Riot, you should focus a few patches on making 'late game' a realistic scenario again.

WoonStruck·Feb 18, 2017·131 votes·4,420 views

You fix a good portion of the game's current issues by doing that.

The other option is reworking all of the 'late game' champions, which includes a good portion of ADCs, to fit reasonably into the new game-deciding timeframes.

Idk about you, but I think a line of 20+ reworks sounds like a lot more work than a few pacing adjustments.

That, and I don't know many people that enjoy the majority of games being decided in the first 10 minutes, then having to play for another 10-20 minutes to move to the next one. Being held hostage by the game is not fun.

Addressing the game's pacing to allow late game champions to actually be options without them being more reliant on snowballing than snowball champions is probably a great start for the direction of the upcoming patches.

98 Comments

PennsFeb 18, 201716 votes

Me: "Should we open?" Someone on my team: "Yeah probably im so behind" Someone else on my team: "no its only 14 minutes in" Me: "its season 7, 14 min is late game" so.. yeah xd

hopeful4Feb 18, 20173 votes

So you and one of your team in low elo being clueless proves what exactly?

notice me Sin piFeb 18, 20177 votes

it proves that even in low elo, which takes up overwhelming majority of the playerbase, snowballing is an issue

StandgroundingFeb 18, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=SAO T1 Yui,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iVopxYtV,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-18T18:12:51.224+0000)

it proves that even in low elo, which takes up overwhelming majority of the playerbase, snowballing is an issue

if not main issue. Most games, are still stomps early. They might still throw though.

ErockandrollFeb 18, 201711 votes

You know, part of the reason why Riot gave us this snow ball meta, is because they hated the longer game times. As a result, they changed up their global buffs, (notably Baron) in order to give more closing tools, while nerfing champion kits who have strong stall tactics.

Personally, I should think that the late game should come earlier. I don't particularly like long games, but I don't particularly think late game champions should suffer, just because they don't want a 50+ minute games to be the norm.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 201726 votes

Longer game times are a map issue.

If they want shorter matches so the game is accessible to more people, they should focus more on maps like Twisted Treeline.

Also, games aren't any shorter. They're just decided much earlier.

There's a reason 'open mid' just recently exploded, even though its been around for several years. 30 minute games didn't feel like a waste of time to anyone but the Koreans playing in PC cafes. Now it is a waste of time because you know who's going to win at 10-15 minutes. The next 10-20 minutes is pointless.

Tbh, I just want it so late game champions aren't more snowball-reliant than snowball champions to even function in a game like currently.

ErockandrollFeb 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Longer game times are a map issue.

If they want shorter matches so the game is accessible to more people, they should focus more on maps like Twisted Treeline.

Also, games aren't any shorter. They're just decided much earlier.

There's a reason 'open mid' is a recent thing. 30 minute games didn't feel like a waste of time to the Koreans playing in PC cafes. Now it is a waste of time because you know who's going to win at 10-15 minutes. The next 10-20 minutes is pointless.

Tbh, I just want it so late game champions aren't more snowball-reliant than snowball champions to even function in a game like currently.

I think Riots methodology was, Those same closing mechanics would double as slingshot mechanics. Anyone who gets off a good team fight and secures a Baron can swing the match. I recall the Auto push mechanic that they added to the minion waves. It helped the winning team push wave, but it also prevented them from freezing the wave, and starving out their opponents.

But that in mind, YoloQ really doesn't have the coordination to strike back, and everyone just tilts. I really don't know what it would take to allow teams to actually slingshot back when behind. Currently, Riot does have a nerf to the tower first blood. And they are looking at nerfing the damage creep. But I don't really see Riot reverting any mechanics designed to help teams close out.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20174 votes

Baron isn't a factor in this since games are decided well before it spawns.
Auto-push primarily affects mid-late game, when champions aren't all in their respective lanes at any given time. So again, not a factor.

These mechanics are fine for the game. They aren't what's causing the current pacing issues. That's all around damage, pure and simple. Dragons, gold, items, etc all translate into that, as well as masteries, keystones, and simply bloated kits/numbers recently.

Hell, a large part of the issue is Riot messing with the EXP in the game without really understanding the consequences.

Close-out mechanics are fine, as they don't really affect anyone before 20 minutes.

The problem is that you can tell who's going to win at 10 minutes more often than not. Riot needs to find the root causes of that and correct what's going wrong there.

Ad Vitam AeternaFeb 18, 20174 votes

Also, games aren't any shorter. They're just decided much earlier.

Not really, games often go 30+ minutes still. The longer a game goes on the more even the game becomes and the greater the chance of the team that was down has to come back.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 201719 votes

I said games aren't any shorter. They're just decided earlier.

Also, it doesn't really get more even anymore at that timeframe due to the degree of snowball->gold/exp denial.

UkeNeverSemeFeb 18, 20173 votes

Some of this is also just general player skill increasing. The better players are, the harder comebacks are, meaning that comebacks in league get harder season by season.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 19, 20175 votes

So why is it elos are more and more washed up? Plat right now as well as the low dia section is as good as silver and gold back in s2-3 tbh. It just gets easier to rank up by abusing meta.

WoonStruckFeb 19, 20173 votes

You're telling me that bronze from this season are better than diamonds from seasons 3 and 4?

If so, that would make sense. However, its very, very, very unlikely that that (lol English) is the case.

TerozuFeb 19, 20172 votes

"that that" you think that's bad?

Jimmy, well Johnny had had, had, had had, had had, had had, had had the teacher more pleased.

That is a perfectly grammatical sentence, lol English.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 18, 20171 votes

Also, games aren't any shorter. They're just decided much earlier.

Actually if you compare game times from early season 5 (before cinderhulk) game times were 31.5 min on average at master tier. Now they are 26 min on average at that same tier.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20172 votes

The sample size of masters+ is far too small, which is why most people lump them in with diamond.

That said, it is notable information. However, much more pressing is the fact that late game champions are essentially nonviable when games still last 35 minutes on average.

AMYS GRAVEFeb 18, 20172 votes

http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/rankings/game-durations

Game duration separated by tier. It only looks at the current patch, but there are some infographics from the past which have been saved on other sites.

This patch has diamond at nearly 28 minutes.

Unironic SJWFeb 18, 20172 votes

Actually, the playerbase asked for this in S5 and Riot delivered.

Earl EulrichFeb 18, 20174 votes

not at all, there had never been an uproar in the boards about gametime being too long, quite the opposite as soon as Riot came through with their shorter gametime concept. It had been more of an alternative fact Riot spread amongst themselves and then tackled right away.

AnidanFeb 19, 20171 votes

I can't verify about Season 5, but I do remember a long time back when I played there was a meta wherein the average game length was nearing 40+ minutes - for reference, someone on this thread pointed out that Master+ games are down to about 26 minutes on average and Diamond at 28 minutes right now, though the matches themselves are generally decided much earlier. People complained quite a bit about that one. I'll see if I can find when that was, but I know people have complained about long games before. Rito has to be careful about making the average game length too long. I don't think people mind every 3rd or 4th game going long but when they all become slogs people start complaining.

UkeNeverSemeFeb 18, 20171 votes

Many late game champs are perfectly viable, albeit not generally op's, simply because the early game is the best place to carry from (always has been). Orianna is often seen in competitive, gp is too, sivir is seeing increased play etc. With dmg nerfs in next patch i expect late game champs to be in a great spot since they tend to have plenty of dps in their kits.

GayFluffyUnicornFeb 19, 20175 votes

Oh man, ofc lategame champs see play in fuckin LCS because barely anything happens for 30 mins. Stop taking LCS as a counterargument to soloQ issues which is played by 99,9% of the playerbase.

AnidanFeb 19, 20171 votes

It's one thing to argue how a change might affect pro games, but this topic wasn't even aimed at pro games. I'll never understand how people there manage to bring them up on topics it isn't relevant to. The competitive group has their own concerns, but since everyone understands that they basically play a different game than the common playerbase, we shouldn't worry as much about something that we know far less about than the people actually participating do - they can worry about themselves and tend to have more direct lines to Riot to voice their concerns should they come up.

Not to say that either group should be aiming to step on the toes of the other, but still.

Fondling GemsFeb 18, 20174 votes

I got a 56 minute game last night. I was in heaven.

TerozuFeb 19, 20172 votes

I had a 70 minute game the other night, and it was ranked, won that and my mundo duo partner got me a chest from his s :)

HateDaddyFeb 19, 20174 votes

Now, I can get behind this. 18 minute inhibs is fucking stupid.

WoonStruckFeb 19, 20173 votes

Game seems so unreal to me when 2 inhibs are down and everyone, including the advantaged team, is level 13 or lower.

Judge StevenFeb 19, 20171 votes

I had a game with a 13 minute inhib, no hyperbole lol

TerozuFeb 19, 20172 votes

I was in a premade with my brother, sister, our brother's brother, and my sister's girlfriend once, we won before 10 minutes.

Big LincolnFeb 18, 20172 votes

no, cos that really only means we want late game ADCs

Vayne Twitch better off never seeing them again desu

now, if we want to remove item 3123 item 3035 so that other champs get to play late game, i'm all ears

WoonStruckFeb 18, 201715 votes

You know, there is such a thing as a middle-ground.

A point where Draven is viable enough to fuck Vayne over in any given match without being a liability or overpowered.

Also, if item 3035 were removed, armor would have to be lowered too, which honestly I'm all for. Defensive stats are too effective before % pen, too ineffective after. A middle-ground on that would be nice.

Same concept applies to GW, but most healing is over-nerfed anyway. Compare to all of the no-counterplay shields in the game right now.

Big LincolnFeb 18, 20172 votes

that's what i meant

and then i can finally have my late game juggernauts :)

WoonStruckFeb 18, 201713 votes

Short-ranged non-100-0 champions being viable past 25 minutes?

https://media.giphy.com/media/11nSbZTfdg5Vrq/giphy.gif

Faceroll TacticsFeb 18, 20174 votes

Maokai, Poppy, Nautilus...

AimléssFeb 18, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You know, there is such a thing as a middle-ground.

A point where Draven is viable enough to fuck Vayne over in any given match without being a liability or overpowered.

Also, if were removed, armor would have to be lowered too, which honestly I'm all for. Defensive stats are too effective before % pen, too ineffective after. A middle-ground on that would be nice.

Same concept applies to GW, but most healing is over-nerfed anyway. Compare to all of the no-counterplay shields in the game right now.

What? If you nerf armor, and LW then you nerf a tanks ability to do his job and adcs to do theirs, so you end up with a meta even worse than now, where assassins one-shot tanks, and adcs get one shot even harder, while not even serving a purpose cause the assassins are handling the tanks lmao.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20176 votes

If you remove LW and reduce armor values by ~15-20% (that includes reducing item cost), tanks would be in about the same spot early-mid game, and much better late game.

ADCs would fare better against them early-mid game without deleting them still (just like now), but would still be able to DPS them down eventually late game due to having an additional item slot for crit or lifesteal.

#Tell me how assassins would one-shot tanks when they don't even do that ignoring ~70% of their total armor late game right now.

Also, in what way would ADCs get one-shot harder if you change DEFENSIVE MECHANICS FOR PURCHASED ARMOR that have nothing to do with the defensive stats of an ADC?

Nobody's nerfing the tank's ability to do their job, nor are they nerfing the ability for an ADC to do theirs. Do you know what math is, because it sounds to me like you don't.

Let's also consider that you think assassins would be stronger vs tanks when they'd be missing out on LW just like ADCs.

AnidanFeb 19, 20172 votes

I think someone on the Boards a while back mentioned that large-scale resist shred items shouldn't be purchasable, since that leads to major balance problems. They proposed doing, basically what DotA does where large-scale resist shred generally doesn't happen, but when it does it's based on the hero doing it. Some heroes can remove a lot of armor, but others can't remove any at all unless they specifically invest in it, but that costs them other opportunities to do so.

For reference, there's 3 item lines that reduce enemy armor in any fashion: Assault Cuirass (-5 (-30 armor in League) armor in a radius), Desolator (-7 (-42 armor in League) on whoever you hit), and Solar Crest (-12 (-72 armor in League) on whoever you use the active on). Of these, only one gives damage directly - Desolator, and that's all it gives. Assault Cuirass gives armor, attack speed, and an aura effect. Solar Crest gives no damage at all and is solely for increased survival or softening up an enemy - it's a support item, and it gives the most armor reduction because the carrier is very likely to not be a high damage threat themselves.

Compare this to League and we get... far too many options to chew through armor just through items, which means armor is absurd when it isn't punched through which means there's very little middle ground. Either you're packing enough penetration to impregnate half a country or you're hitting the enemy with Pixy Stix for all the good you're doing.

3TWarriorFeb 20, 20171 votes

hopefully when riot focuses on the tanks they'll instead focus on tank stats

the tank characters need to be balanced so that what they get is hp and not damaging items, this way a squishy can build tough but is still a squishy champ, so even if they get the benefits of tank items, they do not gain an advantage not native to their class

StandgroundingFeb 18, 20172 votes

Why each of my matches is 30+ min then? At around silver gold late game always happens.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20176 votes

30 minutes is still mid-game, btw.

Also, notice that games are decided well before 20 minutes, and 2/3 of matches end before 35 minutes.

40+ minutes is late game.

Late game champions aren't viable for a reason. This isn't some conspiracy.

Most of them lack impact so much early-mid that by the time they start to pick up steam, more than one nexus tower has probably fallen.

StandgroundingFeb 18, 20172 votes

{quoted}

30 minutes is still mid-game, btw.

Also, notice that games are decided well before 20 minutes, and 2/3 of matches end before 35 minutes.

40+ minutes is late game.

Late game champions aren't viable for a reason. This isn't some conspiracy.

Most of them lack impact so much early-mid that by the time they start to pick up steam, more than one nexus tower has probably fallen.

Then why did my last games were dominated by their Jinx and MF? They're late champs aren't they?

deadlychuckFeb 18, 20175 votes

lol, because snowballing.

Late game is best defined by all champions reaching final build with maybe 1 exception on each team. Just because one champion on each team got ahead of the rest of the team, and finished their build by 30 minutes doesn't mean you've entered the late game.

Ariel the CruelFeb 18, 20173 votes

Late game is best defined by all champions reaching final build with maybe 1 exception on each team.

Everyone full build. Support still lvl 16. Ah, the good ol days.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20172 votes

Level 16? Are you high?

Try level 14.

You almost never got rank 3 ult.

hopeful4Feb 18, 20172 votes

Would be nice if you backed up your statement about late game being absent with some non-anecdotal proof but then again its Boards so i wont hold my breath

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20176 votes

What, you mean how 66% of games never make it past 35 minutes, and regardless of that, late game champions are both unpopular and extremely unreliable due to snowball champions having such an insane advantage over them intrinsically, as well as due to the meta?

Yeah, right. Its totally anecdotal evidence. This is all data you can look up yourself and is generally accepted, and has been for the past year.

Yaśuo MainFeb 19, 20172 votes

66%? thats not real, i wanna see sources

jawd55Feb 18, 20171 votes

Stats wise games are only a couple minutes shorter on average. Further than that, teams that are ahead early (get first blood, first tower, have a gold lead) have about 70% winrate since the implementation of first tower, which is actually about the same as it was in season 5 and no one was saying that we couldn't get to late game then. This combined with the winrate of late game champs as the game progresses suggests that it is possible to reach late game and that the game is no more decided at 10 minutes than it was 2 seasons ago. So it seems that what is wanted is that Riot fix a feeling that early deficits are hard to come back from and that late game champs don't get to reach their potential. It's really difficult to fix a feeling like that because they can easily end up jacking it the other way so that it feels like early game champs have to win pre-20 or they auto lose.

Personally, I have never voted surrendered a game of league, nor have I forfeited any sports or games that I've played irl. I simply don't give up. I have had some games that feel hopeless and I still play with the intention of winning, even if I don't think that I'll win. However, I haven't felt this any more this season than since season 5 (when I joined). I have a conviction that the game isn't over till the nexus drops and I'll play until that moment with the intention of winning.

I think that we have to have patience with Riot, with the game, and with our teammates. The more we treat the game as one that is always winnable the more it will feel like it is, even if the stats or meta indicate that it's not.

WoonStruckFeb 18, 20175 votes

It's really difficult to fix a feeling like that because they can easily end up jacking it the other way so that it feels like early game champs have to win pre-20 or they auto lose.

This is a really hard sentiment to take seriously because what you're describing is a clear-cut trade-off; something that is extremely good for game balance and diversity. If you pick an early game champion, ITS BECAUSE YOU'RE TRYING TO WIN EARLY. You shouldn't be significantly more likely to win for it at any given point in the game because Riot doesn't know how to balance it.

Personally, I have never voted surrendered a game of league

I don't generally surrender either because I play a late game champion that actually has the potential to single-handedly win games if you approach teamfights correctly. It doesn't change how 'late game' doesn't really exist anymore. It doesn't change how late game champions have to deal with piss-poor early games and don't even really scale for it now.

I think that we have to have patience with Riot, with the game, and with our teammates.

I've had patience with Riot for 6 years. Seasons 6 and 7 I've lost patience with them because it genuinely seems like they're trying to dig a grave for the game.

Earl EulrichFeb 18, 20173 votes

I've had patience with Riot for 6 years. Seasons 6 and 7 I've lost patience with them because it genuinely seems like they're trying to dig a grave for the game.

pretty much the thing here...in the beginning there had been no reason for any patience, S2-4 had been just great, and even S5 had still been fairly good - but then S6 Riot just went all out starting to dismantle everything that had been fun about the game. So with that in mind the only thing you can rightfully be "patient" about is them destroying league completly, as that´s the road they seem to have choosen.