Since Ahri is apparently really strong.

LatetotheRace·Jan 2, 2017·4 votes·1,091 views

Can we finally get rid of her Q speed boost? This was never supposed to be part of her identity, but when DFG was removed (may he rest in peace) y'all just cobbled some half-assed solution together. I won't touch the true damage as that's been there forever and really adds to her damage potential, but the movement speed is nothing more than an excessive after thought. P.S. If orb has a cast time, we can get rid of it to compensate, similar to Vel'koz... as a whole.

22 Comments

Risk of FateJan 2, 20174 votes

Katarina Syndra Leblanc Viktor

^ all outdamage her. She's actually comparatively weak right now in terms of damage. Or rather, when I play her now she feels weaker and I'm personally struggling in some games now.

TyrekGoldenspearJan 2, 20172 votes

Hey as a Viktor player I have lots of trouble against Ahri. Got any tips?

Risk of FateJan 2, 20172 votes

If I were the Viktor going against the Ahri, I would say there's one major thing you could do is make sure the river is warded at all times since she loves to roam. First back, drop a control ward and make absolute sure you know where she is at all times. If your wave is pushed and you lose sight, ping missing and head bot right away. You don't need to go the full lane, just enough to see if she's heading down and counter gank.

In terms of dodging her abilities, bait the charm which, if they're a decent Ahri, they won't lead with it. If you can dodge that, try to turn on her and get your stun off, I would say after the first dash as the placement time takes a second. Keep behind minions when you can and just try to poke with empowered laser.

Pre-6, have jungler try to gank mid if she's about halfway up the lane. Late game, protect your carry and stay near your tanks. She misses charm, turn on her to force her to ult out. While her ult is down, she's pretty much useless for a minute or so, take advantage of it by siege-ing a tower. If you kill her before she gets the ult, shove the wave and see if you can take another in that time. You want to make sure she can't get enough to snowball as it only takes one good kill to get it rolling.

Let's say you're still struggling. About the 40m mark she starts falling off which means your tanky front line should have no trouble dealing with her.

TyrekGoldenspearJan 2, 20171 votes

Woah I wasn't expecting so many useful replies.

Thanks guys!

ValyrianBladeJan 2, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Hey as a Viktor player I have lots of trouble against Ahri. Got any tips?

Dodge her charm, or just sit behind minions if you can't dodge it.

Clear with your death ray after she clears the wave. Ping any missings and you push fast enough to punish the tower if she tries to roam. Keep wards up so you know which way she goes, you can try to follow if you want.

Enjoy a free laning phase, outscale her for free, and win teamfights late game with the absurdly higher amount of damage you have (and you'll also be much tankier than her late game with Rylai's and your shield).

Fondling GemsJan 2, 20172 votes

Push waves in early. Ahri doesn't have the mana costs to keep up with Viktor. Unless she prioritizes damage over everything or gets ahead then she takes 2 Q's to clear caster minions, and even then needs 5 ranks in Q or needs to be quite far ahead. Shove her in over and over and she wont be able to keep up.

Don't try roaming unless she is dead/just backed as she is far superior to Vik in that regard. Just keep shoving her and forcing her to burn mana/miss cs, especially early.

In teamfights stick near the back so Ahri has to burn at least 2 ults dashes to get to you, because after that she is dead. She will burn the frontline better than you due to true damage, but you have more range. Also note both vik and Ahri are strongest when they are being chased due to how Vik E and ahri Q work.

Rock MDJan 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEc2qpHJ,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2017-01-02T03:47:26.816+0000)

Push waves in early. Ahri doesn't have the mana costs to keep up with Viktor. Unless she prioritizes damage over everything or gets ahead then she takes 2 Q's to clear caster minions, and even then needs 5 ranks in Q or needs to be quite far ahead. Shove her in over and over and she wont be able to keep up.

Don't try roaming unless she is dead/just backed as she is far superior to Vik in that regard. Just keep shoving her and forcing her to burn mana/miss cs, especially early.

In teamfights stick near the back so Ahri has to burn at least 2 ults dashes to get to you, because after that she is dead. She will burn the frontline better than you due to true damage, but you have more range. Also note both vik and Ahri are strongest when they are being chased due to how Vik E and ahri Q work.

She pushes much harder than Viktor until he gets his Hex core.

Also, Ahri won't burn down the frontline faster than Viktor that's a downright lie.

Fondling GemsJan 2, 20171 votes

She pushes a bit harder very early, but after their first back Vik pushes harder. Ahri also doesn't have the mana to push Vik in that hard early without having to back very quickly. Don't even try to convince me otherwise, I run a lot of Mana regen in my AP runes/masteries and Ahri is my default mid laner.

Ahri will also burn the frontline better for 2 reasons. If Vik is close enough to the frontline to be using Q then he is close enough that Ahri can jump on him and burst him. If he is using ult on the front line then he is being pretty silly. That means that he is only going to be dealing damage with E and the rare Q if he is trying to play safe vs the Ahri.

In comparison Ahri can use Q and W on the frontline, with Q doing true damage on the way back. Her cds are also lower than Viktor's, so while his E might even do as much damage as her Q+W, she can use those abilities much more and will burn faster over time.

I am saying this as someone who used to play a ton of Viktor and now plays quite a bit of Ahri.

Rock MDJan 2, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEc2qpHJ,comment-id=00000000000200000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T04:00:10.468+0000)

She pushes a bit harder very early, but after their first back Vik pushes harder. Ahri also doesn't have the mana to push Vik in that hard early without having to back very quickly. Don't even try to convince me otherwise, I run a lot of Mana regen in my AP runes/masteries and Ahri is my default mid laner.

Ahri will also burn the frontline better for 2 reasons. If Vik is close enough to the frontline to be using Q then he is close enough that Ahri can jump on him and burst him. If he is using ult on the front line then he is being pretty silly. That means that he is only going to be dealing damage with E and the rare Q if he is trying to play safe vs the Ahri.

In comparison Ahri can use Q and W on the frontline, with Q doing true damage on the way back. Her cds are also lower than Viktor's, so while his E might even do as much damage as her Q+W, she can use those abilities much more and will burn faster over time.

I am saying this as someone who used to play a ton of Viktor and now plays quite a bit of Ahri.

Yeah and I'm saying this as someone who mained Ahri for 3 seasons with Viktor as my second pick before he was even reworked. If Viktor can't get close enough to the frontline to be dishing out damage... how is he going to be dishing out damage??? On top of that his ER does more theoretical damage to the frontline in a fight than Ahri's whole kit. That says nothing of his constant Q damage output.

And the only reason to ever need mana regen is because either

You try harassing and pushing at the same time but don't ever try to line them up so that you can do both.
You have no damage because you specced it all in mana regen.

Fondling GemsJan 2, 20171 votes

Ahri can push Vik in for the first couple of waves, but she does not have the mana to always be doing that, especially when it is easier for Vik to hit the whole wave and her then it is for her to hit vik and the whole wave.

So while she will shove in she can't stop Vik from getting his upgrade without a jungler gank, which she wont get if she is hard pushing. Over the course of the whole laning phase Viktor has much more waveclear than Ahri, despite being slightly behind in the very early game.

Also Viktor should generally not be using his ult on the whole frontline as that also opens him up to getting jumped on. He generally wants to save his ult for dropping it on a lot of people, ideally squishies, so he can blow them up with aoe. I also explained that Viktor E has a much longer range than Ahri's kit if she doesn't want to dash into the entire enemy team. As such he can still poke the frontline while staying farther back than Ahri.

Also note that I was explaining how someone who has trouble vs Ahri as Viktor should play. It makes sense to assume he has no advantage over the Ahri and is possibly behind. In those situations Ahri will do slightly more to flat out more damage to the frontline than a viktor trying to play safe. I never said their damage wasn't comparable, but I am speaking under the assumption that Viktor has no advantage and is trying to be safe vs an Ahri, in which case his general damage to the frontline is going to be a bit lower, since anytime he doesn't have ult is a free kill for Ahri as she can dodge the second hit of E and W stun, so Vik only has possible first hit of E + Q > AA

That means that a Viktor trying to play safe in a teamfight is only going to be harassing with E and the occasional Q on an enemy frontliner that gets too close. He is generally only going to be dropping ult if someone gets in his face or Ahri is forced back, in which case he can get closer and nuke their backline.

Rock MDJan 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fondling Gems,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=iEc2qpHJ,comment-id=0000000000020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-02T04:45:08.323+0000)

Ahri can push Vik in for the first couple of waves, but she does not have the mana to always be doing that, especially when it is easier for Vik to hit the whole wave and her then it is for her to hit vik and the whole wave.

So while she will shove in she can't stop Vik from getting his upgrade without a jungler gank, which she wont get if she is hard pushing. Over the course of the whole laning phase Viktor has much more waveclear than Ahri, despite being slightly behind in the very early game.

Also Viktor should generally not be using his ult on the whole frontline as that also opens him up to getting jumped on. He generally wants to save his ult for dropping it on a lot of people, ideally squishies, so he can blow them up with aoe. I also explained that Viktor E has a much longer range than Ahri's kit if she doesn't want to dash into the entire enemy team. As such he can still poke the frontline while staying farther back than Ahri.

Both their waveclear spells, before first back, will not one shot the backline. Viktor's does LESS than Ahri's and hits fewer minions. On top of that his costs more mana and has a higher CD. Ahri will have the advantage on Viktor 95% of the time before his first Hex Core, not his first back as the general rule of thumb is to get him to back before he can get that item. The only time Viktor has the advantage is level 1 and he has to ride the level 1 Q spam momentum all the way to Hex Core. Until then Ahri is a stronger pusher and will not have an issue pushing Viktor out of lane. Alternately, she can opt to harass him because he has a shorter range outside of his E.

And yes when a teamfight breaks out the best thing Viktor can do is use his ult asap when he sees multiple people clumped together. That's usually the frontline or someone diving him.

Fondling GemsJan 2, 20171 votes

The thing is that ahri pushing hard the first few levels isn't a big deal. Her roaming is meh if she doesn't have ult or the mana to spam Q to get there and back + fight, so she is pretty confined to lane until lv 6 minimum in most situations. When she pushes like that without ult she doesn't have an easy way to escape a gank, and trying to escape will generally cost a charm and Q, which is a good chunk of mana on someone who will go heal up in the jungle anyways. Viktor also has a lot of tools for farming under turret, so he doesn't suffer as much as most mid laners early.

Yes Ahri has the early tools to shove in, but she leaves herself very open when doing so, cuts her lane off from getting ganks, and she can't really do anything with it. So Ahri will generally freeze lane so she can poke more easily and only hard push when she wants to back or sees the jungler elsewhere and wants to bounce the wave.

So while Ahri can push in early, she can't do much with it nor does it hurt Viktor that much. As soon as Viktor has hextech, which is his first item, his waveclear is vastly superior to ahris.

Also Viktor can hit all 6 minions just like Ahri, and unlike Ahri he can stand away from the minion wave, so Ahri can't hit him and the wave while she has to stand in a position where it is easy to get hit with the wave, especially since she has to stay in line with the wave to make sure the orb hits all the minions twice.

What I don't get is what you are trying to suggest. Tyrek was looking for strategies to deal with Vik, I offered advice from my experience in the matchup. You then tell me that my advice is wrong, but I have yet to see you offer anything else. Viktor beats Ahri through farming and pushing. He does not have the roam of Ahri so he loses there. Ahri will also often beat him in fighting because she has the tools to avoid a lot of his damage. She can easily get out of 2nd E hit, W, and ult, while Viktor is an immobile mage, making him an easier champ to kill for a skillshot champion like Ahri.

The one way he is superior is his Waveclear. My advice was to utilize that as it is one of the 3 win conditions for a lane (Roaming, Farming, Killing) and the only one he is better at than Ahri.

Rock MDJan 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Hey as a Viktor player I have lots of trouble against Ahri. Got any tips?

Poke her down if she makes herself vulnerable and then just farm up and stay safe. You'll want to group up earlier than usual because you have a distinct teamfighting advantage on her.

If she jumps on you drop your burst quickly (she has a 2 second CD between dashes that doesn't decrease with CDR). She should either die or be unable to rejoin the fights.

You outscale her very early on (around 2 items and level 13). If you can take advantage of that you should be fine.

Neeko N DimeJan 2, 20172 votes

You outtrade her lvl 1 with q 9 times out of 10. Use your E whenever she tries to cs. When I ahri I sparingly cs with abilities or else I'd be oom by lvl 3. I can't really say what your best play is after lvl 6 tho because as ahri I usually have no problem all in on viktors unless of course I miss a charm and biff my q or something. U could always just play the farm game and roam since your early game waveclear is > than ahri

PennsJan 2, 20173 votes

Kat is melee, LB has a delay, Syndra is getting nerfed, Viktor is... Viktor. Kind of funny how half the people here seem to be Ahri mains and every thread saying Ahri should get nerfed gets insta downvoted lel

Risk of FateJan 2, 20172 votes

Katarina also does more damage on an ult and her blinks are insane, LB does more damage. I'm not saying she needs a nerf or not, I'm just going by the matches I've struggled against personally. Ahri can't compare to the 300% damage of Katarina, LeBlanc's passive and snare has taken almost my entire health bar and I have some MR. Viktor with his stun, ult and death ray just pop.

I'm sorry, should I be suggesting things like Yasuo because he's OP even though I win lane almost every time? I have beaten many an Ahri playing Lux, Morgana, and Taliyah, she's mobile, but I can guarantee you that almost every other mid laner does FAR more damage than she could early game. Mid game is where she shines, her early is weak and she falls off late.

GirardJan 2, 20174 votes

Isn't she pretty much universally known as the kite mage?

LatetotheRaceJan 2, 20171 votes

What exactly is her charm and ult? Oh right. As I stated previously, it was a change added to compensate for the loss of DFG. I no longer see it's relevance or necessity.

Fondling GemsJan 2, 20174 votes

She is kinda meant to have that speed boost. It wasn't just cobbled together, her very original concept was as a kite mage, someone who could stick near a target but keep falling back. Due to her old E plus DFG though she was played as an assassin. Now she is actually functioning in her niche.

While Ahri is still strong, she isn't overbearing right now. She is a really good example of how a champion can be strong without being overpowered and doesn't have a negative impact on game health. She hasn't needed changes in a really long time, even with all the mid lane meta shifts she has sat through it all hardly changing, that shows she is in a really good position.

Notes: Yes I play quite a bit of Ahri, she is my default mid laner. That being said I don't like playing champions just because they are OP. To me Ahri feels far more balanced and possessing of a much stronger identity than she used to. This coming from someone who actually tried to play her as a kite mage back when she was a DFG assassin.

Neeko N DimeJan 2, 20173 votes

As an ahri main, I'd say she's actually been in a very good state of balance for a while now. Removing speed buff on q would hurt her a lot imo. Her whole kit is based around kite so not necessary really. She's not a burst mage like syndra Kat etc. more of a stick and move type.

LatetotheRaceJan 2, 20171 votes

"not a burst mage" Is she's a continuous mage than she shouldn't be able to kill anything in 1 burst right? It's more of a drawn out kiting fight. So why can she? Well since you apparently think that one of the 10 strongest champions is somehow in a "good" state, then you're going to step back for a second.

Let's say you don't get the movement speed from the Q. How will this effect your gameplay? How about your laning as a whole? Ganks? How about your build and build path?

There's a bit more to this than would initially meet the eye. Would this break Ahri? heheh, no. She wasn't struggling against other laners before the update, and with the addition of item 3285 and thunder lords, I doubt it would be an issue.

Neeko N DimeJan 2, 20174 votes

I think it would drastically remove her ability to lane early lvls. Vs some matchups the q speed is all u have to be able to dodge abilities for example: syndra. Orianna would zone her off the wave easily just off of the longer range she has. And forget about laning vs leblanc lol. Sometimes that q movespeed is all u have to be able to dodge a chain and not die. I mean im just saying my personal opinion on the matter and with over 400k mastery on her. But no it wouldnt break her but it'd be quite a nerf. I still honestly think she is in a very good state. Maybe not 100% balanced but when is the last time you've seen ahri banned in draft pick? Even annie has a higher banrate xd. It's actually a good thing when a champion is decent pickrate but low banrate. It's telling me that although she's a good pick, that people dont think she's so broken or unable to outplay to merit a ban.