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I am almost about to quit League for the same reason I quit Starcraft

Nin10do0014··68 votes·6,798 views

I apologize for the angry rant, but I am really frustrated at the state of balance right now, and it has been like this for too long. It's just like in Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty, where one of the races ALWAYS had one frustratingly hard strategy that was always played. I got sick of how Blizzard refused to acknowledge how it made the game a lot more boring to play due to the repetitiveness of facing the same strategy over and over. I'm starting to see this pattern in League.

Currently, my role, the Jungler, has been gutted, and the promised "Jungle diversity" that Riot wanted has not even appeared. Sure, there is diversity in strategy thanks to the Tier-2 Jungle Items, which I will give credit to Riot. However, when it comes to the Champion Pool... er... Puddle, it's quite the opposite, and it has been like this for months now. Jarvan and Vi are notorious for being the strongest right now, not because of how strong they are, but how weak everyone else has become. I'm sick of seeing the same two champions banned every Ranked game. I'm sick of seeing Jarvan or Vi picked every game. I'm tired of how weak some of my favorite Junglers are because of the fundamental test of the Jungle: surviving the damn creeps. Even high-level players, like Gbay, Stonewall008, and FoxDrop have expressed their discontent about the state of the Jungle.

The Jungle has been stagnant for too long. Too many Junglers have been shafted while the top-tier Junglers remain at their high point. Riot's answer to this has been to nerf the Jungle repeatedly in hopes of knocking down the top-tier Junglers down several steps. Instead, what happens each time is that the top-tier Junglers get knocked down a couple steps while everyone else gets knocked down the whole flight of stairs. When will we see changes that help everyone get back up so we can see diversity again?

126 Comments

Volt Cruelerz35 votes

The PBE has lots of wonderful changes incoming. Just hold on a bit longer.

SquirrellyOtter11 votes

Doesn't really fix the OP's point though: the meta junglers will still benefit from the changes more effectively than the rest, because the meta junglers right now are crazy effective at how they impact games and edge other junglers out.

Sightless6620 votes

How are the meta junglers going to benefit from buffs to Nautilus and the reintroduction of the %bonus health item more than tanks will? They didn't use juggernaut when it had % health, so I don't think they'll be jumping to purchase cinderhulk now.

The meta junglers might still be too strong after these changes, but these changes will actually help tanks more than the bruiser brigade.

Definitely Bait5 votes

I could see Cinderhulk + 1 damage item then full tank builds working quite well on Vi. A lot of her toolkit's strength is the initiation / peel and armor shred. Not to mention that sometimes She already builds full tank (Squishy teams) so it'll just be extra damage / clear speed and health.

Sightless662 votes

She could build that, or she build Warrior. Warrior enchant does the job perfectly fine for her, so she's not really getting anything from Cinderhulk she isn't getting from Warrior. I'd rather have warrior in most games, particularly since the early damage is much more valuable for her than the early health is. Tanks are getting a lot more from having Cinderhulk than bruisers are.

gr8job1 votes

And besides, if you're building tank, why wouldn't you just play a damn tank who benefits better from defensive items in the first place?

IcyPepper1 votes

Vi's passive and disruptive kit makes building tanky a good idea for squishy teams. She's going to dish it out with her W passive, she can take it with her normal passive, and she's just beefier. Not all champions have one set build path.

Hell, even tanky Sona makes a decent support in a very niche situation.

Definitely Bait1 votes

{quoted}

Vi's passive and disruptive kit makes building tanky a good idea for squishy teams. She's going to dish it out with her W passive, she can take it with her normal passive, and she's just beefier. Not all champions have one set build path.

Hell, even tanky Sona makes a decent support in a very niche situation.

Well said, you pretty much pegged the situation I was thinking of on the head.

Kingsgrave2 votes

{quoted}

I could see Cinderhulk + 1 damage item then full tank builds working quite well on Vi. A lot of her toolkit's strength is the initiation / peel and armor shred. Not to mention that sometimes She already builds full tank (Squishy teams) so it'll just be extra damage / clear speed and health.

Yeah but why wouldn't she want Warrior? It gives CDR and Armor Penetration. She almost always buys Warrior + Trinity or Warrior + Botrk anyway. She doesn't benefit that much comparatively with Cinderhulk/Juggernaut.

The only one I could see building it would be Jarvan, and even then Warrior seems like it benefits him more.

kunkudunk1 votes

The Nautilus changes are kinda nerfs to his clear speed actually. W was his main clear tool and he has to max it first to not lose to much health. The w buffs don't help his early clear since he only has one point in it till lvl 8. Sure it's a buff to his late game, but his late game was always fine.

Sightless661 votes

I've played it on the PBE. You're not going to max W first when these changes come out. Max E first, and you clear quicker, and lose less health because you clear quicker. The shield damage has never been great in the jungle because of how quickly it pops, so having the damage in E instead works fine. I actually like his early jungle more now. It works out fine too since you don't really need huge tankiness early, you just need whatever will help most in a gank or small skirmish. Getting W maxed later when you have the max hp to really make it stronger is fine.

kunkudunk1 votes

Hmm ok, good to know. Idk if I like it or not but it should be an overall buff for late game.

PaperMache71 votes

Except a lot of the changes are direct buffs to tank junglers?

SquirrellyOtter4 votes

Nerfing the jungle's damage and increasing gold amounts is a buff to all junglers, not just tanks. So in that sense, nothing is really changing about mixing up the meta. Besides, shouldn't a high-damage jungle be a reason encouraging tank junglers to dominate the meta? Obviously that's not the case, which proves jungle damage, while a symptom of an unhealthy jungle that suppresses certain junglers, isn't what's holding tank junglers down.

The coming changes from Juggernaut to Cinderhulk are awesome. But I have to wonder how Riot thought the Juggernaut enchant was a worthwhile upgrade to begin with, compared to Warrior, Magus,or Devourer.

kunkudunk3 votes

The reason a high damage jungle doesn't encourage a tank meta is tanks can't tank in the early levels as for whatever reason they have lower base stats than many fighters. I mean I believe ganglank still has the highest level 1 health and while he may not need nerfs (buffs if anything) he definately shouldn't be bulkier than tanks.

SquirrellyOtter2 votes

Lowering the jungle's damage still doesn't fix that problem for jungle diversity. A proper fix would be to give tank junglers better stats. Lowering the jungle's damage helps everyone and therefore changes nothing about the status quo.

kunkudunk1 votes

Oh I've said this for a long time, slight increase in armor and hp regen would allow tanks to actually tank damage as they clear.

Llanite1 votes

There will be always a strongest, I don't really see the point. Sure we can nerf Ls, nerf Vi, nerf J4, then Fiddle will become meta, nerf him then Shyv/Elise take over, one cycle later LS will rise again due to everyone has been nerfed.

THe change would make tank jg viable, and that's what matters.

Nin10do00144 votes

While I am delighted to hear about the Jungle buffs, I do believe that a little more should be done to alleviate some of the problems that have been existing for quite a while. For some of the Junglers with weaker first clears, the changes do not significantly alleviate their biggest issues. These changes merely make it easier after recalling from the brutal first clear.

Raptamei5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Volt Cruelerz,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iARjmo8d,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-03-03T05:13:34.826+0000)

The PBE has lots of wonderful changes incoming. Just hold on a bit longer.

If Riot didn't break it, they wouldn't have to fix it. That's not "wonderful".

SEKAI12 votes

This is my vent and rant. I am also pretty close in quitting LoL after my years of participation.

I just decided today, I will wait for the next patch which is supposedly the first step towards a right direction by buffing tanky junglers and all that, if they botch next patch or the one after that, I am quitting LoL entirely.

I have spent $45 on LoL which most people pay triple A titles at around this price tag or lower anyway, also I have spent 4 years on this game, hence I have every right to feel dissatisfied by their delivery.

4 years, Riot, you would never understand, you would never cease to use the lowest benchmarks you can find while hoping everybody would just let it pass and you would never actually look at your game and say "hey, I think we're really doing it wrong how do we fix it?"

4 years of my dedication on this game, and now my patience is really running out. It's only getting worse and worse, I mean look at this season, look at the most recent few patches, what is this shiet? I have had enough of the bs that is the balance in this game (which plays a BIG role in ANY game), what are you DOING?

S2 had it's share of good and bad, then came S3, S4 and now S5 why is it only becoming worse as you go on? All the key issues like lack of item variety, mobile vs immobile, melee vs ranged, resource vs no resource, meta enforcing, knee jerk nerfs/buffs and BIGPLAY$ whoring and MORE, why are they NEVER properly addressed? Did you even try fixing them? Why is there BARELY improvement over the 5+ years development AT ALL??

So Now I will only give you ONE more chance to prove yourself, that'll be the final.

I know my money and 1 single player's existence means completely Nothing in the grand scheme of things, I just wish the idea of "everybody counts" can hopefully pile up and finally slap them in the face so they can get the message and wake up one day.

/rant

Zarxis9 votes

The 5.5 jungle changes should give some less-safe (in terms of sustain/ability to survive the first clear) junglers more breathing room, along with providing truly tanky junglers with a way to stack health. It's a step in the right direction, though I believe that Jarvan, Vi, and Lee Sin should all take some heavier nerfs than the ones we're seeing on the PBE (no nerfs for Lee Sin at all... Riot's favoritism is showing, as usual).

Sassmast3r1 votes

Do you happen to know where I can see what the 5.5 jungler changes are going to be, or perhaps you could tell me? I've been wanting to use Diana jungle now for a while but she NEVER does good in the jungle, so I'm curious if this might end up making it a little less difficult for her to jungle.

Zarxis1 votes

{quoted}

Do you happen to know where I can see what the 5.5 jungler changes are going to be, or perhaps you could tell me? I've been wanting to use Diana jungle now for a while but she NEVER does good in the jungle, so I'm curious if this might end up making it a little less difficult for her to jungle.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/ If you like Sunfire Cape on your jungle Diana, you'll probably like the jungle item enchantment (Cinderhulk) that Riot's bringing in to help tanky junglers. If you like stacking a lot of health on your jungle Diana, you'll love it. Some of the jungle monsters (the Raptors and Gromp) are having their damage reduced; it'll be less difficult to clear the jungle for all champions. I might try to bring back jungle Twitch, personally.

Sassmast3r1 votes

Omg I can't wait for their damage to be reduced. It's so incredibly difficult to clear the jungle as Diana. Quick question, why would I ever get Diana sunfire cape? She's not designed as a tank, but rather an AP burst assassin.

Zarxis1 votes

{quoted}

Omg I can't wait for their damage to be reduced. It's so incredibly difficult to clear the jungle as Diana. Quick question, why would I ever get Diana sunfire cape? She's not designed as a tank, but rather an AP burst assassin.

Her E provides a fair amount of disruption/CC, and her shield allows her to ignore a moderate amount of damage. You don't have to build her as a full tank (not enough damage or CC) or a full-AP assassin (no escapes); bruiser Diana is a possibility. Example: Abyssal Scepter is a fairly good item on Diana because she's a melee AP character. Cinderhulk/Sunfire Cape synergize with Abyssal Scepter because they do magic damage, and your Abyssal Scepter is lowering your enemies' magic resistance.

I won't claim to know better than anyone else here; I'm not a Diana player, just a theory-crafter. Doesn't Diana typically build a fair amount of health (Rylai's, Rod of Ages, perhaps Liandry's?) to survive jumping into the enemy team? Cinderhulk should give her a little boost in survivability (bonus %max health) while not lowering her damage overmuch (burning passive). (Personally, I'm not a fan of Sunfire Cape. It's not as stat-efficient as its alternatives.)

Sassmast3r1 votes

Actually, I don't hardly ever see Diana's build with any health. I usually see: Zhonya's, Rabadons, Lich Bane, Guardian Angel (whatever the revive thingy is called), Nashors Tooth, and SOMETIMES the last item is defensive, but not always. Maybe it's just me though :P

vIbvdOwbko5 votes

sry but u have no hope of getting any riot response

riot rarely responds here so if ur waiting for a riot response to console u, u better just quit

Nin10do001427 votes

I am just ranting. I do not even expect Riot responses.

I have a right to voice my opinion, and I wish to express my discontent at the state of the game.

SmokingPuffin3 votes

When will we see changes that help everyone get back up so we can see diversity again?

On PBE now.

RisottoNero3 votes

It's always been the same. Pick whatever jungler you want in your games and let the pros spam the same 4 champions all the time.

Silents4293 votes

Why not simply. Not rant on the forums?

Next patch they are actually nerfing the Jungle camps, Buffing tanks, and generally cleaning up on some loose ends, you know. Actually fixing the jungle.

All your rant serves to do is make everyone pissed off again, and upvote because they agree, not because it is true, and then nothing actually gets solved other then you getting upvotes.

Oh your complaining about the jungle, balance, Vi, J4 and threatening to quit league? Well I never hear that a dozen times a day.

Dengeden2 votes

Can't survive the jungle, huh? Well, I hate to break it to you but that's your own fault. I won't deny that Juggernaut needs a buff but if your problem is staying alive, then you're the problem. And don't just ignore/deny the buffs that a lot of low tier junglers have received and will receive. The jungle is a problematic "lane" to balance because 24/7 risk-free farming shouldn't be rewarded with immense power, in any sense of the word. In an ideal jungle, you as a jungler need to either snowball or shut down an enemy champion. Junglers who just want to stack up until mid/late game should have a clear weakness (and don't even start on "mobile fighters have no weaknesses"). Then there's the whole "why play them jungle when I can go mid/top?" problem.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvb1 votes

afk farming jungle doesn't work, and never has. The amount of lane pressure needed to not straight lose a game is absurd when facing any of the dominant bruisers. The gold and xp income will never match solo lanes unless you're getting some godly counterjungling done. Otherwise, you need kill/assist money/exp to stay relevant.

Because of the global pressure requirements, you have to take massive risks. Every gank has a good chance to fail. What if my laners fuck up their execution. What if I fuck mine up. What if the enemy jungler shows up? If I gank a losing lane, it's an uphill battle to keep from trading kills, assuming we don't just give a up a kill.

Honestly, do you really believe that low tier junglers have been buffed? What has been buffed? Next patch is the first patch with any sort of promise ASSUMING cinderhulk makes it in. This still doesn't address the broken 1st clear, which for a lot of junglers, is still hell and extremely vulnerable to the enemy support wandering in and killing you.

Dengeden1 votes

I'm 99% certain that it did work with release Devourer/Feral Flare. If you keep up wards to somewhat mitigate that pressure, that is. Regardless, what you said is kind of my point, a jungler shouldn't (or can't) emerge from the jungle with more power than a solo laner. If you're a tank, that's problematic for you. Your job is to serve as a damage sponge but you can't be as oppressive as a Maokai with a fully stacked RoA. It's not like any jungler is exempt from the whole "if I gank, we might die" problem. Fighters need to rely on their mobility to get out (which they might have already used to gap close), tanks have their tenacity and bulk to get out.

Erm yes, there were number buffs to low tier junglers, that's a fact. There are soooo many ways to avoid this "broken 1st clear". Use your freaking trinket, start top side, start at the buff, do scuttle crab... Either way, that argument is stupidly ad hoc. Of course you're gonna have problems if you face one more person than expected. If the top laner is hiding in a side bush, you're gonna have problems. Same thing if the enemy duo lane (or just the support) go top. This neither means that Rito doesn't care about the 3 lanes nor that you need a level 1 dash to go to any lane.

Colgate Gator2 votes

They are actually addressing the jungle situation in the PBE, supposedly there will be a shift of power in the next patch.

cookiesforu2 votes

Good riddance. This game is awesome and balance is being achieved more so than a few years ago. They're making it harder for a single champion to carry a game now. Forcing team play and making players better at objective control. Get better maybe? Encourage your team to work together and don't belittle anybody or blame anybody even if it seems to be blatantly their fault. You can actually win almost every game you seem to be losing if you avoid the mindset of "this is gg".

Those pro players that "complain about the new jungle" (as you say) also state that anybody can become platinum/diamond with practice (foxdrop says you can carry yourself to plat no problem with lee sin, he's not broken/banned in the jng just high skill cap). If you got to plat/diamond and then complained about the jungle I'd take your opinion into consideration. Your complaining from the bottom that its broken whereas those guys already climbed to the top and express their opinion from the top.

Yours is the opinion from the bottom from somebody who can't even manipulate the game to get to top (by playing vi or J4 or w/e you say is "easy" to play, you're not at the top so obviously not as easy as you think to carry with these so called "easy" junglers?)

WhereTheNamesAt2 votes

Look at the current pbe changes…heavy breathing

mjack331 votes

{quoted}

Look at the current pbe changes…heavy breathing

They changed the tank jungle item into a sunfire capish thing and they added a stattik shiv like item for ap users.

...heavy breathing

WhereTheNamesAt2 votes

{quoted}

They changed the tank jungle item into a sunfire capish thing and they added a stattik shiv like item for ap users.

...heavy breathing

Did you even look at all the buffs to tank junglers??? You can't be that dense...

junglerboy162 votes

I feel your pain as a fellow jungle main, but there are currently some major jungle changes on the PBE (and they're not blanket nerfs this time!) that are targeted at very directly buffing tank junglers and also most junglers who suffer on their first clear (mostly direct nerfs to jungle camp damage and a buff to some camps' gold rewards). It has certainly been rotten for a while now, but things are on the up turn.

Stonington1 votes

I really like the new jungle because bruisers were nerfed so heavily. There's a lot of early game jungle routes to take, different styles of invades with lower risk. Which junglers are too weak for you right now?

Sightless667 votes

I really like the new jungle because bruisers were nerfed so heavily.

I've been feeling like bruisers have actually been the best options this season. Jarvan, Vi, Lee Sin, Rek'sai. These have been the strongest champions in the jungle recently.

AP junglers have pretty much disappeared, and while tanks are still playable, they've gotten a bit worse with the introduction of the new jungle (something that the buffs next patch might help alleviate). Champions like Naut and Zac are particularly mediocre. You can technically win with them, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

Stonington1 votes

{quoted}

I've been feeling like bruisers have actually been the best options this season. Jarvan, Vi, Lee Sin, Rek'sai. These have been the strongest champions in the jungle recently.

AP junglers have pretty much disappeared, and while tanks are still playable, they've gotten a bit worse with the introduction of the new jungle (something that the buffs next patch might help alleviate). Champions like Naut and Zac are particularly mediocre. You can technically win with them, but you're putting yourself at a disadvantage.

I couldn't disagree more. Naut and Zac were pretty mediocre last season as well. If anything, this season has buffed Zac since there's no spirit stone to give everyone amazing jungler sustain. Hell Nautilus was mediocre all through season 3 as well.

I feel because the early clears are so difficult, particularly for bruiser junglers it lets other junglers like Diana, Malzahar, or Zac clear the jungler for longer without giving up so much map pressure. This allows them to get to level 6 without having the lanes completely fail because of the enemy jungler ganks. Those three junglers can also do a full clear or more without backing for their jungle item.

If anything, a lot of nonbruiser junglers are much stronger than they've ever been.

Retillin6 votes

No, I'm sorry I don't see it. Bruisers have been the best junglers of season 5 so far. Outside of something like Fid in the jungle, AP is really weak because of the clears. For example you pick Diana, she is a bruiser (who happens to be AP). And is rather good with clears. But she struggles vs the other bruisers early. Unless you are just better than your opponent. Can junglers other than bruisers work? Yeah, but over all the bruiser "class" (for lack of a better word) is over all the best at the jungle in S5.

SEKAI7 votes

I really like the new jungle because bruisers were nerfed so heavily.

Err........

While S4 had its share of stupid things (even though there was barely anything going on), at least its jungle scene was 5x better than what we have today, you could jungle with assassins, tanks, bruisers, some gimmick mage jungle here and there hell even adc's could jungle. This is what we call "diversity" people, not today's jungle where only 3 are actually viable and competitive.

There's a lot of early game jungle routes to take, different styles of invades with lower risk

You're living in the wrong season bud, I am pretty sure of that.

agbudar1 votes

and im here sitting playing WW and nunu soloing drag at lvl 2-3

Celeste Benal1 votes

In the amount of time it takes you to solo dragon at lvl 2-3, you could have farmed your entire jungle at least once more and made far more XP and gold.

tldr: If you solo Dragon at level 2/3, you're doing it wrong.

Serpents Embrace1 votes

Broodlord infestor never really lets you go. If you faced it once it will haunt you to the end of your days...

Nin10do00141 votes

DO NOT MENTION THAT CURSED ARMY COMPOSITION!!

GAHHH!!!! I STILL HAVE NIGHTMARES!!!

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