For once, let's blame Ghostcrawler for something he's actually responsible for!

SaltyToplaneGoat··109 votes·64,864 views

I know these boards tend to focus their discontent with an entire team's or department's decision on a single figurehead, and while occasionally they hit the right figurehead with it, but mostly only with criticism that affects actions that might have been remotely in the area of said figurehead's responsibility, but nothing they themselves did. So in this thread I'll try to pin-point directly what our Mr. Lead Gameplay Dude has messed up - and what is actually his screw up, and not just some random terrible thing that the team as a whole cooked up (like the current Scuttle change).

But for now, let's start by square one, and to see what he is responsible for, we need to know what the job is. Mostly, seemingly "lead" positions in design are not the "boss designers", but it mostly is just normal design with a truckload of management work thrown onto it. Yes sure, in theory you get to have the last word, but your main job is not exactly designing, but rather to keep all the teams currently working on designing in sync, for one so they can work with each other, for the other so everyone is informed what is currently done and what the current overall direction is.

And this direction is where the current issue lies with this game - because when compared to earlier seasons, there has been a certain shift.

This shift has been at the most fundamental aspect when it comes to a game: how the experience is achieved. League of Legend is a game that follows a pattern of empowerment. For one in the simple sense that you, a mere human being, play a POWERFUL CHAMPION, for the other that the game is a contest of power, because to win you need to use that new power to defeat adversaries of the same level. You might call this "competitive empowerment".

However, this is what League seems to have moved away from. Because, this "competitive empowerment" is not the only way you can try to achieve the empowerment of the player. There is another, much - MUCH more simpler way to make people feel strong: by simply letting them stomp everyone else. Some F2P games even made this as a business model: gain a small number of "whales" (aka players who spend a ton), and let them have fun with stomping (or in some rare cases, helping) the non-playing users. However, as this can lead to frustration with the non-paying players, these games need to draw in a constant flow of new players, because they are content for the power-fantasy of the paying users.

And this is where the change in direction comes to mind: In current day you are not supposed to win as a team, but to have this one strong player you get really pumped up and he just steamrolls the rest. The favor assassins gain from the balance team is further proof of that - they get ahead a little and suddenly the entire game revolves around them. Surely fun for the assassin player, not so much for the rest of the players, that now exist not as a "worthy competitors", but just as "fodder" for the assassin player to shred through.

On a more overall level this results in matches no longer being competitive, but just being a one sided stomp - all for this new approach on how to make the "Empowerment" of the player work. Instead of trying to achieve everyone reaching the same level of said empowerment in a single match, now the players have to take turns - one game they stomp, the other they get stomped. Overall, over the course of countless games, you achieve the same result of "total empowerment" (if you could measure it scientifically), but the way how to go about it has drastically changed.

THE "FUN" IS NOW ALWAYS ON THE COST OF THE OTHER PLAYERS, AND NOT DERVIVED FROM THE COMPETITIVE ELEMENT.

And THIS is something that does indeed fall into the responsibilities of a Lead Designer. Individual design workers or pods work on singular champions, or smallg roups of champions, try to tweak items, and make things work in very limited areas, but as the big dog it's the Lead Dude's job the have the great whole in sight. And yes, he kinda does, or else Riot would have fired him long ago for being truly incompetent on his job - but the vision he has for the game is just VASTLY DIFFERENT FROM WHAT THIS GAME ORIGINALLY WAS SUPPOSED TO BE AND WHAT MADE IT SUCCESSFULL IN THE FIRST PLACE.

I can even think of what causes this: most game designers have not learned their craft in an era of direct multiplayer games. I mean, when you look at Ghostcrawler's history before WoW, he has mostly worked on RTS titles (he started with Age of Empires after all). Back in the time, no one was playing these games for a competitive multiplayer - people played the campaign, and the multiplayer was for you and your friends to mess around with during LAN parties (man good old times, when was the last time I had a good old fashioned LAN-party?). At the same time the interaction between players in an RTS is different from the interaction of a players in a MOBA. Oh and WoW is an MMORPG, a genre that started out as mostly single-player/co-op vs AI. as well.

It's kinda the same like with CertainlyT - that guy is probably a downright awesome single-player designer, but in a multiplayer context his works are just atrocious do deal with. For the very same problem that I have said above: champions of that designer are fun for the person playing, at the expense of everyone playing against it. In a single-player game those principles of empowering the player was never an issue - after all the mobs and raid-bosses couldn't and wouldn't do much about it, mostly for the fact that that would require having actual sentience and not just being a pile of fancy pixels with some code under the hood. But, as one might suspect, human players are a bit more complex than that.

This is what this post boils down to: the way Lead Design approaches the goal of Player Empowerment is completly wrong, mostly due to the wrong tools and methods being used. And this DOES have an effect on the overall appeal of the game. (After all Riot's denial to release any official numbers on the active players says more than any released number could possibly do). This is a sign that Ghostcrawler has either no clue on what this game originally was, or he knows, yet tries to force his vision of game design on it, which is however based in paradigms that are completly unfitting for a game like League.

I don't know which one of the two is worse, but it needs to stop before irreperable damage is done.

Just stop being lazy. I know maintaning a competitve empowerment design is harder than just rolling the dice and having on team be the stomp-fodder for the fun of the other, but you know what? DOING THAT IS YOUR JOB. So get it right instead of trying to get a mediocre result with the least effort possible.

136 Comments

Teridax6871 votes

I agree with this. One of the major problems I find with League's current design philosophy is that it appears that there's now a prevalent zero-sum mentality when it comes to implementing fun in League: any win for one player is seen as a loss for another, even when said win applies to simply using an ability. I feel there are three major problems with this mentality: for one, I feel this is simply not true, as I personally believe it's possible to make interaction fun for all, and to have counterplay itself be a source of positive gameplay for all, not just one side or the other. Second, while this wouldn't contradict the premise, if it were true, it would effectively imply that League as a whole generates zero net enjoyment, which is not what you'd want out of any kind of entertainment product. Third, I think the mentality also doesn't apply in practice because there are some situations that generate negative total enjoyment, which I think has been happening at increasing frequency in recent times. In the current stompy environment, for example, it feels horrible every time to get stomped, but past a certain point, stomping itself doesn't feel all that special, certainly not as intense as the opposite feeling. In a League where winning feels decent, but losing feels terrible, it's far less easy to generate solid commitment than it is to simply burn players out, or turn new players away.

Counterplay I think is another large problem in League's modern design philosophy, and I feel that in recent times Riot has kind of unlearned much of what they had previously learned on it. When League launched, counterplay wasn't really conceptualized in a clear manner, and so some matches felt really unfair when certain comps or champions were around. This eventually led Riot to realize that champions need to have more of their power depend upon how they interact with their opponents, and this was the driving principle behind a ton of reworks, as well as quite a few new releases, including the VGUs we've had in the past few years. However, somewhere along the way, someone decided that counterplay wasn't all that important, and so we started receiving an influx of new champions that were severely lacking in counterplay, such as Yasuo, Azir, Kalista, Ekko, and so on. There even was a Riot post where the developers themselves said they'd essentially forgotten to value counterplay on many of their newer champions, and promised to add more later on. Immediately after, however, we received Camille, and Zoe not that long ago, in addition to a whole bunch of reworks that failed completely in making their champions more interactive (namely the Tank Update). It doesn't at all feel like counterplay is treated as a core design pillar; rather, it feels like it's treated like a necessary evil at best, and frequently as an option that can be fudged in the name of cool, flashy mechanics. It also doesn't feel like counterplay is at all a driving principle behind modern releases, when I think it has immense potential to be developed into a source of fun gameplay for both the champion and their opponent. Sion's unwieldy ult gives an incredible rush to the player using it, even when they fail, but is also terrific fun to dodge or simply watch as the Sion faceplants into a wall as his opponent. This is the kind of non-zero-sum enjoyment that good counterplay creates, that we need much more of in League.

On that note, I think a large part of the issue with this mentality, which is also mentioned in the OP, is with the way developers allocate power onto their champions. Rioters in the past have frequently talked about "power without gameplay", and tried to design away from mechanics that merely act as free stats, but more recently it feels like we've entered this similarly immature period of design, in which champions are given gameplay purely through more power and options, rather than truly diverse playstyles. Too many champions are saddled with mobility, CC and damage, even when those are not meant to be strengths they're intended to have, simply because those mechanics are considered "fun" to have. The additional layer to this is that some of these mechanics are so prevalent that they're even considered necessary for a champion to be enjoyable or viable in a competitive environment, which is why so many champions have been given some sort of semi-global gapcloser on their ult. Very little comparative effort is made to generate cool playstyles via limitations, or other drawbacks that force the player to make interesting choices, and that allow opponents more options against them. This is why Riot seems perfectly fine with letting players get every upgrade on Kai'Sa's kit at once, when the original intent was to have her tailor her playstyle, or why champions like Thresh, Yasuo or Zoe get to access essentially every mechanic in the game. In the end, it's caused a great deal many champions to blend into each other, as champions frequently end up with a very similar mix of mechanics with only slight differences in power and implementation. When everyone is given every toy in the box just to feel special, no-one is.

In the end, another major problem with this kind of design is that it's also ended up being incredibly cannibalistic: a common defense of CertainlyT's champions, for example, is that they'd be perfectly fine in a game where every champion was designed in the same way. However, the reason they're not healthy is because they tend to be extremely forgiving of their own mistakes (practically every CertainlyT champion has a ton of different outs and answers to any given situation), while punishing others extremely hard for messing up (champions like Thresh, Yasuo and Zoe all have comboes designed to either kill or severely damage enemies from full health if they get caught by one single effect). Champions like Camille, Kayn, Kai'Sa, etc. follow similar lines of design, and the end result is that they give themselves plenty of agency, while offloading all of their responsibility for providing the same to their opponents. All of these champions rely on their opponent having a similar amount of options and overload in their own design to be healthy, so when they inevitably go up against a champion with fewer answers, it feels like only one side gets to dictate the entire pace of the lane, and sometimes the entire match. It's a different kind of zero-sum design that tries at all costs to make new, individual champions sell well, in exchange for making the game worse and generally more precarious for everyone else. This is also why I don't buy arguments such as "Yasuo is the most popular champion in the game", because ultimately Yasuo isn't the only champion in the game, and his isn't the only popularity that matters, particularly since he's only popular when he cannibalizes a lot of the fun from his opponents. We need design that aims for the long term, and that tries to add fun gameplay for everyone involved, instead of providing fun exclusively for one champion at the expense of all others. It is this very short-sighted, narrow kind of design that I think has become a large part of League's decline over the last few years, and the more Riot follows this unhealthy mentality, the harder it will be to get out of it in the long run.

SaltyToplaneGoat27 votes

That moment when the reply to your post is longer and better written than your original post...

I wish I could upvote this like a billion times so it is always the top response.

Ayame Isaki9 votes

I upvoted it for you. Every little bit helps.

Catastrophic7 votes

It also doesn't feel like counterplay is at all a driving principle behind modern releases, when I think it has immense potential to be developed into a source of fun gameplay for both the champion and their opponent.

This statement really hits home with me, cause I'm a Gangplank one trick, and in top lane I will almost always prefer to face a Riven (skill matchup - favored for riven) or a Fiora (same) over facing Maokai Malphite (Farm lanes mostly, but both win vs GP in early). Because the ability to bait a Riven E by using taunt (feigning Q) or cancelling an auto attack on a barrel to bait a fiora W is just an incredible rush of adrenaline and fun both when it works and when it's called by them! I'm not saying that fiora or riven are flawless designs (nor is GP), but all 3 of those champions offer ways to gain leads through outsmarting them. But outsmarting a maokai W just doesn't yield the same result, because either you can kill him cause you have a bunch of penetration, or you can't kill him and you lose the trade regardless.

3TWarrior7 votes

although lanes are better when it doesn't just come down to who has superior range or durability, there is a problem.

All three of gangplank, riven and Fiora have overloaded kits. Riven used to be universally complained about because she had too much for her to use, then suddenly, every champ started to become like riven and people complained less because she was the least noteworthy of the bunch

I, for instance, hate going against gangplank as any melee-only character because he can shove the lane or force trades in his favor with his barrels (which were just a gimmick that they tacked onto his kit)

I preferred the old gangplank where I could buff my team, run around at crazy speeds and farm significantly with his Q while being an off-carry

the ultimate changes were nice, but the barrel and visual changes ruined one of my favorite champs in my opinion

We Are Venom7 votes

I would like to disagree, but I cannot. You bring up many excellent points, well done.

HarrisonOwns14 votes

"Too many champions are saddled with mobility, CC and damage, even when those are not meant to be strengths they're intended to have, simply because those mechanics are considered "fun" to have. The additional layer to this is that some of these mechanics are so prevalent that they're even considered necessary for a champion to be enjoyable or viable in a competitive environment, which is why so many champions have been given some sort of semi-global gapcloser on their ult."

This is such a massive problem.

They put WAY TOO MUCH into every kit for way too long. They are stuck doing this now or they'll have to go back and nerf all those kits, and they never will.

There's WAY TOO MUCH mobility in this game, way too much CC, way too much everything now.

Puppet33r4 votes

I agree. Can you imagine a game where Riven would not have a stunlock but instead just one source of hard cc(and one slow if it was neccesary), Gangplank who didn't have free ms boosts from just blowing up a barrel(and instead had to either rely on barrel slow or had to get into melee to smack you for this ms boost), Fiora only getting q resets from hitting vitals, Jhin without passive that would shoehorn him into standard ad itemization(god forbid we have an adc that scales differently and has unique build)...The list of powercreep can go on forever with what this game has become.

rtbf2234347214 votes

This game gives a very good competitive experience. But I don't feel like i'm having fun playing it. It gives less and less a fun time to its players. I had fun playing 1 or 2 years ago, but now i'm completely numb about it.

Its just a race to see wich team will be the stomper and which will be the stomped. Its like the 300 vs xerxes in the Battle of Thermopylae.

Spoofghoul25 votes

After all Riot's denial to release any official numbers on the active players says more than any released number could possibly do). This is a sign that Ghostcrawler has either no clue on what this game originally was, or he knows, yet tries to force his vision of game design on it

And this is a HUGE FUCKING PROBLEM

If i go to MC Donalds and order a burger and fries i expect to get a burger and fries Not a vegan salad

I keep ordering burgers and fries and i keep getting vegan salads guess what will happen

Ill just go to burger king instead since they actually give me the burger and fries i ordered

This is pretty much a capital sin in any business You don't sell the product you want to have, no you sell the product the customer wants or else they will find someone else who does.

It's a very simple concept yet somehow Riot seems to have their heads so deep up their arsehole all they are doing is wafting their farts and getting high on them

SaltyToplaneGoat7 votes

I think one of the main reasons the numbers are locked is because of Esports money. Esports money comes in with advertising, and companies sponsoring the teams (also for advertisment). However, the price for such advertisment is not determined by how many people actually watch, but how many people the companies THINK that are watching. That's the key difference. The moment they'd realize that this game is currently losing steam, they'd invest less or not at all.

In the worst case that can trigger a chain reaction, where one starts leaving, then the others think that "wow, when they leave they gotta be right about something", and then they leave too, and that just ends in a massive financial disaster for the whole of Riot's Esport section.

The problem is that keeping the numbers secret is only a very temporary fix, and the backlash will be even higher when some sponsors figure out that they have been paid for adds for a few millions, when only a few thousand were watching. In that case they'd just all pack their backs and Riot's reputation would be in shambles. With keeping the secret they have put themselves into a impossible situation - the only way to fix this now is to get the player count back up, and then release the numbers. But with the current design team this is not very likely to happen I guess...

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Riot's denial to what? Not release numbers of a playerbase just to prove wrong a handful of whiners on the board?

Z3Sleeper2 votes

It’s statistically gone down drastically. The decline hasn’t stopped since 2015. We’ll see how it performs this year. If it drops as hard as it did in the past 2 years, the game is definitely dying.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

"Statisically gone down drastically" and you know this how? Gut feeling?

Z3Sleeper2 votes

Nah google it fam. Several sources.

Hell, even google itself is a source with their graph thingy that shows general interest in a thing each year. Dunno what it’s called.

I’m not hating on Riot, i love league, but statistics don’t lie.

Ah here we go http://bfy.tw/IEE7

ChargeItDownMid18 votes

[deleted]

Hexs Fortune12 votes

{quoted}

The game favors the team with the best player far less now than it did in the past.

I feel team composition matters more now than it did in the past as well

SaltyToplaneGoat28 votes

Yes because the worst player on each team is what triggers the stomp, not the best.

Without feed and snowballing, most assassin champs would be pretty much harmless. But once they find the weak link in the enemy team and get rolling, then the stomp begins.

A singular player being at the forefront of every stomp and the worst playe rhaving more impact than the best player are not two concepts that exclude each other.

ChargeItDownMid12 votes

[deleted]

SaltyToplaneGoat7 votes

Tbh a Zed player spamming laugh and mastery is quite triggering...

LeaveNotThineBed2 votes

You're both right.

The game requires a lot more teamwork now than it used to, due to various things. Speedweeb is right in that the worst player will cause a stomp, but something that should be kept in mind is that comebacks are quite easy to do if the stronger team does not work together.

In the past, individual play could be rewarded. Outplaying 1v5 if you were fed enough was possible. Now, damage is so high, and previously with gold from a shut down going to the entire team, one CC effect or one slight misposition is instant death even if you are very fed, which results in the entire enemy team being stronger than your teammates, and you are the only one that is strong. Instead of being able to solo carry, you need to have your team play around you when you're fed. Likewise, you need to play around your team when you're fed. You can't just run in and try to do everything yourself.

While this may increase the necessity of teamwork, it's unhealthy from a "fun" perspective, as it means in most games your team relies on snowballing whomever gets fed. If your fed teammate isn't very good, and keeps dying silly deaths, suddenly you're worthless, and now you're going to lose. But if your team does play around the fed player, suddenly you win the game within the next fifteen minutes.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, if your fed player is very good, but you don't play around the fed player, you will probably lose the game because your fed player will have trouble snowballing his or her lead. ADC is currently very strong and is a great role to have an entire team play around, making bot lane the priority lane to snowball.

The recent gold changes will help somewhat, but the game has sped up so much in pace due to many things (Rift Herald, First Tower Gold, Items becoming stronger yet cheaper, empowered siege with Herald/Baron/Banner/Inhib, etc.), and the roles are so unbalanced (please fix items Riot) that the best solution will probably remain to be to play around your strongest player (ADC) for a long time.

So, uh, in summary, yes. A single outstanding player doesn't win the game, but a single fed player can take over the game if his team works around him. It's boring. It's also probably the reason why top laners like myself hate the game right now, seeing as it's the role with the least interaction in a time where snowballing the ADC is the best win condition because ADCs scale way too fast while also having the best scaling in the game.

Spacesuit Spiff13 votes

Very accurate. They need to find more power fantasies that dont revolve around killing everything, or stopping someone from killing anything. Massive damage used to be cool because of how rare it was, people would make videos of cheese builds oneshotting, but now that's just what the game is.

A neat solution i saw was the Vodyani in Endless Space 2. Warmonger faction in a 4x game, except they have the option to "take their enemies alive" by wiping out their military and then parking some UFOs on the population centers and slowly vacuuming up enemy civilians. That way the Vodyani get a consistent source of civilians to abduct as long as they keep the UFOs protected, but their opponent isn't just taken out of the game, and has an opportunity to play smart and make a comeback later.

League equivalent of this: you get ahead in lane and buy an item with a toggle effect "damage done to champions with current health less than half your current health is reduced by 80%, reduced damage is converted into some sort of scaling for the user".

Id explain the impact of this but my phones bugging out, ask and ill get back to it

Automated Riven12 votes

I disagree with most of your major points.

The game stopped being fun when riot changed from a fundamental approach of power fantasy in favor of the game having more counterplay for the other player.

Back when champions could actually achieve their power fantasy the game was a ton of fun, riot should have left all of the champions alone (I can see the argument for reworking poppy tho) and simply balanced around high elo. (I say this is a silver player btw) what was the fun part of the game which is missing now, most appearent in assassins, is that riot wants everything to be delayed and having counterplay. This makes the game IMHO less fun for everyone. In every class. Because nobody gets to have their power fantasy anymore. You only have a diluted sense of it.

I made a post here from the same perspective.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/9TibhXkE-guys-come-on-lay-off-ritos-ass-look-at-how-the-game-used-to-be-and-how-it-is-now?comment=00000000

SaltyToplaneGoat18 votes

Tbh the counterplay aspect has nothing to do with it. Being able to have interaction is kinda the basic requirement for any sort of competition to take place. It's not really a battle of skill when one player just blows up the other before he can react. Yes, old League was not the perfect game either, and it had it's flaws, but the direction it was going, the vision it was trying to achieve, was what captivated people.

The problem is, that we now have champions that can roflstomp their way through the enemy team DESPITE it all being delayed - because let's be real, a delay means nothing for the assassin player who is fed. If he deletes you in 1 second or in 3, that barely matters. THOSE people don't have dilluted power fantasy, they get to stomp everyone. Or take ADCs who deal more damage than ever. A ADC battle is pretty much boils down to "who one-shots the other first".

The problem is not a dilluted fantasy at all - the problem is now that people are used to thinking that going around and effectively one-shotting enemies is a display of "skill", and feel empowered from that. However, that is pretty much a hollow feeling, as it is not born from overcoming an even contest of strenght and wits, but rather because of "this is how the dice rolled, this game it is your turn to stomp".

Your entire post makes not much sense - unless you view the subject on the perspective of someone who actually prefers "being the stomper" over "being a skilful player". Oh yeah stomping is fun, don't get me wrong - but it fucks over the game as a whole if this is what the basic principle is.

Nyarlathοtep7 votes

Well the thing is that, without counterplay you feel cheated. Especially with the cases of literal one shots. There is nothing you could had done because that just how high his burst was. And if we are going to approach everything by power fantasy then the enemy would have to feel like playing a chore. And chores are not fun.

A good example of this is yasuo. His fantasy is one of the closest among champs in lol. Yet the experience for his enemy is pure nightmare (unless you counter him). Even first timers are going to make their enemy miserable. Thats not healthy not matter how much you try to justify it, its not oke.

Teridax689 votes

I disagree completely. In a PvP game where everyone gets to experience their power fantasy, without anything their opponent can really do to stop them, the end result is just a whole bunch of players walking all over each other, since each champion's power fantasy generally involves destroying everyone else. No matter how you approach it, any kind of PvP game will have some amount of interaction between players, so one might as well recognize that and work on it, rather than just award the win to whoever snowballs first or hard-counters the other.

I also feel it's a critical mistake to assume power fantasies should be automatically given to players without any obstacles. If you want a power fantasy without any kind of meaningful challenge, then any single-player or PvE game would be perfectly suited towards that. By contrast, power fantasies in PvP games have the unique advantage of having a player feel powerful precisely because they outplayed other human opponents, not in spite of doing so. The coolest highlights out of any gameplay videos for a game like League typically involve players outsmarting each other, and achieving phenomenal results because of it, and I think this can very clearly already be seen on many champions. Jhin's sniper power fantasy is made all the better due to the way his victims run for their lives every time he ults, and Bard's power fantasy as a magical traveler is only enhanced by his own fragility and lack of direct, immediate responses. When counterplay is done right, it only makes the champion's power fantasy better, because that power fantasy ends up with a direct, visible connection to skill and mastery. I agree that many champions have unfortunately had their power fantasy diluted over time, but I feel that's precisely because their counterplay has been done wrong, rather than because they were given counterplay at all.

Axxuka12 votes

Let me quote Ghostcrawler for you

''You don't need to play the game in order to design it''

That's his actual philosophy toward league... So yeah, have fun making him understand that when he thinks you don't need to play the game in order to understand it

Malak10 votes

Problem with Ghostcrawler is that he thinks he knows more than what he does.

"Oh yea I worked on this AAA game called WoW for years I'm an expert on the field." and Riot swallowed that crap and hired him.

These type of guys mess up games.

The people who work in game design for existing games should be game designers, but more importantly, veterans at the game they are being hired to design.

D4M2X06 votes

casuals enjoy any old shit cause they are casuals but they also get bored after an hour or 2 so why even bother design the game for them while making older players quit? the WORST thing a company can do is ignore its dedicated playerbase that actualy give a shit about the game.

look what runescape done in 2012, they gave us EoC and more then half the players quit overnight when EVERYONE was against it. 5 years later 07RS has more then double the playerbase the main RS has. OOPS! riot also done the same shit jagex done, they gave us dynamicQ and reverted it WHEN WE WERE HEAVILY AGAINST IT IN THE FIRST PLACE.

what if there were 2 servers for league, season 8 and maybe season 5? season 5 would be heavily favored..

SaltyToplaneGoat6 votes

Season 5 before juggernauts. Then rework Gragas and Seju so they are not perma pic/ban status, and suddenly I wouldn't even know what to ban lol (just kidding, always ban Trynd. Get this RNG bollocks out of my game!)

ToddnK4 votes

You're not allowed to blame dear leader for any of the multitude of bullshit he's done to this game.

SaltyToplaneGoat6 votes

Yeah, but this time I managed to wrap it up nicely so the fanboi hatetrain can't downvote me into oblivion like they did on previous occasions. And my points are all valid and right, and the area I am talking about is the complete responsibility of Lead Design. I wonder if I get a red response on this...

RiotGhostcrawler121 votes

I wonder if I get a red response on this...

Sure, I'll give you a red response on this. You guys still seem to make a lot of assumptions about how we work. The League org is really big. It is big partially because we are our own publisher and partially just because it's a big game with a lot of moving parts. Our organizational structure is to have a lot of smaller teams focused on specific problem spaces. For example the Live team makes the patch to patch balance changes, and overall focuses on problems like game health, fairness, and frustration. There is a different team that works to improve matchmaking and another that builds new game modes.

In that environment, it's not any one person's job to go around and say "Hey I have this personal value, so you need to start implementing the game in this particular way." If I left the team tomorrow and another designer took my place, it would be really hard to detect any difference from the viewpoint of a player. What you see are Riot values and League values, not my values.

I have also personally been focusing a lot lately on features like the new player overhaul and Clash (and some things we haven't talked about), so if anything I'm a little out of touch with recent gameplay changes. But that's fine, because I have very capable leads like Meddler who do keep in touch with that part of the game. Like I said, large org.

All of that said, I'm fine with you blaming me for anything in the game that you find annoying or just don't like. But that's not because I go down to the champion pit and tell them to design champions to fulfill a particular vision. Maybe I've been focused on the wrong things in the short term, or maybe our high-level philosophy isn't being acted upon, or maybe we just have the wrong designers working on the wrong problems in some places. All of those things are also my problems to solve.

To address some of the other points:

  • We've heard a lot of feedback from players that we've shifted the game too far from solo carry potential to team coordination mattering too much. It's something we are working to change.

  • The jungle changes were not made to shift power to a particular subset of junglers. They were overall made because we were concerned that junglers had too much effect on the outcome of the early game and we wanted to slow that first gank down just a little bit (that is oversimplifying a lot, but that's the basic idea). Systemic changes like this can definitely impact individual champions, and we shake those out over time. If the goal had been to just buff duelist-type junglers, we would have just said that and could have enacted it much more simply.

  • It is a constant struggle for us to decide what to change without changing too much. I am 100% certain that players would get bored and move away from the game if we just decided to stop trying to improve it over time, and we want to create a game that is around for years or decades. We know there is a cost to any change we make to League. There's a cost if you have to relearn something. There's a cost if you just don't like a change we made. We understand that and we try to only make changes that leave the game in a better state than it was before, but we definitely take steps backwards in order to take steps forward from time to time. All of our changes have goals though, and if the goals are unclear (and I think they were for the jungle changes mentioned above) then that's a communication failure on our part. At least then you can challenge whether you disagree with the goals, or whether you agree with the goals and just disagree that the specific implementation will deliver on them.

  • Overall, I am concerned that we put a lot of different things into new and updated champion kits these days. It is done with a noble purpose of making sure that you guys get excited about new champs, but it does mean a lot of our newer offerings are much more complicated than our older champions. We need to get better about being happier (and making sure you guys are happy) with some champions with relatively simple kits with maybe one or two complex abilities instead of all 4 (5 if you count the passive) requiring a lot of information to play around. (I often wonder how well a Lux or Jinx would do today if they were new champions.) On the other hand, I don't think the mobility arms race (or shield arms race or range arms race) is as bad as players sometimes like to argue. Very mobile champions can still have sharp weaknesses. It's harder for champs who can do everything really well to have sharp weaknesses, but usually this just manifests as their strengths not ending up all that sharp, because at the end of the day, even a wildly unbalanced champion tends to have a winrate in the 50%s. So I really think what players are talking about here is the frustration it can take to shut down an enemy champ, not that they can't win a game against that champ. This is why some of the strongest complaints still come in about champs with strong duel potential (the Rivens, Zeds and Yasuos). Their winrates may not be all that awesome, but it can be frustrating when they catch you alone one-on-one. But I don't think in that case the answer is just to make sure their winrates are low. It also gets into the whole conundrum of how to give players more individual agency when some of the champions designed with a lot of individual agency are some of the most frustrating and most complained about. :(

  • "I mean, when you look at Ghostcrawler's history before WoW, he has mostly worked on RTS titles (he started with Age of Empires after all). Back in the time, no one was playing these games for a competitive multiplayer - people played the campaign, and the multiplayer was for you and your friends to mess around with during LAN parties (man good old times, when was the last time I had a good old fashioned LAN-party?)." FWIW, we playtested Age of Empires almost exclusively in 4v4 multiplayer LAN games. The ridiculous thing about game development back then was that was pretty much all we had - we had no way to gather actual data from players so we had to balance the whole thing ourselves (with the kind of results you'd expect). Now days we can gather tons and tons of data about the actual player experience. I designed most of the campaigns for the AoE games, but they didn't get a ton of playtesting. Almost all of our playtesting was multiplayer. It's amazing the games ended up as good as they did.

  • ''You don't need to play the game in order to design it'' Look, the people who build airplanes rarely pilot them, but they still have a pretty good idea of how one flies a plane. That's all I was saying. That quote (taken out of context as these things sometimes are) was in response to the persistent yet somewhat tired theory that the best players should be the ones to design competitive games. There are some players who are excellent designers (and we hire some of them), and there are other players who would be dreadful at the job. If you don't play the game you design, it will definitely be much, much harder for you to be effective, but yes, in a theoretical sense, it is possible.

  • "Problem with Ghostcrawler is that he thinks he knows more than what he does." Nah. You always want to be in a situation where you're the dumbest person in the room, and fortunately that's pretty easy for me at Riot. The problem with Ghostcrawler is he has less time to talk to players than he used to, and struggles to find the right format these days. :(

Okay, that was a pretty long answer, but what did I miss that you were really hoping for an answer to?

Håppy5 votes

Thank you for actually posting in response to issues on the 8.10 patch cycle. I haven't read all the way through, but honestly, thank you.

La Bello2 votes

Look, the people who build airplanes rarely pilot them"

well duh cuz then you have to go to pilot school and literally risk your life and whatnot not to mention a pilot probably couldnt put together a plane either.

but video games are way different. Theres no real school that teaches you "fun" design or whats right and wrong. Everything here is subjective and what balance is right or wrong is merely a matter of debate.

It only takes like 8 minutes to download and 1 minute to get into a League of Legends match. you know...? That game you spend 8 hours a day working on? I dont think there is any excuse to not plop yourself down in front of the computer once a day and start up a LoL match or two so you can have a good idea of whats working and whats not working.

looking at nothing but data and graphs wont actually tell you why players HATE playing against Janna or Soraka with a passion or why the LeBlanc revert is a massive failure and exactly what OP mentioned about one-sided zerosum fun and putting counterplay on the backburner. If you actually played the game you might see why many players are practically watering at the mouth at the thought of Morello era balance returning(I know I am at least ).

Riot DID have a goal but halfway through they got lost and abandoned it. The pace at which these problems are getting resolved is far too slow and the wound needs to be staunched soon less you end up the next Heroes of Newerth. Release those play numbers Riot....

Banbutsu Sozo1 votes

Because people don't buy item 3123 and facecheck the Qs and try outtrade her early game?

(ref. Soraka)

La Bello2 votes

maybe because forcing players to choose sub-optimal items and sabotage their build paths just by matter of existing isn't fun?(yes it WORKS but its not FUN just like being forced to get a Zhonya's when the enemy has a fed Rengar)

maybe because having a champion that does nothing but nullify the laning phase with heals and kill player interaction isn't fun?

maybe because a champion who lives or dies by the opponents ability to purchase ONE item is not well designed?

maybe because her rework fixed some problems in her kit while accentuating other problems and the champion still makes everyone audibly groan when locked in?

maybe because being able to turn teamfights completely whilst never interacting with a enemy champion ONCE and instead playing exclusively from the backline should not be a thing?

Soraka is far overdue for another reworks. 4 Years of this crap is 4 years too long.

Banbutsu Sozo2 votes

Do you buy armour pen against a tank?

There are so many instances of having to itemise against your laner. Your point is moot.

My main issue was you putting Soraka and Janna into the same sentence.

Oh don't get me wrong I think grievous wounds is a disgusting design in its current state. Soraka is obnoxious without its purchase, and underpowered with its purchase. I just don't get people's problems when they can just invalidate her kit with 800g and just play better. Which is uncommon. (I've spent a lot of time on the Soraka mains subreddit and people not purchasing Execall is common even in Diamond.) Then the frustration is on the Soraka players' parts.

It was much healthier when there was othet conditions to it, e.g. Morellonomicon pre-rework only applied GW debuff below 25% health.

(And healing regardless always create game health issues.)

She doesn't play exclusively from the backline?

Last note, Grievous Wounds isn't a Soraka problem. She is just one of those affected the most by the problem of Grievous Wounds.

Cosnirak4 votes

Why isn't there a team at Riot that focuses on communicating with players? It seems like it's one of the most often lamented things by really great game developers that they don't have more time to communicate with the players and that doing so is so difficult to begin with. So get someone who is a pro at it to do it as their primary job.

There aren't a ton of people who specialize in communication, do it well, love and play League, and actually understand a fair bit about game development so that they can be a good go between for Riot and the community. But they do exist! And it seems like Riot (and most major game developers honestly) could really use one (or five) of them.

Theorex3 votes

There probably is a team like that. The issue is that they have to moderate and control how much information they give.

Imagine if a team were to be working on a new game mode that was to stay. Then someone asks then about new game modes and they told them something akin to "We are currently in the process of making a 7 v 7 map! The map will be more dynamic consisting of 4 lanes and 3 Epic Monsters; one giving towers damage reduction when an ally is near it + defensive stats, Baron, and the last one being an extra item slot for your team lasting for 6 minutes, 4 buffs; blue, red, AP amp/ HP amp, and movespeed amp + no unit collision. 9 normal camps. A spliting river at top and bot with 2 side entrances from river."

Now imagine the hype behind that idea.

Now imagine if the team then said that they had to scrap the idea because there were too many issues due to champions being balanced around summoners rift and certain champions would be too strong like kayn or teemo. While other champions would feel weak like trundle and skarner.

The comunity would have massive backlash. Because of a undelivered "promise".

People often time mistake "working on" as a sign of will be released. Often times its just ground work for something better.

That is why they dont share much information.

Breakstar8 votes

There is. You know those "Gameplay Thoughts" posts by Meddler? The Ask Riot posts on the main site? The videos of the devs describing upcoming changes to the game?

Those are the team that exists to communicate with players. Your next thought is probably "I don't mean that, I just mean a group of rioters that post on the boards, answer questions, and chat with us!"

But Riot isn't just thinking about us, here - there's the fact that the great majority of League's players are in China and Vietnam and Europe and so on. So Meddler's Gameplay Thoughts, and the Ask Riot posts are official responses that get translated to all the other regions' languages and shared with everyone, rather than the minority that speaks the same languages as Ghostcrawler.

DarkRitual1 votes

Because the communication between teams is likely only done as-needed. So the communications people would just spend 98% of their days running around distracting people from their other work asking what they're doing. You could embed a communication person into teams, but then you realize they aren't doing anything for 80% of the day now, so give them other work which will almost always take priority over browsing reddit/league boards.

Cosnirak2 votes

You don't have to know every little detail of everything going on at Riot to answer most player's questions and concerns. In the rare cases where they would need to know something like that they can just ask. Also Riot regularly has meetings that help get different groups aligned with each other and aware of what each other are doing, broadly at least, and it wouldn't be that much trouble to just listen in at most of those.

focuself4 votes

{quoted}

Sure, I'll give you a red response on this. You guys still seem to make a lot of assumptions about how we work. The League org is really big. It is big partially because we are our own publisher and partially just because it's a big game with a lot of moving parts. Our organizational structure is to have a lot of smaller teams focused on specific problem spaces. For example the Live team makes the patch to patch balance changes, and overall focuses on problems like game health, fairness, and frustration. There is a different team that works to improve matchmaking and another that builds new game modes.

In that environment, it's not any one person's job to go around and say "Hey I have this personal value, so you need to start implementing the game in this particular way." If I left the team tomorrow and another designer took my place, it would be really hard to detect any difference from the viewpoint of a player. What you see are Riot values and League values, not my values.

I have also personally been focusing a lot lately on features like the new player overhaul and Clash (and some things we haven't talked about), so if anything I'm a little out of touch with recent gameplay changes. But that's fine, because I have very capable leads like Meddler who do keep in touch with that part of the game. Like I said, large org.

All of that said, I'm fine with you blaming me for anything in the game that you find annoying or just don't like. But that's not because I go down to the champion pit and tell them to design champions to fulfill a particular vision. Maybe I've been focused on the wrong things in the short term, or maybe our high-level philosophy isn't being acted upon, or maybe we just have the wrong designers working on the wrong problems in some places. All of those things are also my problems to solve.

To address some of the other points:

  • We've heard a lot of feedback from players that we've shifted the game too far from solo carry potential to team coordination mattering too much. It's something we are working to change.

  • The jungle changes were not made to shift power to a particular subset of junglers. They were overall made because we were concerned that junglers had too much effect on the outcome of the early game and we wanted to slow that first gank down just a little bit (that is oversimplifying a lot, but that's the basic idea). Systemic changes like this can definitely impact individual champions, and we shake those out over time. If the goal had been to just buff duelist-type junglers, we would have just said that and could have enacted it much more simply.

  • It is a constant struggle for us to decide what to change without changing too much. I am 100% certain that players would get bored and move away from the game if we just decided to stop trying to improve it over time, and we want to create a game that is around for years or decades. We know there is a cost to any change we make to League. There's a cost if you have to relearn something. There's a cost if you just don't like a change we made. We understand that and we try to only make changes that leave the game in a better state than it was before, but we definitely take steps backwards in order to take steps forward from time to time. All of our changes have goals though, and if the goals are unclear (and I think they were for the jungle changes mentioned above) then that's a communication failure on our part. At least then you can challenge whether you disagree with the goals, or whether you agree with the goals and just disagree that the specific implementation will deliver on them.

  • Overall, I am concerned that we put a lot of different things into new and updated champion kits these days. It is done with a noble purpose of making sure that you guys get excited about new champs, but it does mean a lot of our newer offerings are much more complicated than our older champions. We need to get better about being happier (and making sure you guys are happy) with some champions with relatively simple kits with maybe one or two complex abilities instead of all 4 (5 if you count the passive) requiring a lot of information to play around. (I often wonder how well a Lux or Jinx would do today if they were new champions.) On the other hand, I don't think the mobility arms race (or shield arms race or range arms race) is as bad as players sometimes like to argue. Very mobile champions can still have sharp weaknesses. It's harder for champs who can do everything really well to have sharp weaknesses, but usually this just manifests as their strengths not ending up all that sharp, because at the end of the day, even a wildly unbalanced champion tends to have a winrate in the 50%s. So I really think what players are talking about here is the frustration it can take to shut down an enemy champ, not that they can't win a game against that champ. This is why some of the strongest complaints still come in about champs with strong duel potential (the Rivens, Zeds and Yasuos). Their winrates may not be all that awesome, but it can be frustrating when they catch you alone one-on-one. But I don't think in that case the answer is just to make sure their winrates are low. It also gets into the whole conundrum of how to give players more individual agency when some of the champions designed with a lot of individual agency are some of the most frustrating and most complained about. :(

  • "I mean, when you look at Ghostcrawler's history before WoW, he has mostly worked on RTS titles (he started with Age of Empires after all). Back in the time, no one was playing these games for a competitive multiplayer - people played the campaign, and the multiplayer was for you and your friends to mess around with during LAN parties (man good old times, when was the last time I had a good old fashioned LAN-party?)." FWIW, we playtested Age of Empires almost exclusively in 4v4 multiplayer LAN games. The ridiculous thing about game development back then was that was pretty much all we had - we had no way to gather actual data from players so we had to balance the whole thing ourselves (with the kind of results you'd expect). Now days we can gather tons and tons of data about the actual player experience. I designed most of the campaigns for the AoE games, but they didn't get a ton of playtesting. Almost all of our playtesting was multiplayer. It's amazing the games ended up as good as they did.

  • ''You don't need to play the game in order to design it'' Look, the people who build airplanes rarely pilot them, but they still have a pretty good idea of how one flies a plane. That's all I was saying. That quote (taken out of context as these things sometimes are) was in response to the persistent yet somewhat tired theory that the best players should be the ones to design competitive games. There are some players who are excellent designers (and we hire some of them), and there are other players who would be dreadful at the job. If you don't play the game you design, it will definitely be much, much harder for you to be effective, but yes, in a theoretical sense, it is possible.

  • "Problem with Ghostcrawler is that he thinks he knows more than what he does." Nah. You always want to be in a situation where you're the dumbest person in the room, and fortunately that's pretty easy for me at Riot. The problem with Ghostcrawler is he has less time to talk to players than he used to, and struggles to find the right format these days. :(

Okay, that was a pretty long answer, but what did I miss that you were really hoping for an answer to?

I see. Thank you for the response, so you are saying the direction of the game have been because of Meddler all along? GOD DAMN IT i knew he was incompetent when I heard him in Beyond the Rift. /s

Anyway, the dissatisfaction of everyone right now, boils down to the fact that everyone was used to the power dynamic in previous seasons. Every role besides support (who provide a different value) indulged in their power window. It's a window where they were theSTRONGEST. E.g basically Top: mid game, mid: mid-lateish game, jungle: early-mid game, AD: late game).

People like control, and they had a window to impact everyone else. If they fail to make said impact before another role comes online, it's secretly acknowledged across the board.

Right now, there is TOO MANY roles with overlapping power window, the weaknesses of champions from before is mitigated by new runes. So it feels like a coinflip because everyone is competing against the same resource early game, when early game should allow every role to do their own thing. For example, JG: early level spike, gank solo lane, Top: farming/winning trades -> slow snowball transitioning as the strongest role mid game and shut down AD b4 late game hits.

Let's talk about jungle. In theory, as designers, you seek healthy gameplay by allowing players to have counterplay, you don't want to design a role/champ so strong, that it kills the opponent's resolution to play the game.

In early game, you want to delay jungle ganks so top/mid lane don't feel helpless in a 2v1 situations, so lvl 1-2, they can make powerplays.

In practice, that will never work as long as junglers have red buff and hit lvl 2 before laners. The problem 8.10 tries to solve doesn't exist, because it's not solo lane's window to impact the game.

Junglers fall off mid-late game, if they do not have kills. So instead of nerfing jungle, what Riot needs to do, is BUFF laner's power spikes. Please... across the 6 seasons I've played this game, Riot's solution have been to keep nerfing roles/champ, take a look at patching history, and it's no surprise why everyone gets frustrated at their inability to solo the game.

Starry Skye Girl22 votes

Hey Ghostcrawler, first of all I want to thank you for opening up a bit of a discussion about the most recent patch cycle, particularly given the hostility of things. With that said, I do feel a couple of misunderstandings are happening in regards to the jungle changes in particular. I haven't really posted on the official boards before, so please bear with me if it's awkward at all, or formatting is subpar.

  • The stated goal was to limit how early junglers interact with lanes. By reducing experience and putting a delay on the scuttle crab spawning, there is a window of time where you can simply take your red buff, and go gank a lane level 2, then abandon the gank and take the crab as it spawns before returning to a more normal clear path. This also allows you to soak early lane minion xp, which makes up for the lost xp in the early clear to hit level 3 just as quickly as before, while impacting lanes sooner. This rise of a level 2 meta seems to directly contradict the stated goal of the crabs, and is causing even greater frustration than the 2:45 level 3 ganks. I myself have gotten first blood on the enemy midlaner at 1:55 on the game clock with a simple Rek'Sai flash+w. With all this in mind, I would ask how encouraging junglers to play up in to the river this early accomplishes the stated goal of limiting the jungle pressure exerted in the super early game, if anything, it increases it.

  • Even if the above is counterable through other means, the even bigger issue is how much lane priority matters super early game. For a time, we saw smite mids crop up as a response, that would simply wave clear up and smite one crab while their jungler took the other. While smite mid itself proved less than stellar, the concept still worked, and now we see a huge premium on lanes that can hard shove, as river control from the lanes provides your jungler with an easy advantage over the enemy. One of the previous goals was to de-emphasize hard shoving laners as a must, but the jungle changes completely revert this.

  • These things combine to mean that as a jungler, you need a hard level 2 power spike to either A) enter a lane and create pressure before 2 minutes, or B) survive any early pressure the enemy lanes might put on the river, and therefore your ability to grab the new contested objectives. This means picking anything but a level 2 duelist is knowingly putting yourself at a disadvantage and hoping your team can carry you through the early game. This vastly limits the jungler pool to a select few bruisers and pseudo-tanks, going against the vision of diversifying the role that you guys were attempting in the exact same patch with the ruinic echoes changes (those changes were failed, but as everyone acknowledges that and the reasons why, and seems to be on the same page about it, it's not a point that really deserves discussion).

  • While all the above points are centered specifically on the changes made in 8.10, it begs a certain larger question. What do you guys at Riot want the jungle to be? If not the role that influences the game early, and if not the role that influences the game late, and if not a supporting, vision control role (see: the removal of Tracker's Knife), then what is jungler as a role ideally meant to do in your game? Right now, it's hard to see an actual vision about what you want junglers to do, which makes constructive feedback on how to "fix" the role difficult. I would say this is the biggest question I have for the Riot design team after 8.10 even. What do you want me, as a jungler, to be doing, and when do you want me to have my power to effect the game?

I hope this post didn't come off as too harsh, I tried to be as constructive as possible. I would say the tl;dr of this post comes in the last point however. Until Riot can sum up what they want junglers to do as a self contained role, I don't know that many people will be able to provide more constructive feedback on how to attain those goals and make the role feel good.

Selaine Ash5 votes

I may not like everything that happens in league, but I just wanna say as someone whose first games I can remember being a toddler were Age of Empires/Starcraft/Diablo that I didn't know you worked on Age of Empires campaigns, and I wanna thank you for that. I replayed the campaigns of those games dozens of times over the years, and it always made me smile.

AirKingNeo3 votes

We've heard a lot of feedback from players that we've shifted the game too far from solo carry potential to team coordination mattering too much. It's something we are working to change.

And you did well with the bounty revert. Seriously, thank you from the bottom of my heart.

I have also personally been focusing a lot lately on features like the new player overhaul and Clash (and some things we haven't talked about), so if anything I'm a little out of touch with recent gameplay changes. But that's fine, because I have very capable leads like Meddler who do keep in touch with that part of the game. Like I said, large org.

Moving up a bit actually, this means you're working at design and not game balance. Things I hate design wise? Zoe's W, blast cones in combat, whatever changes to Runic Echoes (if design working on this, bring back MS), the bruiser nerfs on the PBE (just noting that they are nerfs), and the very blatant imbalances with the marksmen item changes (Crit is over nerfed as fuck, LW is broken on assassins, and more) that I really, really, really would like to talk about in an actual conversation.

I'd mention that I'm not of these circlejerks here, but you probably wouldn't understand because you don't use the forum enough. To put it simply, people unironically upvote posts that attack players of either ADC as a role, Yasuo as a champ, Zed as champ, etc. using stereotypes and somehow moderation doesn't auto-remove these posts... I seriously do not know why.

The jungle changes were not made to shift power to a particular subset of junglers.

Then here's what I don't get. Xin Zhao is being nerfed because of this powershift rather than powershift being fixed. I don't think many people object to 4 camps to get lv3 (though I would prefer tankier, less damaging jungle and 3 camp lv3), but I know a lot of people object to RNG Scuttles which is the issue.

''You don't need to play the game in order to design it''

In my opinion, I think is issue is that when coupled with not look at statistics. I do seriously find it very hard to believe Kha'zix could be at above a 50% banrate since the start of the season in Diamond+ Elo Globally (Source, League of Graphs), and, if people looked at stats, noticed at all. Other examples exist, this is the just best one.

Okay, that was a pretty long answer, but what did I miss that you were really hoping for an answer to?

I don't know. I'm a brilliant person full of logic and a certain curiosity to see a better tomorrow even with a cynical view of people. You? Not sure, I don't know you personally. Despite our differences, we both want the same end result (or at least I hope). I'm probably some random person to you, but you and I could work together to bring about an even better tomorrow.

Seto Ka1ba4 votes

I just appreciate that you responded to this in a civil manner. The player base is way to harsh on you guys honestly.

Banuvan3 votes

Maybe ghostcrawler should have stuck to marine biology instead of ruining games. Go save the whales or something.

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