I mean you can't have it both ways.
People begged Riot to nerf the competing class of carries all season as well as the only factors that kept ADC in check before, and they wonder why ADC feel like they're next to immortal and untouchable now?
Iręlía61 votesThe only people who whined about mages and assassins are ADC's and sometimes tanks.
Now tanks are whining about ADC along side mages and assassins.
I feel like its a circle jerk. I would rather Mage/Assassin meta over a tank meta or adc meta for two reasons.
Tanks are targets and cc machines, ADC's dps needs to ramp up over longer fights. Not bursting assassins and mages.
The mage/assassin meta is the closest to the "correct" meta you can get. They ARE the burst dps roles after all.
Edge of Daybreak25 votes[{quoted}](name=Q The Keg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2qFYatE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-27T22:51:15.032+0000)
The only people who whined about mages and assassins are ADC's and sometimes tanks.
Mage players complain about assassins a lot and assassin players often complain about how easily some mages bully them out of lane/ do their job better than them. Any tank player whining about mages or assassins is usually just misguided so we can write that off.
xJLx MCHammer5 votes[{quoted}](name=Stabby Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2qFYatE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T23:29:27.877+0000)
Mage players complain about assassins a lot and assassin players often complain about how easily some mages bully them out of lane/ do their job better than them. Any tank player whining about mages or assassins is usually just misguided so we can write that off.
Probably because any one assassin can beat majority of assassins. It can be annoying
Lady Hammerlock17 votes[{quoted}](name=Stabby Dude,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2qFYatE,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-10-27T23:29:27.877+0000)
Mage players complain about assassins a lot and assassin players often complain about how easily some mages bully them out of lane/ do their job better than them. Any tank player whining about mages or assassins is usually just misguided so we can write that off.
Back then didn't mage players complain about assassins because of the unfairness between their defensive options? Most notably if you were an AD assassin you could build 
and annoy the living shit out of them
GGLineaR19 votesStill can, actually. 
only helps so much.
Plus the usual offenders 
and 
have too much safety built into their kit for how easy they are to play, and how much damage they do.
is in a similar situation, but he's a lot easier to fuck up, given how few good ones I see.
LordGeovanni2 votesMaybe because Assassins are designed to kill squishies that include mages not the other way around. Not that they cant kill assassins but their job is to poke out people and if they recall because they had low health and you didnt 1 shot combo them That as mages power not for you to cry because the enemy played safe but still missing out on all the advantages of being full hp. mages are only supposed to get kills off of people who stay around for too long on low hp. Though Assassins have too low cooldowns for how much damage the they do same with mages assassins should have longer windows of down time than mages.
GGLineaR2 votesDude, if you're gonna rant, space out those paragraphs a bit so my eyes dont start bleeding.
I was just pointing out that the defensive options ad assassins have are still unfair to mages, given that they have and .
The way he phrased it sounded like he thought the lethality problem just disappeared.
I understand assassins use these things to do their job, but and do their jobs too well because of their innate safety, and giving them even more damage, and more survivability for free.
All the other assassins are fine, it's just those two. lol
If mages had some better armor items, maybe something else that built off of 
, but didn't give stasis, I think we'd be fine.
LordGeovanni1 votesMages are not supposed to have big defensive items if you want defense buy it but dont except damage attached to it .
Votable Jester2 votesBut assassins are supposed to build big defenses????
: ~400 health magic shield + 45 mr + lifesteal/spellvamp
: 250 health and spell shield
IcyPepper17 votesI just want ADC to stop being mandatory, for crying out loud.
AirKingNeo6 votesAnd I want burst mids and tank tops and supporting supports to stop being mandatory, because that makes just as much sense and pushing DPS champions out of the DPS role.
IcyPepper10 votesAnd I want burst mids and tank tops
Top has plenty of variety, though. Plenty of fighters, bruisers, tanks and the occasional mage.
Mid isn't as versatile, but it has assassins and the occasional marksman too.
and supporting supports
There's at least three different playstyles available for the support role: enchanter, warden, and catcher.
because that makes just as much sense and pushing DPS champions out of the DPS role.
Honestly I want that lane to have just as much variety too as the rest.
It's not that I don't want the marksman as a class to never be played, but I want them to be as equally viable and optional as the rest.
Hell, maybe the problem is a lack of DPS options. Maybe we have too many burst AP?
AirKingNeo2 votesFighters are varients of bruisers, who are tanky. Mages don't go top lane.
Mid is literally burst only. Assassins, mages.
Catchers are literally glorified wardens.
Then Riot should make more marksmen to increase that diversity.
Iota Theta4 votesFighters are varients of bruisers, who are tanky. Mages don't go top lane.
Fine, top has Juggernauts, Skirmishers, and Divers that get played quite a bit. Certain mages can go top, but they are usually more durable ones.
Mid is literally burst only. Assassins, mages.
And that’s why Lucian, Corki, Cassio, Ryze, and Azir are big mid picks? All DPS champs, some AD, some AP.
Catchers are literally glorified wardens.
No. If you’re gonna make that claim, then do it properly. If anything they are more in line with Vanguards, which engage on an enemy. Catchers are more focused on picks but Most are squishier (Rakan, Morg, Zyra, Bard), while others are tankier but are more about single targets (Blitz and Thresh, Nautilus might be more catcher than Vanguard at this point since he is more single target lockdown).
Then Riot should make more marksmen to increase that diversity.
Riot should make more dps viable bot lane. Juggernauts, mages. Wasn’t Azir originally designed as a dps mage with a turret damage ability to allow him to go botlane? Morde and Darius are other decent examples of tankier melee dps, while Yi and Yasuo are squishier melee dps. I think what he wants are better ways for champs like these to be viable bot so marksmen are not mandatory..at least not mandatory bot lane.
AirKingNeo2 votesCorki and Lucian are caster ADCs, they deal a mix of burst and DPS. Similarly, Ryze and Azir (moreso Ryze) are mages who do slightly longer combos and seem like DPS. Cassio is the only actual DPS mid.
Rakan and Morg are enchanters. Zyra and Brand are control-AoE mages who provide decent base damage for laning and zoning power mid game.
Riot should make more dps viable bot lane. Juggernauts, mages.
Why? Why should every class be suddenly viable bot lane? Does that mean every class should be allowed everywhere? Should ADCs be viable top lane? I certainly don't want that.
There's a reason the role system works how it does and anyone who says "ADCs are mandatory" have no clue how the game works from a basic fucking level. Let's go over it:
Top Lane: Splitpushing, Brawling, Tanking, and playing a counter to this (anti-bruisers). Jungle: The ability to self sustain, kill the jungle, and gank. Mid Lane: Deal burst damage. Bot Lane: Deal consistent DPS. Support: Peel for the team.
Now let's go over who can do that role.
Top Lane: Bruisers and Tanks, but also Anti-Bruisers and Skirmishers. Jungle: Assassins*, tanks, fighters (they suck). Mid Lane: Assassins, Mages, some Caster Marksmen Bot Lane: Caster Marksmen, Hypercarry Marksmen. Support: Enchanter, Warden, some control mages.
Wow, it's like The ADC role has TWO CLASSES just like mid lane has assassins and mages, where one is the early game based on (Caster/Assassin) and the other is late game (Hypercarry/Mage).
LordGeovanni4 votesadcs are viable top lane and mid lane and jungle and support
AirKingNeo2 votesTop lane ADCs: None
Mid Lane: Corki, Lucian
Jungle: Kindred
Support: None (MF is only a Zyra counter)
LordGeovanni4 votesTop 
Mid 
Jungle 
Support 
Mf support was a thing far before zyra counter game in lcs.
Just off of the top of my head
Fairyfleur4 votesIn what world are midlaners without immense burst always out of the scene? We have 
,
,
,
, and 
to name a few. A lot of them might not be especially strong right now but they have certainly been very strong and/or viable in the past.
AirKingNeo3 votesQuestion mark? Aside from Aurelion and Cassiopeia, who are the only true DPS mages, Anivia's and Zillian's bursts are frontloaded in mostly 1 ability. Galio isn't a mage.
Fairyfleur3 votesI'm saying that those four don't have burst comparable to the likes of Syndra, Ahri, or Orianna. Galio is currently being turned into a battle mage, which is another class that also can go mid and doesn't focus on burst.
AirKingNeo3 votesZilean and Anivia are just delayed but still instant at their time of delay, like Leblanc.
Galio's kit is literally a tank kit. Riot's attempt is going to fail simply because he doesn't have a kit that works as a mage. Hence why old Galio failed.
Fairyfleur3 votesThen why is Anivia labeled as a control/battle mage and Zilean labeled as a unique playstyle, and not a burst mage?
SSrikeShadow5 votesOnly way to really make ADCs non-mandatory would be for towers to take ap damage like they take ad damage.
AirKingNeo2 votesThey already do.
Also ADCs are just as mandatory as every other class is.
IcyPepper9 votesAlso ADCs are just as mandatory as every other class is.
No, they're not. We've been over this.
ADC is the only mandatory class. Every other position on the map has more variance on what class (not role, like DPS, but class) you can play.
DeusVult20 voteswhat tank players whined about assassins and mages?
I need to know so I can revoke their tanking privileges
Catastrop4 votesThere was hilarious point in time when tank players were crying over dying too quickly. It was in part mostly hilarious because these players were those braindead types that thought they could dive into an entire enemy team and just walk away like nothing happened.
Marshbouy10 votesThere was hilarious point in time when tank players were crying over dying too quickly.
this is all the time. Tank players on the boards think they should be able to survive 1v5 for at least 10 seconds.
Solitair4 votes[{quoted}](name=Q The Keg,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2qFYatE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-10-27T22:51:15.032+0000)
The only people who whined about mages and assassins are ADC's and sometimes tanks.
Now tanks are whining about ADC along side mages and assassins.
I feel like its a circle jerk. I would rather Mage/Assassin meta over a tank meta or adc meta for two reasons.
Tanks are targets and cc machines, ADC's dps needs to ramp up over longer fights. Not bursting assassins and mages.
The mage/assassin meta is the closest to the "correct" meta you can get. They ARE the burst dps roles after all.
I will guarantee you. Nobody and nobody's mother will miss assassin meta when it comes back around.
zeskgames2 votesThe mage/assassin meta is the closest to the "correct" meta you can get. They ARE the burst dps roles after all.
That may be true for some but a problem could arise if those assassins and mages become too strong. Remember Rengar getting kills in 0.01 second? Pepperidge Farm remembers. Also there was the fact that assassins (I don't really know about mages) had two options in that meta, they either got really fed and started one-shotting everyone at high speed or they would get underfed and when they attempted to assassinate, would get blown off the face of the earth. What I'm trying to say with all of this is that being one-shot isn't fun, and on the other hand feeling like you can't contribute isn't much fun either. Am I saying the ADC meta is good? No, I mean in a perfect world there shouldn't be a meta because all champs would be equally good. What I'm saying is that a mage/assassin (mostly assassin) meta wouldn't be much better either.
HaIlMonitor5 votesRemember Rengar getting kills in 0.01 second?
Wow a 6/0 assassin one shooting a glass cannon ADC. #OPOP.
IPERFECTO4 votes6\0 adc killing glass cannon assasin while support peeled for him.#OPOP.
P.S. your freelo rengar will never comeback, deal with it.Learn some other champs that needs some skill from now on.
HaIlMonitor4 votesP.S I have a 68% winrate on rengar and didn't start playing ranked until after his Q damage nerf, aka his weakest state. Think as you will, but some of us actually like it when our champ doesn't have an 80% banrate.
Purgë1 votesadcs main always btching about champs they btched about the assasins and btched about camille until they got guted to the ground and no longer viable to play ,the only problem with the assains meta is that they could one shot bruisers and fighters wich is so wrong,assains should not have the damage to burst a bruiser but to burst an adc cuz that's there job ,assains damage was an overkill therfore they need just enough damage to kill the adc and peace out ,not one shotting everything.
HaIlMonitor3 votesGenerally if an assassin is killing a bruiser though that assassin is fed, or the bruiser is behind. Ifall champs are equal though Bruiser > Assassin > ADC every time, but sometimes that zed mid will be 5/0 and that darius will be 0/2, he shouldna't just auto win vs him.
Devölution18 votesYES AND NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT BRUISERS,LOVE IT.
Morendabanus4 votesWhat's a bruiser?
:^)
Hexs Fortune2 votesYES AND NOBODY GIVES A FUCK ABOUT BRUISERS,LOVE IT.
You talking about Juggernauts or Divers? [sg-lux-2]
Jet Sett13 votes
and 
are both champions that would be considered "bruisers" but J4 is a Diver and Darius is a Juggernaut.
I think it's counterproductive for people to chastise/nitpick about the usage of general game terms versus Riot's special categorization. I'd understand if you were looking for a more focused correlation, but this was just a general, vague statement.
The Deckowner15 votesPeople asked for mage and assassin nerfs but they didn't ask for broken support iteem, adc item buff and tank nerfs.
TEA Nietzsche 6 votesYes they did ask for broken support items, back when Redemption was strong people here actually said that the item was fine and Ardent Censer/Knight's Vow were simply underpowered.
Also what tank nerfs lul. I don't think swapping the OP tanks qualifies as "tank nerfs".
OP Garen Support11 votesMages were never broken to the point to have their own meta. Cancer assassin Meta was only OP because of the unfair defense items 
. Usually assassins destroyed mid lane and went down bot already fed and killed them as well.
Most of the time only these champs roamed botlane: 
Notice that they are the cancer brigade of assassins? (except diana but she damn worked like an assassin 1--2 seasons ago)
People also seem to mistake as a mage.
Everyone who thinks that building as a first item is a valid build vs assassins never played a champion that is mana hungry.
Mostly ADC's bitched about other classes. Tanks were always good vs Mages and Assassins.
Riot screwed over Assassins , Mages and Tanks with their "class" update. The last Tank update was "adc buff" update in disguise. They stole the universal item used by mages as well 
and made it AD only. Overall ADC items only buffed while everything else nerfed to the ground and support items were overbuffed as well instead of actually Making supports more enjoyable and buffing them instead. Now the already strong champions are even more broken.
Worst part about this meta is that is the most unskilled unfun meta for anyone involved except for the adc.
Where is the skill in right clicking and dealing over 1000-1500 damage with 1 basic attack? (thats a 
ult worth of damage with each basic attack, you know the type everyone cries about dealing damage)Doing it of course with a big load of attack speed. Meanwhile healing back any damage done. (not to mention the support heal, shields, CC).
If ADC's are this broken by their damage at least make them skilled champions by removing right click targeting. Yes make their basic attack skillshots. Now show us how cool you are when you flash that Lv7 mastery when you miss everything.(of course I know it wont be implemented because the no skill adc's would bitch like always)
Also what about the 500 AP stolen from mages? Back in the day I had a chance to have around 1000 AP now it is considered good if I have 400.
Thilmer5 votes[{quoted}](name=OP Garen Support,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h2qFYatE,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2017-10-28T08:39:31.835+0000)
Also what about the 500 AP stolen from mages? Back in the day I had a chance to have around 1000 AP now it is considered good if I have 400.
I feel this so much. I recently started playing Veigar again, and I feel great when I reach late and have 800 AP and can buy 
and is not a shity overpriced ítem.
But back in the day, I could do that with any mage, not only with a specific mage that gets +200 AP thanks to his passive. What the hell happens with AP?!
PaffWasTaken11 votesPeople asked them to be nerfed so every classes would be on equal grounds Riot both nerfed them a lot harder than they should've and they buffed ADCs like there was no tomorrow You shouldn't wonder why people are whining so much, since this is the only way the balance team understands anything about their game, because they struggle a lot lately to make anything balanced
Guttler8 votesI honestly don't see it as being a problem of mages and assassin's being nerfed. The problem with ADC domination that exists in todays meta comes from changes made to ADC items in 7.9 that reduced the cost of completed items allowing them to power spike sooner. ADC items need a price hike to lower their gold efficiency. If you want to "carry" then you need to pay for it. Fighter/Bruiser and mage items are usually much more expensive and much lower gold effeciency then ADC items, while tank items tend to be slighly cheaper but also gold inefficient. (although, that isn't true with zeal items being super cheap).
Speaking of tanks, the "regular" tank items aren't even being purchased anymore because Riot has supercreeped the support tank items like 
which used to be 400 HP and 60 armor earlier this year.
too. While gutting tradional tank items like 
. They should probably take a look at just how garbage tank items are that tanks have basically become 2nd supports due to those item just being strait up better for less gold.
Thilmer2 votesSpeaking of tanks, the "regular" tank items aren't even being purchased anymore because Riot has supercreeped the support tank items like
It's impressive how bad is rigth now. I haven't seen one in months, and it used to be a "must buy" in any top laner or tank support.
Judge Steven7 votesDon't forget about "adc in 2k17 lul" that was still spammed months after it actually made some sense.
woodvsmurph6 votesI don't recall anyone asking to nerf the mage class. People got excited about mage update - hoping for some improved items and stuff; especially more/better magic pen options. Instead, items were cheapened and lost a ton of their stats. Like why don't you see deathcap regularly in pro scene now? Maybe because ap champs are about 200ap short of what they'd get last season from the same build, so they need to go weird item combos like lich bane, protobelt, and gunblade just to have enough extra damage amplifiers to match the burst they used to have. No one in their right mind asked for a mage nerf this season. On individual overpowered mages, sure, but not on the class. That would be akin to when vayne could 3-shot everything in preseason and people asked to nerf her - then claiming people asked for every adc to be nerfed.
People didn't ask for assassins to be nerfed because they were assassins; they asked for it because lethality was too strong and almost everyone (toplane bruisers, mid assassins, jungle assassins and carries, and adc's were all abusing it). Sure people might have said "nerf assassins" or "nerf talon", but what they were MOSTLY meaning was "nerf lethality".
