What if we removed runes and masteries?

LatetotheRace·Apr 3, 2019·122 votes·22,021 views

Just for a patch in the PBE at least, WITH NO BUFF COMPENSATIONS...

Just to see how the champions themselves perform?

110 Comments

BigFBearApr 3, 201937 votes

Without runes etc. Game would be better. I am a minmaxer and always check rune builds and statistics but actually i don't really like that. I do it because I want to buff my chances to win but it's not fun. All this reading and comparing etc, it sucks. I just wanna play the fucking game and not a minigame outside of the real game called "rune manager". Every week another rune is the new "must have". Also I want to play vs the champions and not vs runes. But nowadays you play more vs runes like Conqueror instead vs the champions. Runes should give individualization but they don't. There is a cookie cutter build for every champion and it makes 0 sense to build something else. Every Assassin uses the same runes and every ADC and Mage. In some cases your have ONE other option "UUUUUHhhh!" So much difference!

Also removing runes would make the balancing aspect WAY easier! You just need to balance champs and items then. Would be a better game for sure.

SaveToTheADriveApr 3, 20196 votes

{quoted}

Also I want to play vs the champions and not vs runes. But nowadays you play more vs runes like Conqueror instead vs the champions.

As an ADC player, lethal tempo makes this exact case. I literally can't even trade with Ashe, Jinx, Kog, or Xayah unless I have an insane amount of burst with something like Lucian or I just flat out outrange them as Ez or Cait.

Doesn't matter who wins the game in the end to me, the fact that once LT starts to charge up means I have to disengage from the enemy unless we are 3v2 feels horrible, just because they picked a champ that can use the rune.

MorticianjohnApr 4, 20192 votes

{quoted}

Without runes etc. Game would be better. I am a minmaxer and always check rune builds and statistics but actually i don't really like that. I do it because I want to buff my chances to win but it's not fun. All this reading and comparing etc, it sucks. I just wanna play the fucking game and not a minigame outside of the real game called "rune manager". Every week another rune is the new "must have". Also I want to play vs the champions and not vs runes. But nowadays you play more vs runes like Conqueror instead vs the champions. Runes should give individualization but they don't. There is a cookie cutter build for every champion and it makes 0 sense to build something else. Every Assassin uses the same runes and every ADC and Mage. In some cases your have ONE other option "UUUUUHhhh!" So much difference!

Also removing runes would make the balancing aspect WAY easier! You just need to balance champs and items then. Would be a better game for sure.

I couldn't have said it better

Metal JannaApr 3, 201924 votes

How about a "No Runes" RGM? I have a feeling champs with no particularly good runes would end up busted strong due to the game being balanced around runes existing, but it could be fun.

Daddy AntsApr 3, 20197 votes

[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NttVPkqc,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-04-03T08:36:39.628+0000)

How about a "No Runes" RGM? I have a feeling champs with no particularly good runes would end up busted strong due to the game being balanced around runes existing, but it could be fun.

There was a game mode where you couldn't take runes/masteries.

Ascension I think it was.

hhaavviikkApr 3, 201916 votes

what if we revert runes reforged? old runes were more fun for customizing your page

OneMustFallApr 3, 201911 votes

My ideal scenario would be for them to go back to the old runes where you could pick your stats and then completely remove the mastery system. That way if you wanted to build extra offense/defense on your guy you can but you don't get this preloaded extra damage from hitting 3 attacks in a row or some bullshit.

NaalithApr 3, 20199 votes

I've been playing since season 1, runes and masteries are a garbage system. They seem like interesting choices until everyone minmaxes their character, then the characters' stats are adjusted to include runes. Basically, runes are just a part of champion kits after they are optimized for and usually cover weaknesses champions have. Imagine if Kayle couldn't play safe in lane with klepto or fleet. Imagine if mid assassins couldn't take extra burst to go from dealing lots of damage to killing you instantly.

MAY I LEADApr 3, 20197 votes

Umm. This would be interesting. But, it would be fairly safe to assume that late game, hyper scaling champions like Vayne, Caitlyn, Yasuo, Tryndamere, Master Yi, Diana, Ekko, and basically anyone else from the tank, Assassin, Skirmisher,and ADC categories would be completely unviable.

These champions get too much from the rune system to be viable without them.

JaspersApr 3, 201975 votes

Isn't this a sign of a problem with the game? Aren't runes and masteries meant to compliment a play style or the champ not make them viable?

I agree with the thread, remove them, see how it goes.

MAY I LEADApr 4, 20194 votes

You are correct. This is very much a problem.

Spicy RiceApr 4, 20192 votes

I don't think so, as keep in mind, since champs are designed with the rune system in mind, they are inherently tied to it. You can't just remove runes, see that champs don't work, and claim unbalanced, since they are balanced around runes and masteries.

If you banned all players over 6 ft from the NBA with no other changes, you can't be surprised when no one can land a dunk.

JaspersApr 4, 20192 votes

Nate Robinson.

The game of basketball doesn't give a player a bonus to make them better, it's just their natural ability that allows them to dunk, dribble, pass, shoot, whatever.

Champs are players, removing runes would(should) be like telling all players to play barefoot. This doesn't stop a good player from playing well, just their ability to do it efficiently.

The idea of removing runes making some champs completely unviable shows something isn't right, it means not only are champs too dependent on them but they may offer more than they should. Only way to find out how or why is to remove runes and just observe to see how they get on.

LatetotheRaceApr 3, 20192 votes

Most of those champions abuse free damage (in many cases true damage from conqueror) as well as extra survivability from the runes. Whereas vayne and Yi would continue to be op due to item 3124 , I honestly don't think many if any of your mentioned champions would be too powerful. We might even see a resurgence of mages against ekko and diana. Syndra Ahri Cassiopeia Taliyah Zyra Would have sufficient CC to fight these monsters again with an actual chance to survive the burst from assassins.

Spicy RiceApr 4, 20192 votes

Here's my question to you.

Why should mages be able to beat assassins? Especially considering that an assassins only job is to annihilate adcs or mages?

Not saying that mages shouldn't do damage, but that they shouldn't be able beat assassins without putting a lot of work in.

If you are able to spam aoe burst damage late game, you should be weaker than most early and mid.

KillerCryptidApr 3, 20197 votes

I've been saying this ever since the new runes came out they are just a problem, impossible to balance and add too much damage to the game if we removed them, players would have to rely more on actual champion strengths and itemisation, which in return would make the game less of a trainwreck to balance

demonicthomasApr 3, 20196 votes

BeCaUsE tHeN tHiS wOuLd Be JuSt AnOtHeR Dota2 cLoNe

CaveslothApr 3, 20194 votes

Kinda funny the posters name given that people proposed this right after Runes Reforged came out and it was clear it was going to be a shitshow.

Scottsc20Apr 4, 20194 votes

If this happened on the PBE, it would be a good way to test. If this ever hit live servers, I would literally never play again.

TheSingularityApr 4, 20192 votes

Hit live servers period? Or hit live servers after proving problematic?

If the first one why?

Scottsc20Apr 4, 20192 votes

The game would feel incredibly basic and boring and basically prevent you from trying a lot of new strategies.

LatetotheRaceApr 5, 20192 votes

When did you start playing? Reason I ask is because the old runes were almost entirely just little stat buffs. But it led to remarkable strategies because no one could just lock out 90% of your buildpaths because they took a specific rune. There were incredible options if you're thinking anything even slightly less than max meta, but even there the meta would often hand you several options because most champions didn't have every one of their weaknesses covered up.

True GarenApr 6, 20194 votes

Runes Reforged was a mistake.

Beacon AcademyApr 3, 20193 votes

I wouldn't have to deal with being electrocuted by Zed and his "Two" shurikens

LatetotheRaceApr 3, 20192 votes

Shh, it's a feature.

Spicy RiceApr 4, 20191 votes

too bad they are targeted and hit you no matter what you do...

oh wait

Beacon AcademyApr 4, 20192 votes

Dodging them 9/10 times will still chunk you.

Critmaster GarenApr 3, 20193 votes

i think thats a pretty shitty idea, and removed a lot of depth from the game.

i run vastly different runes with associated playstiles for my champion alone. pretty sure other people are doing the same. runes allow you to heavily lean into certain playstiles within the confines of your champion.

example Garen :

depending on matchup i will either run predator, grasp (into a bruiser build), or glacial augment. all three builds create entirely different playstiles.

predator is usually used when i want to roam around the map and make a lot of plays during the early game, then splitpush later, and is often supported by more aggressive and mobile itemization like and but also . the extra mobility allows me to quickly join skirmishes and react to enemy macro play, when im alone in a sidelane.
glacial augment is usually paired with and heavily teamfight oriented, with
grasp is just a general go to build to get lane presence and kill pressure in my own lane

the removal of runes would make you much more limited in your options. lanes would be more heavily counterpick oriented and decided in champ select, since you cant compensate getting counterpicked by evading into different stragegic niches than what your champion allows by default.

LatetotheRaceApr 4, 20193 votes

In most champion's cases you have only one truly viable rune build. You could always argue for the niche strats/diversity but the items themselves are more than enough depth.

Runes are insanely over bloated and often make or break champions and their match-ups which I would argue is strongly against the namesake and original intention of the runes.

VelasanApr 3, 20193 votes

Well, it would be an interesting experiment... but here's the thing, champions DO have runes and masteries and don't exist in a vacuum.

So, tanks have their stats balanced around the fact they have defensive stat boosts and ADC's around their ability to take runes that give them attack speed.

Sure you can take that away, and it might give some new insights into champions that don't need runes, but for the most part all you would be proving is champions like to have runes.

I like runes in general, I just don't think they well represent all champions equally. Some champions get everything they want and others just kind of take whatever is available to them that functions.

DaCurtisApr 4, 20193 votes

ITT: People who never had to supplement a champions weaknesses through runes and masteries.

LatetotheRaceApr 5, 20192 votes

I've been here since season 3 you've got no damn clue, these runes don't "supplement a champions weaknesses" they often just remove counterplay for some champions and grossly exacerbate champions already existing problems.

MasterDCloneApr 3, 20192 votes

what if we remove items as well maybe if we remove abilities as well maybe if we remove summoner spells as well maybe if we remove the map as well maybe if we remove positions as well

GlaricionApr 4, 20195 votes

{quoted}

what if we remove items as well maybe if we remove abilities as well maybe if we remove summoner spells as well maybe if we remove the map as well maybe if we remove positions as well

People in general hate rune and mastery systems.

When Blizzard tried implementing it into Heroes of the Storm they received a deluge of negative feedback. When people talk about Dawngate, it is one of the few things people ever even talk about.

Easy to see why: If cookie cutter, why isn't it already factored into the champion? If flexible, what if I need to adjust my build during the game? If they're weak enough that it doesn't matter, why is it in the game? If they're strong, you'll feel gimped for making the right play if the game plan changes.

DaCurtisApr 4, 20193 votes

People in general hate rune and mastery systems.

Citation needed.

GlaricionApr 4, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Citation needed.

outcry against the system being implemented in HotS alpha

Wrathful ChickenApr 4, 20192 votes

Then this would be DOTA2: balanced.

But seriously, what this essentially does is remove flexibility from champions, especially at level 1. It effectively isolates champions from a complex system that can potentially break them. This forces all balance changes to affect the champion alone and the only influence on flexibility is itemization, which is limited by gold income. (Which is pretty much the reason why DOTA 2 early game is farmville)

I'm certain the sheer isolation of complexity that runes gives would make champions balanced, but it obviously comes at the cost of flexibility. Another thing is that certain (dis)incentives that runes offer will be completely gone which would likely need to be replaced with even more complex kit synergy. (Which is pretty much what DOTA 2 is known for)

I'm certain that wonky builds won't go away, but they will come at the prerequisite of in game performance since these builds would be completely dependent on gold income.

Since you specifically stated no buff compensations, I'm certain that there will be an imbalance that causes champions with strong synergy to be superior. Synergy with abilities to make good combos. Synergy with items to scale better. Pretty much all kinds of synergy would be raised up while those that struggle due to weak synergy would falter. Those being champions that have good kits theoretically, but in practice, those premises never actually come in game to give them the good performance you'd expect.

To avoid this issue, I think it would be more fair to support the min-maxing ideology by forcing champion bonuses based on the lane role they are supposed to fulfill. Though to be honest, lane role might not even be necessary, I'm just thinking a unique bonus that can only be claimed by one player.

Like for example, each of the 5 players need to fill one of the 5 roles: Brute, Tank, Visionary, Apocalypse, Adept

Brute: Has a buff that gives a powerful start, but lets you last longer as the fight drags on. 15% damage boost that transitions to a 15% damage reduction boost that changes by -1% damage boost/+1% damage reduction per second over 15 seconds.
Tank: Incentivizes disruption with survivability. Starts with +100 health. Soft CC gives +5 armor/mr. Hard CC gives +20 armor/mr. Both stack within combat and refreshes while in combat.
Visionary: Rewards assists with utility. Assists reduce ward cooldown and death timer by 20% maximum cooldown.
Apocalypse: Promotes chain killing. Gives +5/10/20/40/80 armor/magic penetration on a chain kill i.e. 5 for single, 10 for double, 20 for triple, 40 for quadra, 80 for penta. Gives +4/16/64/256/1024 gold when the chain kill timer times out.
Adept: Guarantees safety with resourcefulness. Minions give twice the experience. Deal 20% more damage to epic monsters and structures.

Not the best example by any means, but the gist is that the players should have a purpose and should fulfill that purpose. Not exactly cookie cutter, but that's the point. Players should choose which role they want to fill, not which lane they want to go. I think a no rune/mastery system could be replaced with role based buffs. No multiple roles in a single game. All 5 roles must exist on the same team. All 5 players can only choose 1 of those roles.

dogownerjrApr 4, 20192 votes

This is such a simple and good idea tbh.

MordepoolApr 4, 20192 votes

We could better balance champions if we did.

Freeza with an IApr 4, 20192 votes

I think they should just add back pre-keystone Masteries and old Runes but make them free. It would've literally taken less work to just make runes free than to make a new system and refund people

LatetotheRaceApr 5, 20191 votes

This would also be an acceptable solution/test in my mind. It would really highlight who is actually just busted or not.

Freeza with an IApr 7, 20192 votes

{quoted}

This would also be an acceptable solution/test in my mind. It would really highlight who is actually just busted or not.

I couldn't say for sure, but the old runes and masteries didn't give MASSIVE DAMAGE or MASSIVE BONSUES every minute, it was just stats. Easier to balance that way.

Jennifer420Apr 3, 20191 votes

i remember when we had the old rune system i tried to play a game with an empty rune page... i messed up soooo many last hits cause i just wasnt used to the low damage.

also riot "nerfing" something without overbuffing something else? lol.

manolis201Apr 3, 20192 votes

{quoted}

i remember when we had the old rune system i tried to play a game with an empty rune page... i messed up soooo many last hits cause i just wasnt used to the low damage.

also riot "nerfing" something without overbuffing something else? lol.

The problem is you played with an empty rune page not all others duhh

emarythomp2Apr 4, 20191 votes

Runes and masteries? You mean just runes right?

True GarenApr 6, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Runes and masteries? You mean just runes right?

"Masteries Renamed"

Farm With JayceApr 4, 20191 votes

Game would be pretty boring, less unique playstyles, everyone would be playing the champion the same as everyone else. It'd make the game more balanced for sure, but the game would be less fun because you wouldnt be able to play your champion the way you wanted to

PhDs NutsApr 5, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=AORVAL JAYCE ADC,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=NttVPkqc,comment-id=002f,timestamp=2019-04-04T15:07:12.462+0000)

Game would be pretty boring, less unique playstyles, everyone would be playing the champion the same as everyone else. It'd make the game more balanced for sure, but the game would be less fun because you wouldnt be able to play your champion the way you wanted to

Then you're playing League of Runes. Champions felt more unique before the rune rework imo.

GayFluffyUnicornApr 5, 20192 votes

If at all champions with the new system are playing like everyone else.

Everyone who takes electrocute? Bursts really hard.

Klepto? Literally everyone just abuses it on range while bullying melees.

Conq? Everyone who has healing shenanigans and does sustained dmg.

Comet? Everyone who pokes.

Like tell me what playstyle is "unique" thanks to the new rune system? Can i take like comet on jax? Can i be a poke jax now?

All it does is amplify certain champions strengths to a point where the only difference is is how broken the champ is compared to the rest to say whoever abuses current rune x the best is viable.

Best example? See conq. BEfore, conq could be used by every melee who needed it to deal with tanks.

Now? Everyone with healing shenanigans can take it and the best users are currently changing patch by patch depending on who is more op with it.

Farm With JayceApr 6, 20193 votes

I was personally talking about the old runes. Todays runes people just take the best runes for their champion and the runes are pretty basic. Like flat ad, as, or ap, you're a ryze, which one you gonna pick? Its pretty basic and boring. But with the old runes, Jayce for instance had many playstyles to choose from. You could be 24 lethality runes with Stormraiders and be able to assassinate the adc very well. You could go half lethality and half ad, to be able to do more damage to minions and poke while having the lethality for late game. You could go all ad runes and just be a major poke champ in the top lane going for kills. Then you had the option of going crit jayce, lethality jayce, bruiser jayce, normie jayce. Along with the choice of going DFT, Fervor, Storm Raiders, Grasp of the Undying, and Warlords. Today Jayce players have two options, either go Electrocute or go Aery, everything else is just a worse version.