Riot wants diversity in the Jungle, but...

Nin10do0014··58 votes·5,383 views

But the Hunter's Machete upgrade is being raised 100 gold. 100 gold may not sound like much because normally it is not a lot. However, in the early game, 100 gold is the difference between going back to play with an important item or going back with insufficient supplies to sustain your play. Changing the price of items like this benefits or hinders laners quite significantly, but laners have the ability to alleviate this problem by practicing their mechanics well in order to maximize their income. When this change is applied to the Jungle, however, we are talking about a different scenario.

Junglers, unlike Laners, do not have the luxury of having a stable income of minions. We are like freelancing workers who pick up money wherever we can, so that means we never have a reliable source of gold; we can get a surge of money from ganks, dueling, or power-farming, or we can get demolished from failed ganks, jungle invades, and the brutality of 4 chickens. Thus, being said, increasing an early-game Jungle Item has much more drastic consequences for Junglers, meaning a 100 gold increase on our items hurts us more than laners. What makes this even worse is that because of the drastic changes to the Jungle in Season 5, many Junglers need to recall after taking our third camp, meaning those Junglers will recall with 350 gold in their pockets. There are not many Junglers who, with standard Jungle Runes and Masteries, can naturally stay in the Jungle long enough to get an extra 100 gold for the first Tier-2 Jungle Item, and there are other Junglers who need to take unorthodox or gimmicky Runes and Masteries consisting of Spell Vamp runes and masteries.

And why is this bad? Because we already have a small group of Junglers who have not been been suffering as much, Jungle diversity has been decreasing because that small elite group of Junglers are outclassing everyone else. Why play x Jungler if Fiddlesticks can outsustain everyone or if Jarvan can do it without getting beaten up by the Jungle creeps? With the 100 gold increase to the Tier-2 Jungle Item, the small group of Junglers who can stay in the Jungle may not be affected, but anyone who has been suffering in the Jungle will be playing catch-up from the beginning of the game as they will recall without enough gold to buy the most important item in the game for them. The strong Junglers are being left basically scratched while everyone else is being nerfed severely.

Now what is my problem with this? I should not feel obligated to play x Jungler because that Jungler outclasses so many others. I should play my Jungler because I want to, and I should be rewarded for playing my Jungler (unless it's Urgot). However, this change means that some of my favorite Junglers, like Nocturne and Nautilus will be outclassed, and I will be punished for playing a champion who cannot keep up with the small group of Junglers who can find means to reliably acquire 100 more gold before recalling. In fact, I am being punished for playing a champion who cannot clear 4-5 Jungle camps before recalling. The Jungle is now punishing champion choices, and that is unprecedented. Riot has never released a change which promotes a champion choice while punishing players for choosing other champions.

I would like to hear everyone's opinion on this matter, but please keep this civil. Respect my opinion, and I will give you the same respect.

99 Comments

Orders11 votes

I really hope they don't go through with this change.

The double Smite feature really helped a lot of junglers and IIRC Riot wants to diversify the jungle so that more champs can play in there.

Increasing the price of the Hunter's upgrade seems counter-intuitive.

Raptamei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Prime Tempest,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=sK3A2FlL,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2015-01-25T20:52:22.114+0000)

I really hope they don't go through with this change.

The double Smite feature really helped a lot of junglers and IIRC Riot wants to diversify the jungle so that more champs can play in there.

Increasing the price of the Hunter's upgrade seems counter-intuitive.

If Riot wanted to diversify the jungle, they would have made it easier, not harder. Remember how people looked forward to the new jungle because it would no longer allow just anyone to jungle?

Dengeden1 votes

An objection: Junglers no longer need to get both blue and red for EXP. Losing your buffs no longer puts you as behind as it used to. In that regard jungling got easier because starving the enemy jungler is pretty much impossible. Making the jungle clear easier would make the top junglers even better because they would have even more room for plays. This way all the junglers have the same restrictions: All junglers (let's ignore Elise ,Pantheon ,Fiddlesticks ,Warwick) get crushed before backing if they don't decide to level 2 gank.

Original Quitter1 votes

Voli can also clear the jungle indefinitely without back if you do it right.

Alpharite1 votes

Unfortunately Riot's team of monkeys made it so junglers can't jungle.

DragonJLove1 votes

well doublke smite didnt really matter to me bc i would use it and the recall by the time i got back to the next camp smite was rready to use again

coppinslinger9 votes

I don't know about you, but this is actually a bigger nerf to LeeSin and JarvanIV than anybody. Both these champions get to less than 50% hp after clearing 2 buffs + 1 camp and struggle to clear a 4th camp to get that extra 100g for the item. Their clears only pick-up once they get some long-swords and their jungle upgrade. Before that the jungle beats them to all shit.

A lot of tanky junglers can full clear the jungle on their first go becuase of their AoE clears and damage reduction, sheilds, sustain, etc. Zac Amumu Chogath Malphite Sejuani Vi can clear more camps on their first clear than Lee and J4. Lee and J4 are priority right now because they can survive their first clear well enough, go on to clear better, and still be able to get a few decent ganks off early on. They aren't picked because they are the best clearing champs. Then we'd all play Shyvana.

I haven't tested Nautilus but Nocturne can definitely do a full clear before backing thanks to his AS, AD, AoE, and sustain.

Just saying. Go into a custom game and try to clear 4 camps and Lee on J4 without a leash. It's not that fun.

This forces Lee and J4 to further choose between early ganks and farming for the items they need. Or to choose between taking AD runes for more potent ganks, or taking AS runes for better clears (forcing these junglers to take AS will hurt their early ganks considerably).Tanky/farm junglers that didn't typically gank early anyways aren't harmed by this.

Nin10do00142 votes

I know, and I am not saying Jarvan has the greatest sustain, but this is also a huge nerf to a bunch of Junglers who are already struggling. Also, what you said is true, many champions need a leash just to survive 3 camps, and that is my point. Those same champions who need their leash cannot reliably get 100 extra gold in order to buy their Tier-2 Jungle Item.

Some of the Champions you mentioned who CAN get the 100 gold, they will be even stronger because of this change. While everyone else is recalling and playing catch-up, the select few who have good sustain will be ahead in items.

coppinslinger2 votes

The only junglers I can think of that are doing really badly right now are Evelynn and MonkeyKing and maybe Khazix (who actually takes a lot of damage in the jungle right now).

Possibly Nautilus like you said, but I'm sure if you take the right rune page/masteries on him you will be able to clear 4 camps and back fine and get your item.

Honestly this is a negligible change. Are there any other junglers you think will be absolutely destroyed by this change? I can't think of any really.

Auz the Ripper2 votes

I've tested Nautilus and he does decently as long as you get a good leash, take AS marks and the points in the AS mastery (they help his clear Alot)

Getting invaded is his biggest worry and that's not really a problem anymore

Alpharite1 votes

At least Wukong can be played Top, the other 2 have been gutted HARD.

coppinslinger2 votes

Yup.

Riot needs to rework them (AGAIN LMAO) or just straight buff their numbers in the survivability category.

Riot doesn't really seem to LIKE it when they do well, so just change their kits to something you don't hate? As it is right now, I just never see them in general because their early-game is INCREDIBLY harsh.

SanKakU1 votes

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MrPerson104 votes

{quoted}

I have never seen an instance where a 'leash' actually helps the jungle champion past the very camp they get help for. So what's the point? You can't have them babysitting you all game long, so why ask for help on the first camp if you have no business in the jungle to begin with? Crying about the game being harder isn't going to improve your performance. Meanwhile, your ganks are probably ineffective due to you pulling the other members of your team away from the first wave of the game, resulting in a massive swing of power in the opponent's favor.

Not sure if you're talking out of your ass or if you just play strictly shaco jungle who takes no jungle damage anyways. Having less damage taken from the first can allow you to take the 4th jungle camp, and in some cases you may even barely make the 3rd camp. Speeds up your clear. Allows you to be present earlier. Missing one minion in the first wave is usually negligible in bot lane where you may get lvl 2 slightly after your opponent but you should be able to avoid having that make a massive difference. Chances are they still have 5-6 minions still in that wave as well, so what you miss out on isn't nearly as much of a cost to you as it is in top lane.

SanKakU1 votes

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Nin10do00141 votes

Please, please. Keep this civil. I agree that MrMerson was harsh, but let's not add more gasoline to the fire.

Alpharite1 votes

Anytime two league players have interaction, it tends to degenerate pretty quickly lol

MrPerson101 votes

{quoted}

Let me get this straight, you curse at me on a public forum, you play a jungle champion with not a single mastery in restoration or regeneration except for Dangerous Game, which has zero effect on basic jungle strategy, and you think your opinion matters at this point? I would also like to point out that your champion cannot regenerate or restore himself with his abilities, and your runes don't have any of that, either. The only thing you have going for you in regards to keeping yourself alive in the jungle is your machete early on. Really, you're being unreasonable.

I'm going to proceed under the assumption that you're mentally challenged. Firstly, I'd like to point out the fact that when I do jungle it's with Master Yi built as a bruiser, Aatrox or Warwick. All of which have more than enough sustain for a full jungle clear and scale off AS, meaning AS rune pages are coincidentally a lot more useful than life steal on champs that don't need it. You can go ahead and check that if you'd like. Moving on, I hope you realize that most of us understand the jungle and how to stay alive. Taking an extra 2hp5 isn't going to make a difference by your second clear. Hell it hardly makes one in your first. Take less damage from neutral monsters is always good, oh wait that's what you have a machete for. Coincidentally it does that so you can free up your mastery points for more armor which reduces jungle damage to begin with (let's not forget champs or anything) - and yes, it's enough that it's noticeably more than taking alternative masteries.

Next time you talk out your ass, at least try to have your facts straight and be coherent first.

Alpharite1 votes

Your first sentence was fucking gold!

MrPerson101 votes

{quoted}

Your first sentence was fucking gold!

;)

43161549_DEL1 votes

Just saying. Go into a custom game and try to clear 4 camps and Lee on J4 without a leash. It's not that fun.

Well in a normal game you generally get a leash unless youre playing shaco. So please tell me how that is important in a game? If the jungler himself/herself feels they dont need a leash then that is their own issue. the double smite really helps, allows level 4 drag on udyr, lvl 5-6 drag on elise, lvl 5 drag on shaco, lvl 7 drag on eve. so increasing the gold price will slow them down a bit. sure I feel that some junglers feel a bit slower in their leveling but thats about it based on camp clearing.

coppinslinger3 votes

All I wanted to point out is that j4 and Lee comparatively suffer more in their first clear than a lot of other junglers that are considered "unviable" or "not strong."

This change really has no affect on jungle diversity because of that.

43161549_DEL1 votes

In a ranked match a yesterday I was up against a J4 jungle as elise, cleared faster and was able to prepare for a mid gank from his side of the jugnge, however he almost killed me even though I was 2 levels ahead with new smite, so how is he suffering? Lee sin is the same way, you start at the right spot you are perfectly fine.

coppinslinger2 votes

I was only talking about their first clear of the jungle.

Obviously overall he is a really strong champion at the moment. His first clear gets him lower than a lot of other champions though.

43161549_DEL1 votes

im guessing this is based on your experience? well try getting the shield lvl 2 from my experience it helps quite a bit

coppinslinger2 votes

That's based on my experience. Obviously his clear can be made much better with the right runes and masteries, but I think the best runes/masteries for skirmishing and ganking involve straight AD marks and Quints and 21/9/0.

Obviously if you go 9/21/0 or take some more armor or AS in the runes you'd have an easier time. But that significantly reduces J4's ganking and skirmishing powers as he brings less burst/damage to the table.

That's just my opinion on the optimal way to play J4 though. Other people might build him/play him differently.

43161549_DEL1 votes

I just use a a quite basic rune page for all my junglers, 3 atk speed quints, a mix of ad and atk speed reds, scaling health yellows, and mr blues. my masteries are mainly damage with 9 in utility, 3 move speed, 3 mana regen, 1 ward, 1 potion length, 1 buff last longer.

TO ALL THOSE WHO DOWNVOTED. dont down vote if you thought I was being "rude" I was not. I was simply stating something from my experience with him. Before you downvote cause you think its stupid try it. IT MIGHT JUST WORK

MPendragon1 votes

{quoted}

I just use a a quite basic rune page for all my junglers, 3 atk speed quints, a mix of ad and atk speed reds, scaling health yellows, and mr blues. my masteries are mainly damage with 9 in utility, 3 move speed, 3 mana regen, 1 ward, 1 potion length, 1 buff last longer.

TO ALL THOSE WHO DOWNVOTED. dont down vote if you thought I was being "rude" I was not. I was simply stating something from my experience with him. Before you downvote cause you think its stupid try it. IT MIGHT JUST WORK

On some of my AD junglers such as Jarvan 4 / Vi, I use this:

10 AD 10% IAS 5% CDR 9 Armour 9MR@18

I didn't downvote you by the way, I rarely downvote anyone, unless they are a complete tool shack.

43161549_DEL1 votes

that seems like a good rune page :D.

never said YOU downvoted, i was just stating it for those who did cause obviously they had an issue with my comment

coppinslinger1 votes

Seems like a solid rune-page for the new jungle!

I just prefer

3x AD Quints 9x AD Marks

Because that gives me the most burst in skirmishes, ganks and fights in the early-game. I usually go Trailblazer anyways so I don't really need the extra clearing power in my runes.

Also I like to stack brutalizers for the CDR if I'm doing well, haha

Brutalizer -> Warrior Enchant Brutalizer -> Black Cleaver

and then another Brutalizer if I'm doing REALLY well or I just want to one-shot people with my E-Q-Auto-Ult-Auto

Triple Brutalizer is honestly the funniest way to build J4 right now if you get ahead.

meatjunjun8 votes

The season 5 jungle is a joke. The thing I hate most is, because the camps are stronger, it takes longer to clear, meaning less exp. I hate that it's so easy for the jungler to fall below the support in terms of levels... How the hell is it fair that the support is higher level than the jungler just because they can stand next to their adc?

Before I used to think that forcing the enemy laner to use flash was a win. Now I think this is a loss instead...

Why? Because if I gank TOP and the enemy burns flash, I just wasted a good 20-30 secs that I could've been farming. Add to the fact that if the enemy jungler ganks MID/BOT at the same time and succeeds, he's most likely a level ahead of me.

After that, I just have to loosen up my sphincter and let them have their way with me. Cause I'm practically the enemy junglers b*tch at this point.

DragonJLove1 votes

well i fall behind all the time but then latter on when everyone is around 1o i tend to speed clearing camps faster then fighting to to see who has the highest level for a long time

SanKakU3 votes

[deleted]

I Main Swain20 votes

People aren't backing asap to get the upgrade, they are backing because their hp level demands backing, meaning their income is limited to a specified amount at first back, which is now not enough to purchase an item which they really have to have to stay in the game as far as gold, xp, and jungle pressure are concerned.

LeeDark2 votes

You have to recall at some point, so the time you spend doing so evens out either way. The jungle respawns slower, so simply straight farming it isn't all that viable. As soon as you upgrade the machete, every camp becomes worth more. In general, given the level of health after three camps for most junglers, and the amount of gold they gain per camp by upgrading as soon as possible, it is better to back quickly.

fromdusktilldawn3 votes

and when you play non meta junglers ;__;

Nin10do00145 votes

Indeed. Non-meta champions are what help diversify the strategy behind League of Legends. Not to mention, it is very fun to play unorthodox champions regardless of position like Viktor Top, Jungle Leona, Mid Lane Jarvan, Support Malphite, and ADC Thresh. Additionally, many popular strategies originated from unorthodox champion selection such as Top Lane Lulu, Support Annie, and Support Morgana.

Alpharite1 votes

ADC Thresh is just stupid. The others are off-meta but still alright (especially J4 Mid and Viktor Top), but Thresh ADC is gimping your team and is no better than trolling.

DrCyanide2 votes

I played a game the other day where the enemy jungler started duoing in lane rather than in the jungle. With the price increase, I suspect many junglers may have to "adapt, or be removed" from viable play. No, I don't think the solo lanes will like it, but it might have to be a "you let me do this and I'll favor you with ganks, and if you don't I won't gank for you" thing.

The stated reason for the price hike is that junglers who get first blood snowball too fast, but the change seems like a huge hit to any jungler who can't get first blood. It also locks in the junglers who can into having to play aggressively early so they can get an upgrade first back.

Neveses2 votes

I agree with this. My fav jungler a IE.. See, have s terribly hard time at the beginning, God forbid I get a bad leash then I would be lucky to clear camps. More often than not that third camp has be below 200 hp. If I were to be invaded, mind you I always ward for my third camp. But if someone comes in SOL if my team doesn't back me up. I think the price for the machete should drop so we can acquire 4 pots again, but that's just me

MPendragon2 votes

Theoretically, you start Gromp.

1: Leash or no leash, smite gromp, use one health potion. 2: Fight blue. 3: Go kill scuttler, and give yourself some time to regenerate some health. 4: Go back to kill wolf camp, don't use potion. 5: Recall to base.

Ok, now i've been practicing this on an account that isn't even level 30 yet, and i'm able to do what I just described with 1 health potion, sometimes I use the 2nd potion if I didn't get a leash.

I have 530-550 Gold. As it is now,* I can buy my upgrade for 350G and completely fill up on potions*, and even buy a stealth ward or a vision ward if I want to wait around for the extra gold.

With this nerf in the future, I will still be able to upgrade my item and purchase 2-3 more potions.

6: Go back to Red, scout it. Enemy jungler hasn't invaded yet? Go to Golems 7: Smite Greater golem for buff, finish camp, go to Red. 8: Ward bush at Red so I can see if any enemies are waiting to invade me or take my buffs.

Now I can go numerous routes from here. I might have used 1 potion in between challenging Golems and Red. "Might have"

Can I solo dragon? Safely? Check lanes. Although this should be done while travelling to buffs and during them. Jungle map awareness is like driving a car, you should always be checking your blind spots. Does nobody need my assistance? Continue onto Wraiths or Scuttle, and then reverse.

9: Head back to base, purchase next recipe for jungling item, and then repeat my cycle.

Now I don't know how well this can be done if you start Red side, the wraiths will probably kill you if you challenge them. Yet the wolves will leave you with an inch of your life.


Now as most people are doing it, they are going

Gromp -> Blue -> Wolves

This will generally require that you use both of your health pots, depending on who you are. In most cases, i'm correct. But if you take the time to kill Scuttler before challenging Wolves you should have regenerated enough health to challenge them without requiring that health potion.

What does this mean? Now you have additional gold, and an extra health potion! Woohoo! Now you can buy your jungling item and more health potions to snowball yourself to farming success.

You can PayPal me later.

Nin10do00141 votes

This is actually an interesting route, but I would like to ask about your Experience rate. Getting gold in the new Jungle isn't as hard as it traditionally was, but experience is much harder to come by.

MPendragon1 votes

{quoted}

This is actually an interesting route, but I would like to ask about your Experience rate. Getting gold in the new Jungle isn't as hard as it traditionally was, but experience is much harder to come by.

Level 2 after Gromp, obviously. Level 3 after Greater Wolf, if you killed Scuttle. Level 4 after killing Red camp, if you killed Golem camp.


I know that for a fact because i've done NUMEROUS level 4 Dragon's, and this is my route to prepare myself for that as Vi, since on blue team, I can leap over into Dragon pit right from Red camp, potentially avoiding any detection in the river.

Note: Dragon doesn't give you any experience, and that kind of sucks.

If I do take Dragon, i'm usually low health, so I leap back up over the wall and then TP to base. If my teammates help me out, I might go kill river Scuttle, then go back to Wraith camp before going back to base.

After clearing Gromp again, and potentially Wolf camp or river Scuttle you probably should have hit level 5.

Also Note: I do give assistance to my lanes if they need to back to base, and I usually static farm their lane, so that the minions aren't sacrificed to the tower or deal damage to it. (As you should do. Laners generally get pissed off if you're doing this, and I honestly just tell them to go screw themselves, because they're clearly idiots for not giving farm that will be sacrificed in any event to their teammates.) Lane experience always gives you more experience than jungle experience does, hence why laners generally are higher levels than the jungler is.

zliplus1 votes

Gromp -> Blue -> Red is a more likely (and better) route for anyone not super afraid of getting ganked at red.

MPendragon1 votes

{quoted}

Gromp -> Blue -> Red is a more likely (and better) route for anyone not super afraid of getting ganked at red.

Sure you could do that.

When are you backing to base though? Do you have 21/9 into Support masteries, to get the extended buff times?

If not, which I generally don't, I do in some minor cases, and that's only rarely. If you're losing 45 seconds on your buff timer, just backing up to base, it's really a waste of time that you have that red buff though. And red buff is relatively crucial to super-farming as well as ganking lanes.

What's your take on that?

zliplus1 votes

Sorry, I should have clarified - that route is for 2 main purposes.

  1. If you have a weak early clear, it lets you get both buffs and back without worrying about losing them to a late steal (lane ward covers early steal, your own ward helps protect you when you do red). When you come back, you have the option of smiting birds for a gank.

  2. If you don't have too much trouble clearing, it gives you the option of ganking immediately at level 3 with double buff. Usually you'd need a champ that has over 50% hp and preferably with some health pot left and isn't a terrible ganker (obviously). 0/21/9 is indeed a likely mastery setup for this as well, since it also boosts health pots along with buff times.

azrolator2 votes

Jungle doesn't give enough xp. It can give okay gold but not when you have laners throwing their lanes so you need to go help them from the other side of the map. S5 made camps wait too long between spawn. They already made it so painful first run that it changes the way we have built runes and masteries. AS champs got a big downgrade when they nerfed devourer. Already seeing more team builders waiting on jungles than support anymore. I don't understand all the hate Riot is giving to the junglers. I have mostly given up on playing it. I don't see the point in making it harder to play than it already is.

Aweshumness1 votes

I hear you, but I feel like every change makes a few champions stand out competitively because they stand to gain the most from the changes.

I usually don't mind having to go back and get resupplied. I would have to do it eventually. There's diversity, it's just up to you how you use it. If you don't like going back to base, you should play with a safer jungler. If you don't like playing with the junglers that don't need to go back so often then refuse to do so. I REFUSE to play Fiddle. It's not because I hate Fiddle or anything derogatory about the character or people who play him. I just refuse because I enjoy other junglers.

Nin10do00142 votes

That is the point of my argument. I should not be forced to play a safer jungler because the jungler I enjoy cannot sustain naturally for 4 camps. If Riot releases changes that forces people to play "with a safer jungler," then Riot is diminishing the diversity of the Jungle because the popularity of unsafe junglers will plummet.

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