What if... when you hit Rengar with non-displacement-hard-CC during his passive/Ult leap...

Z3Sleeper·Mar 26, 2019·51 votes·14,737 views

With something such as a Lux snare, he didn't proceed to oneshot your ADC and instead got snared in place.

Sound good? Sounds good.

Look people, we're obviously not just gonna slap this massive nerf on there and call it day. He should get compensation buffs for this change. The goal is to make the champ healthier, not gut him.

Now that there's more counterplay to his shenanigans, the shenanigans itself has room to be stronger since it's counterplayable.

Make sense? Makes sense.

94 Comments

Frosted TipsMar 26, 201922 votes

He would definitely need a buff to compensate for that drastic change. I'm not saying it should not happen, but it would hurt Rengar drastically. I would imagine atleast a 5% drop in win rate.

Rathar DashingMar 26, 20196 votes

Would only hurt him in high ELO where people can react to his dash in time to hit him with a hard CC, let alone land the skillshot on a moving target.

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 201911 votes

It's not a nerf if you give compensation, now is it?

EedatMar 26, 201917 votes

He doesnt need a nerf

Frosted TipsMar 26, 201915 votes

Exactly this. So if you find it unhealthy as it currently is then if they did this change to increase his overall health he would need a buff to compensate for this change.

Z3SleeperMar 26, 20195 votes

Agreed. As long as it's not in the way of "hurr durr increase damage".

LuaDotExeMar 26, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Agreed. As long as it's not in the way of "hurr durr increase damage".

That's probably the optimal change, though-- either that or a buff to his survivability. When you make something less reliable, the two ways to go are to increase the effectivity of when you DO land it, or to decrease the impact of failing (the former of which commonly feels way better, since the latter includes a safety net that basically says "AHAH YOU FUCKED UP except it doesn't actually mean anything.")

Z3SleeperMar 26, 20192 votes

I think the better way of going about it is buffing him in some way to where he isn't as feast or famine as he currently is. I personally think way too much power is loaded into his passive. Trimming that down a bit and shifting that power into his ability scalings or AD per level would help reduce this to increase reliability (with more power gained than lost, given compensation for the OP change is still needed).

Tarquin96Mar 26, 20192 votes

But if you buff his dmg,in games where no such cc is present he will be too strong

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 20196 votes

Not saying he does, i'm saying it isn't a nerf if the other parts of his kit get buffed, now is it?

EedatMar 26, 20198 votes

But if he doesnt need a nerf and you nerf him, you should add something back elsewhere

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 20197 votes

Then I say again

Is it really a nerf?

EedatMar 26, 20198 votes

No, the goal isnt to nerf him lol

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 20194 votes

So stubborn. say if you wanted to nerf a champion, say from a max rank of

Q: 300 damage W: 100 damage E: 450 healing R: increases all damage by 33.3% for 3 seconds, reapplying the majority of the damage type dealt.

and you change it to:

Q: 300 --> 275 damage W: 75 damage E: 425 damage R: unchanged

but then you make the ultimate do 45% damage increased, reapplying damage types dealt,

is that really a nerf, or a sacrifice for a better ultimate?

EedatMar 26, 20199 votes

wtf are you going on about? The original comment says a power neutral change needs to take place then you respond with 'but then it's not a nerf'. Thats the entire point. It's not supposed to be a nerf. It's supposed to be a pwer neutral change.

And to answer your example, its a huge nerf. I'm assuming E is supposed to be a heal on both sine you didnt note the change

Meep ManMar 26, 20195 votes

Anyone else honestly think this is the most meaningless conversation you've ever seen as both of these people say the exact same thing over and over back at each other, constantly essentially agreeing on what they want?

Z3SleeperMar 26, 20194 votes

Nah Eedat is trying to keep this a power neutral change while EthreainAmbusher just wants it to be a straight nerf.

EthreainAmbusher then proceeded to swing the argument into a silly strawman where he says "all I'm saying is it isn't a nerf if there's compensation."

Essentially, EthreainAmbusher is contributing absolutely nothing to this discussion since he changed the initial subject where he literally responded to the first post saying "it's not a nerf if you give compensation.

I really don't know what his goal here is or why he commented in the first place.

However, if I'm misunderstanding his intentions and he actually literally just came here to say "nerfs aren't nerfs if there's compensation" then he's equally as silly as in the aforementioned situation, as that does absolutely nothing for this discussion.

Anyway, I'm agreeing with Frosted Tips and Eedat on this one. Rengar doesn't need nerfs, I just want this 0 counterplay situation fixed.

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 20193 votes

I was responding to this:

[{quoted}](name=Frosted Tips,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYK7VjEh,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-03-26T01:16:27.294+0000)

He would definitely need a buff to compensate for that drastic change. I'm not saying it should not happen, but it would hurt Rengar drastically. I would imagine atleast a 5% drop in win rate.

In which he says he would need a compensation buff for his ult dash to be stopped by a snare

Then I say, it's not a nerf if you get compensation. Then you say, He doesn't need a nerf.

I'm not saying he needs a nerf, i'm saying if you give someone extra power to 'balance' a champion because their ultimate gives the added bonus of "Unstoppable btw" when that power wasn't intended, is it really a nerf? Wouldn't it be more on the level of a soft buff? or even just a fix to remove the Unstoppable bonus?

TL;DR: If you give a champion a buff because they have power that wasn't supposed to be there, then buff them because you removed a power they weren't supposed to have, wouldn't it still be a bonus because you have more power overall?

EedatMar 26, 20194 votes

Yes, if they changed it so Rengar could get snared mid leap, it would be a huge nerf by itself. Regardless of whether it was supposed to be there or not, it is in fact there and consumes part of his power budget period. Now if they made the leap changes then compensated by buffing something else in his kit, then its not a nerf but a power neutral change.

The way you worded your first response makes it sound like you wanted a nerf and no compensation.

EthreainAmbusherMar 26, 20193 votes

Then it's my bad. I'm just trying to be the Devil's Advocate, so I can say:

If you nerf a champion and buff them accordingly, is it truly a nerf?

Edit: I also agree with what you've said thus far.

Hide Your LolisMar 26, 20193 votes

Changes aren’t really a black and white situation. If you nerf one aspect of a champion and buff another, it’ll end up being either a net buff or net nerf depending on how the champion’s winrate changes.

ﬂooMar 26, 20197 votes

Make it flashable and it's fine. No I won't accept being 5m away from your melee 1k auto as a "hit".

SalronMar 26, 20192 votes

That's not exclusive to rengar ult You can't flash away from any auto attack or AA enhancer in the game

ﬂooMar 26, 20191 votes

You can flash melee autos mid animation. You can't because for some reason his jump animation isn't dodgable and a 100% hit on anything but Jax E.

PB4UAMEMar 26, 20191 votes

As a Garen, Yorick, and tank player. No. You're wrong. If the wind up STARTS, not finishes, just STARTS, the melee auto will hit regardless of distance to target when the wind up ends. This is especially noticeable on Garen's Q, as ever since his rework in S5, they vastly increased the animation time on the Q, to the point where you can Q->flash on to a target, and they will have time to see this, react, dash/flash/blink away (taking over a third of a second) and then will still be hit by the Q and silenced afterwards, even though Garen seemingly is flipping and slashing at empty air.

Meep ManMar 26, 20196 votes

Its because its a basic attack. Its impossible to dodge or negate basic attacks unless through a Blind or Block/Dodge.

Rıots Bad ClientMar 26, 20194 votes

With the exception of displacements(only affects melee) and or Stasis (Such as bard ult, or item 3157

Z3SleeperMar 26, 20195 votes

Thanks leagueoflegendswiki. Now that we're all familiar with why it works, let's talk about if it should work.

WimbledofyMar 26, 20191 votes

No, it's not because it's a basic attack. It's because roots/stuns don't stop dashes. If it was a knockup, or other displacement ability like janna ult then the damage wouldn't go through. Rengar's attack doesn't count as a basic attack until he reaches his target anyways. And we aren't talking about dodging it, we are talking about stopping rengar.

SalronMar 26, 20191 votes

Snares and such don't stop AAs nor do they stop dashes either Making this exception for Rengar would be an inconsistency

WimbledofyMar 28, 20191 votes

I didn't say to make it like that, i was pointing out that he was incorrect for why it isn't interrupted.

TK576Mar 26, 20195 votes

Honestly his scaling every time in a match I see is completely broken. I don't understand why his W counters CC, he practically is an S-tier champion at this point. There are no nerfs to his passive scaling or his ferocity. I ban Rengar 100% if I am jungling because even if another BS jungler such as Shaco can't handle how powerful his bursting is.

MonlythMar 26, 20193 votes

I mean, when I look at the latest tier lists, they list Rengar as B-tier, a far cry from god-tier. Sure, he can snowball, but he has to dive your team to score a kill (meaning he's always susceptible to counterattacks), he's not as great when he can't snowball, and his teamfighting ability leaves something to be desired.

PæanMar 26, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Honestly his scaling every time in a match I see is completely broken. I don't understand why his W counters CC, he practically is an S-tier champion at this point. There are no nerfs to his passive scaling or his ferocity. I ban Rengar 100% if I am jungling because even if another BS jungler such as Shaco can't handle how powerful his bursting is.

Only his empowered W is a cleanse. His normal w only heals based on recent damage. If he uses his empower on W, then he loses a large chunk of his burst and dps. He may get away, but less likely to insta someone.

SęraphMar 26, 20194 votes

He doesn't need a buff to compensate for the change. That isn't even a nerf. It is fixing something that should already be in place.

Rıots Bad ClientMar 26, 20193 votes

I think instead of just negating damage from a Root just because they picked a melee and used thier only engage you picked a far range Lux and shoot it directly at them going in a straight line. this would nerf XinZhao , MonkeyKing , Hecarim , Camille , LeeSin ect.

However if you only want this a special case for ONLY Rengar , then it just seems Very biased against him. Thats like saying. HE gets Bonus 300Dmg To any champion that has a CC that could have stopped him.

(if you say, well they should just read my abilities. You can spam every projectile, auto at them until use their only engage for you only to just spit it out. as thier only engage is a straight dash(some faster then others)... it just seems rather unfair.

We can do something along the lines the effect of the root, snare stun ect. ONLY STARTS after their dash has finished. because sometimes, its pretty unfair they get melee range, but I get a max range snare for them to go the mages face and only get snared for a fraction of a second giving them no time to escape.

Tldr, Have it so that CC only starts after the dash finishes.

If that happens( I think think CC Stacking should be looked at as a whole)

Z3SleeperMar 26, 20193 votes

Nahnah this has nothing to do with all dashes, just Rengar (as specified in le title). And CC would only stop him if he isn't already basically on the target.

It's to counterplay his ult since you don't exactly know which direction he will come from but if you react right then you're rewarded by not getting oneshot.

Rıots Bad ClientMar 26, 20191 votes

And If Rengar (a Jungle assassin) is a huge threat to your adc while your support. Why not pick a support whos job it is to peel like crazy, like Janna and Alistar ect(just a few Whom can interrupt Rengar engage very reliably and easy.

(well how can you have the foresight when you're first picking as a support) If you first pick Lux as a support, then you're sort of asking for the assassins to come in your game.

Weiss GuertenaMar 26, 20192 votes

"Counterpick or lose" isn't counterplay. And even if you pick one of those and hug your ADC 24/7 to prevent them from being instantly evaporated Rengar can simply opt into deleting your midlaner instead. OP or not, a champion whose entire job is "prevent someone on the opposing team from playing the game" should be looked at.

LuaDotExeMar 26, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Weiss Guertena,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iYK7VjEh,comment-id=000300010000,timestamp=2019-03-26T13:21:36.030+0000)

"Counterpick or lose" isn't counterplay. And even if you pick one of those and hug your ADC 24/7 to prevent them from being instantly evaporated Rengar can simply opt into deleting your midlaner instead. OP or not, a champion whose entire job is "prevent someone on the opposing team from playing the game" should be looked at.

That's not really fair, though, since it's a PvP game; part of the point of the game is to kill the enemy, so by extension, any Champion that's meant to specialize in killing another is, inherently, according to the statement above, unhealthy.

Weiss GuertenaMar 26, 20193 votes

Another important part of a PvP game is that when a clash between two sides occurs, both sides have a degree of agency on how it resolves. However, that agency mostly disappears from the opposing side when you have a champion who's able to literally out of nowhere kill someone in less than 0.2 seconds. That kind of "perfect assassination" has no place in a PvP game. There is no outplaying Rengar or Rengar outplaying you; he clicks on you and you either drop dead if his stats are high enough or you don't.

And yes, champions who only offer raw killing power and nothing else have rarely been in a balanced state due to how polarizing they are (see: Lucian) and Rengar is by far the worst offender. A game including Rengar is a 4v5 game; either he is able to delete someone without them having a chance to retaliate making a game 4v5 in his team's favor, or he isn't and makes the game 4v5 in opposing team's favor because he offers almost nothing else of value to his team.

Rıots Bad ClientMar 27, 20192 votes

Nah, its just Adapt or lose.

But if you're quick, this also shuts down his burst summoner 3

But there is Builds you can take that helps against him item 3026 , item 2419 are common ones adc use. There just isnt really an Item that does "Stop any burst from happening to anyone"

There are tools, there are Items, there are counterpicks, there are strategies, and there are ways to shut down a Rengar and you want more.... for supports who are mages(whom are supposed to be offensive and Not defensive) ways to shut down a rengar ULT+Burst... I mean, technially speaking. Nocturne has rengar like play style, and has a spell shield, and you cant interrupt his R movements, and shuts down any vision you did have.

you saying there is no Counter play to rengar is ludicrous. And there is just complete biased against the champion. If an assassin gets fed, of course its going to be frustrating. Its why they're pretty much hated all around. Slippery one shotters.

I Personally dont think the champion is all that bad, and he just synergies very well with item 3147 ... and that item is pretty broken. Free damage from stealth, has a slow for him.

Mokuto BunshiMar 26, 20193 votes

I never understood how ROOTING something to the ground allows it to complete a mid air momentum sustained movement, but STUNNING something, akin to knocking it unconscious temporarily stops all momentum in its tracks. Not that i'm complaining mind you, works out well with my champ pool but, it honestly makes little sense...

Romans VI XXIIIMar 26, 20192 votes

actually stunning does not stop champions mid dash either. only displacements LeeSin R and knock-ups Malphite R stop champions mid dash.

Mokuto BunshiMar 26, 20191 votes

hmm ok

GodlyBaneMar 26, 20191 votes

just give him his aoe Q back with its low cd (and etc) when he had more counterplay because he couldnt just have on click Q's all the time. I used to play rengar often until the revert to his Q and i want it back bro

Z3SleeperMar 27, 20192 votes

Every Rengar main from before and after the revert will heavily disagree with this. But I agree, his new Q was way healthier. Idk why it got reverted other than they had enough Rengar players that complained that their burst window and overall counterplay was higher.

I doubt this is ever coming back for that same reason.