Why is Ryze allowed to build abyssal mask first item but Cassiopeia was nerfed for the same?

waiting for WoW·Dec 4, 2017·54 votes·4,914 views

Now I know Riot has stated that Cassiopeia will be getting buffs(increased E scaling) etc.. but I just wanna know why Ryze has been allowed to keep his high base damage on overload and go mask first and still put out glass cannon damage? You can clearly see every Ryze at Kespa cup doing it to.

I'd personally prefer if Cassiopeia just got her base damages back instead of more scaling. Abyssal Mask was an item specifically designed for champions like her, and she is one of the few champions to my knowledge that have a quote upon buying it. She is a champion that's supposed to focus on stacking early mana and scaling items like Ryze but now all the extra scaling she's getting will just push people towards going tear and straight AP only.

45 Comments

ShadowParkerDec 4, 201733 votes

I believe it was also that Cass was all-inning level 1 and winning purely because of her e base damage. The nerf was warranted

waiting for WoWDec 5, 20174 votes

{quoted}

I believe it was also that Cass was all-inning level 1 and winning purely because of her e base damage. The nerf was warranted

Her rank 1 and 2 empowered twin fang damage is exactly the same as before and so is her unempowered twin fang damage........

ShadowParkerDec 5, 20171 votes

Keep in mind I said level 1. Not 2 or 3, so people didn't have that empowered damage.

Z3SleeperDec 5, 20174 votes

You... you literally can't do that without a poison ability.

GayFluffyUnicornDec 5, 20173 votes

You literally can do that. Who can fight back? No other champs has 1s cooldown on their abilities.

sit kidDec 5, 20171 votes

Karthus boi

VesemirDec 5, 20172 votes

{quoted}

boi

No1 buys mask to karthus. Karthus needs AP tons of it. And he has to scale unlike Ryze who outscales you by buying a tear and a catalyst.

sit kidDec 5, 20171 votes

No1 buys mask to karthus

Did i say that? I only pointed out that karthus has a 1 sec ability (although a skillshot), so he can answer cass level 1

Karthus needs AP tons of it

karthus doesnt need tons of ap tho, his base damages are high, so mpen is more valuable, which also is why void staff is preferred a lot more often.

His ap scalings arent actually that high compared to his base damages (ofc changes after r buffs)

RalanrDec 5, 20172 votes

Oooooh...so that’s why I never feel like I’m doing much damage with Karthus.

VesemirDec 6, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Did i say that? I only pointed out that karthus has a 1 sec ability (although a skillshot), so he can answer cass level 1

karthus doesnt need tons of ap tho, his base damages are high, so mpen is more valuable, which also is why void staff is preferred a lot more often.

His ap scalings arent actually that high compared to his base damages (ofc changes after r buffs)

Karthus base damage high? Are we playing the same game? Karthus won't be Karthus unless he has 500+ AP. His main damage tool requires you to hit champions only. Not to mention with all these shields in the game HE NEEDS TONS OF AP. You get open by default that doesn't mean he doesn't need tons of AP. Have you ever played Karthus before?

ShadowParkerDec 5, 20171 votes

You could before, that's why it was nerfed.

KuroCaliberDec 4, 201720 votes

Because Cass can still build full damage regardless due to an extra item slot instead of boots.

PoskeDec 4, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because Cass can still build full damage regardless due to an extra item slot instead of boots.

What game are you playing

6 item dreams matter?

where?

FOR JUSTICEDec 4, 201716 votes

I think he means more the fact you save ~1200 gold because you dont have to buy boots. That same money you could put toward a better AP item and whatnot

SpecterVonBarenDec 5, 20174 votes

Not to mention that you also can buy a more important item sooner since you don't need to get boots as your second or even third item.

PoskeDec 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think he means more the fact you save ~1200 gold because you dont have to buy boots. That same money you could put toward a better AP item and whatnot

He doesnt mean that..

Kitten of EvilDec 5, 20174 votes

Eh, she misses out on Sorcs, which means she can't get 18 mpen. So it's not a total win-win for her.

SpaghettiVaseDec 5, 20172 votes

I wouldn't really say she needs it since she can make great use out of the item 3116 + item 3151 combo

Rift TorrentDec 5, 20176 votes

cassio e was just too strong, no counterplay avaible for it and with that in thought her just running at u spamming e (without even needing to hit q w or ult in any way) could straight up outtrade anymidlaner while her sustain from q, e and catalyst passive kept her in lane (as long as she had blue) and its not like abyssal on her isnt viable anymore, just not the optimal build anymore.

i believe abyssal mask was mainly designed for tanks, since they in general have good basedmg with bad ap scaling that benefit from the dmg amp. So its neither been intentional for ryze or cassio... it just happend to be a viable niche. the best thing riot can do if they dont want to see it on either ryze or cassio is by making the item more expensive so that is does not overshadow roa in every aspect for only 200gold diffrence

the reason why ryze is allowed to keep it is prob since he already has a bad early game and most of his dmg is to some sort dodgeable (q slow projectile speed + skillshot + small hitbox) while cassios early game is already dominating and does not even require to hit q to win trades (in early game atleast) --> reason for her appearence and domination in midlane pro-sence in all of s7 btw (till she got nerfed before worlds)

PennsDec 5, 20171 votes

Well your first paragraph reminds me of Ryze W lul.

Rift TorrentDec 5, 20171 votes

ryze w has quite high cooldown (early) thought and while many may think it has no counterplay as it is 2sec root while empowered, it also means that u actually lose about 30-50% of ur dmg. And its only a root so u can cast spells, aa, use items and so on, in addition it has low range and a chunky cast animation. So the only real no counterplay on it is flash (empowred) root with jungle gank, but u blow flash for it and if u empower it u always run the risk of them flashing away since they get a short time to react to it.

SerpensysDec 4, 20172 votes

I agree with you on this matter ...being a cass main myself i no longer get mask early against an ap match up . ITs not even effective at all early but ryze gets to be a god with it...thats unfair.

SnyperWulffDec 4, 20172 votes

Build suggestions for her? I main Syndra but im looking to get experienced with other mid champs, Cass is one of them.

TruelyTrueTruethDec 5, 20172 votes

i still really liked Cassiopeia's old passive her new passive is neat and all but i personally would like for it to give more move speed

Succubús GFDec 5, 20172 votes

Why was abyssal mask allowed in the mid lane anyway. Ridiculous that it looks so overloaded

Eternum NocturneDec 5, 20172 votes

Wait, are we actually starting a "ryze OP" thread?

First off unless you're against a Ryze man, he can start the game with a deathcap and still be crap.

Second off he will get reworked soon so dw about it (also a reason why no one bothers to main Ryze any more).

The DeckownerDec 5, 20172 votes

Because if you give her back high base dmg on E she will start corrupting pot and force people out of lane lv1.

waiting for WoWDec 5, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iNgz4hAE,comment-id=0013,timestamp=2017-12-05T13:10:33.841+0000)

Because if you give her back high base dmg on E she will start corrupting pot and force people out of lane lv1.

She can still do that lol her unempowered twin fang damage is exactly the same... I don't know why people keep saying this when it's completely wrong. That guy with like 25 upvotes on the first page is completely wrong and so are all the people that upvoted him.

RiotKingCobra did that to Hashinshin on november 4 which was way after she had her EMPOWERED twin fang damage base damage reduced at ranks 3-5. The only reason why you might not see that happening now as much is because Cassiopeia can't get any flat MPEN on the new rune system, and it didn't work before either if people were smart and took 9 MR glyphs.

VesemirDec 5, 20172 votes

I also hate his snare to the core. Its a point-click insta snare that has 0 counterplay. Once you get snared he Q E Q and takes half of your hp. Not to mention you can't really farm if Ryze is half decent. He builds a tear and an abyssal and nukes any apc who actually build damage items...

Agent CorgiDec 4, 20171 votes

It's been a long time since I've played Ryze, I actually forgot how to build him. Is getting Abyssal Mask on him becoming the new "norm" for him? What's the story behind the Abyssal Rush?

Spank the FoxDec 5, 20171 votes

Probably same reason why RoA was good for him and why Abyssal Sceptre used to be good for midlaners.

Hard counter enemy AP, abuse your decent base damages with the aura and you scale with mana. Throw in a tiny bit of sustain and you can spam like crazy with Tear.

Serika ZeroDec 5, 20171 votes

are you racist towards mages of colour?!!!!!!

LordGeovanniDec 5, 20171 votes

actually abysal staff was designed for champions like her but it was bad on tanks who it should have also been built on because they nerf tank damage cause of mage and adc complaining after they stopped building defensive items 6 th item.

Rebel FoxDec 5, 20171 votes

Cass can continually utilize the Magic Damage Boost from the item due to her range and her consistent ability to cast her E. Compare that to Ryze, who did receive nerfs to the cooldown on his W and his E, (as well as unwarrented nerfs to his W root time). This means that Cass can continually cast an ability that does a fair amount of damage that is point and click, vs Ryze, who gets 1-3 Q's off all of which are skill shots. Cass also has peal from her W preventing movement abilities, and her Ult both for protection. Ryze literally only has his W for any sort of defense. Also Ryze still sits as the lowest winrate in the game .

Bouncemaster ZacDec 5, 20171 votes

He also still has that "gets free damage from building mana like literally every other mage" thing. As long as he keeps that and Rune Prison they're gonna have to keep reworking him.

My Waifu VanillaDec 5, 20171 votes

I mean he HAS to EW now to get a meaningful root which means you are taking quite a bit less damage. Outside of that....his main damage source is tied to a skill shot that he has to hit multiple times compared to Cassiopeia either having to hit one Q or throw W somewhere near you.

BeginningDec 5, 20171 votes

Let's just say Cassiopeia was already in a good spot when people found out that Abyssal Mask was good on her, however, Ryze wasn't really in the "best spot" when the player base starting playing that due to the non stop Riot nerfs on Ryze. Cassiopeia got the same treatment Ryze did, however, it was just too much and it made her no damage now, glad they're finally buffing her.

T4underboltDec 5, 20171 votes

Lololo what nerf? That pathetic -10 base dmg on q followed by obvious buff of her e ap ratio? She got buffed lol. That 10 dmg on q means nothing cause she spams e anyway. Bring back that she has to hit q to actually spam e.

General Esdeath Dec 5, 20171 votes

Something something Ryze rework something something we'll hit the mark this time something something leave his W alone

revliledpembrokeDec 5, 20171 votes

To give him a justification for his next rework, obviously

BârdDec 5, 20171 votes

Because Cass was picking up abyssal mask and crushing lanes she had absolutely no business winning.

TerozuDec 5, 20171 votes

Its because her main damage is targetted and her groundings last longer.

Shadow HazardDec 5, 20171 votes

Cass was able to get away with it before because of the fact she was building archangels giving her damage some scaling from mana and allowing her to go for a more defensive option. Ryze on the other hand has mana scaling build into his kit, some people are starting to figure out that you can go transcendence on ryze and stack a bunch of tanky cdr+mana items (outside of still normally rushing tear), and become disproportionately tanky for out much damage he can output, probably the most true AP juggernaut in the game frankly.

So ryze can't have that synergy nerfed without actually gutting his kit.