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Essence Reaver Suggestion (Poll)

LilxPaprika··2 votes·1,634 views

item 3508 Stats +80 attack damage +10% life steal **+5% **cooldown reduction Passive UNIQUE PASSIVE: Your basic attacks restore mana equal to between 2% and 8% of the physical damage dealt, based on your missing mana. Unique: Your basic attacks grant +1% life steal for 8 seconds (maximum 5 stacks). Item cost 3500g

How about giving essence reaver 5% CDR instead of 10%. Change its build path too, to give ADCs a way to get the mana sustain earlier (when you need it most) Like how it used to be built from pick axe. (This wouldnt be very cost effective however since it does give mana after all which you cant really put a price on) And the mana you get won't really be thaaat significant early since it scales off DMG. Then give it a lifesteal stacking system that burrows from sanguine blade in aram. For up to 15% lifesteal. Unique: Your basic attacks grant +1% life steal for 8 seconds (maximum 5 stacks).

This would make it a more attractive alternative to bloodthirster. Which gives a shield and more lifesteal but requires that you have better mana management. It would also have the same price point as bloodthirster.

The way I see it essence reaver should be the goto mana item for ADCs that do not opt for trinity force and need mana source. It can of course still pair well with manamune as it currently does on blue ezreal. But would also work fine as a stand alone mana item.

Build path could be lifesteal pick axe into one item that has the mana refund passive. And then add another pickaxe to complete essence reaver. Adding the sanguine bonus lifesteal and the extra 5% CDR.

The 5% CDR is sort of arbitrary. Since I'm increasing the price you could still keep the 10% CDR. Or even instead give more lifesteal from 12% to 17% at max stacks.

19 Comments

the Anarchit3cht3 votes

I mainly think they need to give it an intermediate option that gives a little bit of mana sustain before you actually finish building it. It's never worth building before any of the core ADC items and by the time you could finish it off you generally wont have mana problems except in very extended fights.

LilxPaprika1 votes

Alright I think my 5% CDR is not sitting well with you guys. I see why, seeing as how that this item set out to fill that niche (that of offering ADCs who rely on spells to have more ways of incorporating CDR into their builds.

Anyways hear me out:

The challenge i wish to solve is to find a way to make reaver a direct alternative to BloodThirster... So essentially raising its price cap to that of BT's. To do this one has to create a build path that is** no **more convenient.

Solution is quite simple. Create a single purchasable item that cost 1550 gold. in the case of BF sword you need to hit a certain large amount of gold in inventory to get a cost effective DMG spike. Or in the the case of reaver; mana spike.

200 mana is 400 gold. so lets say reaver gives about 500 mana worth. let's call it 800 golds worth (with bonus efficiency) So the remaining 750 would be the amount of physical damage it would receive. So about the combined cost of two long swords or around 20-25 dmg

It could even be a price point of 1600 (like needlessly large rod). But offer the unique mana passive, 20 ad and 5% CDR. (later getting the other 5% to make for 10% total) Or just stick to 1550g but offer the passive and 25 ad instead.

Sure you get less ad but you also get a lot of spell spamming. In shorter trades you might lose out, however if you can wear the enemy down perhaps wait until his their mana pool gets low... Your wave clear will be up to speed if they are pushing too fast.

In either case both ADCs are a threat to each other. Those with with long range might prefer BT since they can harass the enemy from a safe distance. While shorter range champions like Lucian would prefer to reach the enemy with spells and apply pressure with faster wave clear.

it would bring more strategy as well. By not having to back for a long time and constantly farming applying pressure prevent enemy adc from backing without risking to lose their turret.

while someone with BT could also try and take advantage of their early DMG spike. And be a bigger threat during dragon fights. champions like Tristana, kalista with runnan's or even a sivir with good use of spell shield could keep up with clear.

Sirsir1 votes

I don't think of it as an ADC item really, so much as an AD caster item, like Jayce and Urgot. Someone who benefits more from the CDR than the mana-on-hit effect that most ADCs prefer.

Its issue is that its a mana item that doesn't actually help your mana issues until you complete the item. That leaves you with the vast majority of your lane phase with your mana issues a problem.

Plus Riot doesn't really seem to like tons of options for the same niche. Making two lifesteal and BF sword based items with the same cost isn't something they are likely to do. And they would NEVER make a 5% CDR item... Plus its really more of a Manamune competitor anyway.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

I don't think of it as an ADC item really, so much as an AD caster item, like Jayce and Urgot. Someone who benefits more from the CDR than the mana-on-hit effect that most ADCs prefer. .....

manamune is already there for AD casters. I think reaver suits champions who don't quite spam spells but use them enough to warrant a second mana item aside from the base mana you get from trinity force. Champions like skarner, irelia, or even pantheon or shaco. sure these champions may choose to get righteous glory or frozenheart but these aren't always called for depending on matchup.

Also reaver is comparatively as dissimilar to Bloodthirster as botrk is. both fulfill equally distinct roles. Botrk provides active slow movspeed attackspeed. whereas this reaver would offer sanguine blade's passive with cdr.

Aside from the 80 ad these items have no overlap. Thats like saying zhonia and archangel staff are too much alike since they both have 120 ap. both of these items have a form of defense one has a shield active the other has statis active. bt has a shield from engorge while reaver has lifesteal stacks.

and as for the 5%cdr i don't think riot is deadset against it. I'm sure they might come across an item idea that suits it.

Come to think of it I actually feel like reaver could be a closer match to ravenous hydra. At the 75 ad mark. Since asking for the sanguine passive along with mana returns and cdr might make it stronger than bt. I think we'd have to tone it down to 75 ad. I really want to emphasize the need more sanguine passive or just more than 10% lifesteal. mainly because of the need for item slots. and the fact that one all too often can only get 1 lifesteal item to be able to rival the meta picks/builds.

interestingly enough if we look at tiamat's build path:

1900 gold --- item 3077 : item 1006 item 1006 item 1036 item 1037

This reaver item could be built similarly like so: 1900 gold --- item 3508 : item 1004 item 1004 item 1036 item 1037

then tack on: item 1053 and presto http://imgur.com/AcL4VEd

One thing is for sure for a resource like mana that is most needed early game a 1900 gold price point is a lot more appealing than 3200g

Ale non è male1 votes

The fact is that ER shouldn't be alternative to Bloodthirster but complementary to it and to another main damage item - main AD damage item tha probably lakcs at the moment as alternative to IE -

LilxPaprika1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ale non è male,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iamkTAtR,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2015-02-19T18:03:20.033+0000)

The fact is that ER shouldn't be alternative to Bloodthirster but complementary to it...

Unless you go with 6 offensive items you're sacrificing too much elsewhere.

You have to look at in term of competitive play since thats the arena in which balancing ought to take place. This is why katarina isn't nerfed because at high elo people know how to handle her. Same goes with your suggestion people will see how you've itemized and punish you for it. going bt reaver is not a build centered around competitive play.

Its as if this was football and you created an item that was super risky like for an onside kick. Except it would involve the quarterback (akin to adc) as well. The onside kick analogy however does exist in league except its in the form of assassins and glass cannon ap mids. who can drop their payloads and die like say karthus, ziggs, leblanc etc. but still come out on top from having done so much damage. ADC's will always rely to some extend (certainly moreso than mages) on auto attacks which require some survivability. going with 6 offensive items is too risk on such champions. You need to be able to survive the initial burst as you're the primary target. The one exception in going 6 items would be getting mercurial scimitar (1 cleanse + mr > 10% lifesteal/cdr). Remember i'm talking about competitive. Sure in solo queue anything goes and you'll often see full ad builds.

Ale non è male1 votes

6 offensive items? It depends if your main damage item has AS or not, or if you can't consider at all a sustain item as "defensive"

A build like TF-ER-BT-Yomuu(LW)- boots- defensive item, which isn't unrealistic for an ADC caster, isn't exactly a 6 offensive item build. ER main problem is the price tag, imho, it should not have a so high price tag because it ends up losing vs all the major damage item. It could be a nice early game item as first rush if the cost was lower, but actually the price is just too high and become complementary/situational to the rest of your build and game situation. ER/BT should be able to live together and not one against the other, since the 30% LS and tons of AD is something AD caster should like to have (and other LS item for ADCs grants too little Ad for these guys)

LilxPaprika1 votes

ER/BT should be able to live together and not one against the other

I never said they couldn't In fact i don't see anything wrong with you choosing to get both. When I say rival I don't mean make them mutually exclusive or anything. I just think that in most situations (esp. on adcs) 1 sustain item is preferable and should be the basis for how lifesteal items work. (Unless your name is riven talon)..

If combined this will give them 35% lifesteal instead of say the current 30% with botrk (except botrk % health damage and active can makeup for that missing 5% lifesteal).

It used to be someone like talon could stack the old bloodthirsters. giving them upwards of 40% lifesteal. this would still be a fair bit shorter. Come to think of it this revised reaver would work nicely on talon and help him farm in mid lane.

Ale non è male1 votes

ER shouldn't be aimed to work well on Talon. It should be aimed to work on AD casters, taking in high consideration AD casters marksmen marksmen since ER was meant to become an alternative solution for them when there were the Bt changes back in 4.10 patch

That's why subtracting CDR which only other option is on Yomuu for AD casters marksmen and put power on basic attacks make little sense. AD casters should want it, NOT assassins/fighters

A mistake people do when they think about when they propose the rework of an item is to estabilish as example to balance out items (when they do it, of course), champs which were not meant to be the target of that item at first glance. When you want to rework ER you got to keep in mind that should be attractive for AD casters first, everyone else second

BastionKross1 votes

The whole reason to buy it is for that sweet, sweet mana return. However, it's kneecapped since it actually has no way to help your mana issues until it's finished. item 3042 is the other option of course, but not all champions that could use the Reaver can stack a item 3070 quickly enough.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

This makes it too similar to item 3181, which sucks. I honestly like the way reaver is now. It's build path keeps anyone from having too much oppressive mana regen too early, but it gives you the stats to become a spell-slinging fury once you get it. I rush it on Varus every game, and never regret it. So much poke, and I very rarely run out of mana once I have it.

It fits perfectly for a champ like that. Not sure who would pick it with your suggested changes.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

This makes it too similar to item 3181, which sucks.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I just hate that passive. I think it's bad. I don't want it on any items, ever.

LilxPaprika1 votes

{quoted}

I just hate that passive. I think it's bad. I don't want it on any items, ever.

Your right in fact riot should drop everything and hang on your every word / whims just because you "think its bad" and "hate such and such".

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

I don't expect anyone to hang on my every word. I'm sharing my opinion, just like you. Two points:

  1. Hate dat passive

  2. Even if I didn't, I like the current essence reaver.

No need to be salty, bro. Instead, you could answer my quasi-question. Who are you thinking of building this on? It might help explain why we disagree.

LilxPaprika1 votes

I was exagerating... see that's what i mean. just saying those things aren't very constructive.

essence reaver could work on not just adcs who don't wish to manage their mana so much and would benefit from applying pressure by being able to use their spells more to clear waves. (hell even vayne could benefit from it. I find one of her drawbacks is a weak wave clear). But also as mentioned earlier on bruisers like poppy for instance, or even talon, khazix & nocturne so they can stay longer (especially useful when sieging and during drawn out/extended fights) instead of having to back so often.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

But that's where the issue lies. Other items are better on those people. Vayne has no abilities that help her wave clear. This item wouldn't change that.

Talon... maybe. But again, he doesn't auto attack that much. It isn't safe in lane for him to do so. Same for Kha and noct. During sieges, these aren't champs that can regen mana from this item. That's why I am saying it's mainly for adc's with good abilities. It isn't designed for melee champs. That's why you almost never see them build it.

You say it isn't constructive, but that's the heart of the issue. The item you're talking about could be good, but it isn't essence reaver. Essence reaver is a bad item for the goals you want to achieve. That's my opinion.

Melee mana regen is in a bad spot. They need something else, because autos won't work for them to do that. It's fine for you to disagree peacefully, but to be salty and say those arguments aren't valid? Well, that's why, as I check the post, you're sitting at a -3 downvote. Those arguments are real.

Hikkupz1 votes

I think the stats for this is fine. It needs different build path. Riot should make a new item "A" that's built from item 1036 +item 1036 +item 3114 and then + item 1038

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