Via outplay and skill, not spamming a mobility item that breaks my kit >.>
We wanted another ap/armor item not... this.... thing
EDIT: Can't wait for the abuse on 
I hope you didn't intend on killing these guys.
Thresh Outta Fux70 votesAnd it's not like our lovely AP assassin friends won't be abusing a 300-unit dash in conjunction with their disgustingly overloaded kits.
Penns11 votesThis item seems more like a "counter" to these champs than something I would build on them tbh..
Erockandroll24 votes[{quoted}](name=Rentable Player,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=32MZhooT,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-04-12T15:11:28.082+0000)
And it's not like our lovely AP assassin friends won't be abusing a 300-unit dash in conjunction with their disgustingly overloaded kits.
The comment Riot made was that it may just be overkill on high mobility assassins. My concern is the HP that comes with it.
We all know that everyone hate's Bruiser Ekko right now. (Thanks to his high base and tank itemization) And while Riot is trying to correct that problem offering even more hybrid itemization will empower those Bruiser builds from champs like Ekko and Fizz.
If we do add such items to the game, we may have to accept the presence of AP Bruisers as a whole.
Serika Zero6 votesI have a small question about overkill. Does fizz, Leblank and ekko take flash? I hope the "overkill" irony is visible enough.
3TWarrior4 votespretty much...as assassins, they are actually geared for use with every summoner spell, whether it's the need for an assured kill....an assured escape or just the ability to beat their opponent in lane...
they go well with flash/tp, flash/ignite, flash/barrier, flash/exhaust, flash/heal(not optimal but it does give move speed on top of a decent heal), flash/ghost(talon is quite guilty of this one), and pretty much everything except smite unless they think they will be behind for creeps
RiotMeddler41 votesHextech Protobelt's an experiment on our part to see whether we can offer a trade off of raw combat power (stats on other items) versus windowed mobility (the active on the belt, which contrasts with the always on movement speed other AP mobility items offer). What we're hoping to find is a sweet spot where the belt's of use to some champions regularly and other champs occasionally, but requires you give up noticeable combat power for the dash. It should feel like something you pay a price for if you're willing, not something many champs just get for free.
We'll be adding in some form of brief cast disable while using until just after using the belt (cast delay or self silence) in order to avoid it only being used as part of an instant burst combo (concern being that that case otherwise dominates any other possible use). Despite that, and the stats trade off, it's also possible we still won't see the desired sort of play with the belt, with it either only being used it unhealthy cases or being mandatory on too many AP despite the costs. Our current thinking is that we'll just remove the item sometime a few patches post launch if that's the case. We're looking to make our items more distinct and less 'stat stick' though, hence the desire to try deliberate experiments like this that do have some significant known risk to them.
metaworldpeace1019 votesUse it as an experiment then, but don't release to live servers if you know its going to fail. I don't want to have to wait 2-3 patches for this disgusting item to be out and being abused by the champions that we know will abuse the item.
RiotMeddler34 votesIf we knew it was going to fail we wouldn't put it on the PBE, let alone the live servers. There's certainly a risk it's a problem we have to remove, we believe there's a good chance it works out or at the very least teaches us something useful though. There are definitely a lot of possible problem cases that can be described on paper, as with Duskblade though we believe that a lot of things that initially appear problematic can potentially be addressed in game though.
Jesus is Savior10 votesIf we knew it was going to fail we wouldn't put it on the PBE, let alone the live servers. There's certainly a risk it's a problem we have to remove, we believe there's a good chance it works out or at the very least teaches us something useful though. There are definitely a lot of possible problem cases that can be described on paper, as with Duskblade though we believe that a lot of things that initially appear problematic can potentially be addressed in game though.
Isn't there a HUGE risk of it making champions who already have mobility.... Completely ungankable?
It will be off cooldown every single time I manage to return to their lane, even if I camp it. They just press their mobility belt toward their turret and they're safe.
As a jungler who runs ignite/smite (not flash), I'm afraid this item could make the game completely unfun for me and make me quit the game.
Cosnirak3 votesIf it also makes them unable to kill anyone you can just ignore that lane and go gank elsewhere. I'm not sure I like the item or that it won't be a huge failure, but I can at least see how if it does what it's supposed to it isn't going to be an issue if say LeBlanc buys it, becomes ungankable (as if she wasn't already), but now she also can't kill anyone.
Jesus is Savior2 votesIf it also makes them unable to kill anyone you can just ignore that lane and go gank elsewhere. I'm not sure I like the item or that it won't be a huge failure, but I can at least see how if it does what it's supposed to it isn't going to be an issue if say LeBlanc buys it, becomes ungankable (as if she wasn't already), but now she also can't kill anyone.
It still gives tons of stats.
She'll do SLIGHTLY less damage. The trade-off? Safe farming and never dying. What does safe farming allow? More gold and items for killing people.
And then you can still sell the stupid thing once you reach 6 items and trade it for something else at 75% of the value you paid for it (if the game lasts that long).
Tis a nice day3 votesIn terms of offensive power, it's 2.5K gold for 60 AP. Quite a far-cry from all the other 120 AP items a leblanc could be getting.
RiotMeddler29 votesIt's only a 300 range dash, on a (currently) ~2.5k item. It's not going to be available that early in the game, and if rushed should leave the laner at a significant disadvantage in a straight up fight. Possible tuning levers include upping the cost, changing the build path or adjusting the stats to make if effectively not viable as a first major item as well. A situation where laners just don't feel gankable's certainly a terrible outcome, there are ways we should be able to address that if that's the major issue though (other champs don't feel ungankable because of the existence of QSS, Merc Treads, Wards, Ancient Talisman etc, all of which can be extremely effective against some forms of engage).
Draqone7 votesIt's only a 300 range dash, on a (currently) ~2.5k item. It's not going to be available that early in the game, and if rushed should leave the laner at a significant disadvantage in a straight up fight. Possible tuning levers include upping the cost, changing the build path or adjusting the stats to make if effectively not viable as a first major item as well. A situation where laners just don't feel gankable's certainly a terrible outcome, there are ways we should be able to address that if that's the major issue though (other champs don't feel ungankable because of the existence of QSS, Merc Treads, Wards, Ancient Talisman etc, all of which can be extremely effective against some forms of engage).
Can you explain to me why does this item need a double functionality as both a dash and a funky AoE damage ability?
It takes away from the items identity and just makes teamfights more confusing. It would be like giving AoE to QSS, Zhonya or any other actives...
RiotMeddler25 votesSure, few reasons:
So that if you're using it purely for the mobility (e.g. dashing back whenever threatened in lane) you're giving up some of the item's power to do so. We're looking at ways to reward aggressive, or at least interactive, play.
To add some additional depth to the belt's usage. Dash in a direction's fairly easy to optimize. Dash in a direction with directional damage that can be focused on one target, split across multiple or sacrificed entirely on the other hand has a lot more nuance to it.
As a way of binding it to its intended users. Putting some of the item's power budget into damage that scales with AP (from other sources primarily, given there's not that much on the belt) will hopefully allow a clear, solid bind towards champs that build a lot of AP, not equal value for anyone that wants the mobility and is ok with the stats.
DerZermetzelte10 votes3: Let me compare the item with Luden's Echo.
negative:
Luden's Echo is already a decent item to rush, if one wants to push it for early kills. Now for comparing those stats.
Now comparing the combat that involves activating HRB once, and Luden's once. A typical AP caster combo converts about 300% AP (I'm being generous here)
Luden's; player has a minimum of 100AP:
HRB; player has a minimum of 80AP:
So the direct comparison at this point is 300+ (100+30) = 430 against 240+ (145+75) = 460. And with every tiny extra piece of Ap, this difference grows. We didn't account for the extra hits for 15% yet
Assuming that the both opposing players built, Luden's on one side, and HRB+Boots on the other, the player with HRB now has an advantage in CDR, HP and damage, while taking a minor hit in MS. Obviously this scenario is highly convoluted. A slightly more realistic scenario would be, that both players first rush a manafixer, that for the sake of comparability will be the exact same item on both sides. But that also means that the HRB user profits more, due to additional AP that is converted by the AP scaling. I'm well aware that it's technically a skillshot, but please think about this: Who likes a combination of AP, tank-stats and mobility?. I'm thinking about: Fizz, Diana, Udyr, Ekko, Akali, Katarina. Basically everyone loves mobility, but there are a few noteworthy examples, like Ekko, Udyr and Fizz. Those that already manage to come up close to land an easy hit, but now get an extra tool to close gaps, become an annoyance to hit with skillshots and even get some more tankiness to survive that easier. meanwhile casters don't even look at the 300 range. The immobile ones can use it to some extent, I admit. But what about the active? Imo this part sucks balls for ranged casters. The projectiles can miss on long ranges, and using the mobility part defensively (when some annoying melee is already in your face), negates the damage entirely, because the blast doesn't fire in the opposite direction.
TLDR:
You're introducing a pretty good item here, that rather profits Assassins than casters, and I don't like it. I think the mechanic is interesting, but will either be broken good and then needs to be nerfed until everybody goes back to buying Luden's. And that's not the point when introducing a new item for more diversity. And please: before you nerf champions that somehow abuse that item to the fullest, consider removing it. Rito's history of jungle items and champion nerfs connected to it gave me serious ca... headaches.
Zok727 votesWhile you're commenting on the subject, any chance of trying an item that rewards not moving (or moving less). Maybe something that puts a zone on the ground (with a short channel to discourage use for or in response to assassination) which gives x% ap but which disappears if you move away from it or something else similar in this design space?
Zedex5 votesjust my opinion here, if it has poop combat stats how can you justify me buying it on Annie, for example? Sure, that mobility adds more threat to her bear and other point and click spells, but as soon as I build that I just let out a lot of ap and/or CDR from my build for..something flash does every 200+ seconds? The "rocket plays" aren't going to mean much if I still hit like a wet noodle.
And as far as building this mid to later game, you're again giving up precious stats for a niche dash. Other champions are just going to pick simple kits to outstat me, and no problems would have been addressed. Personally, I think this hextech rocket belt is just a waste of resources, because theres no way its going to be released in a useful state. And if thats the case, you're going to run into the same problem you had with older, obsolete items that were removed/buffed due to lack of niche(zephyr, runaans, rageblade) which completely nullifies what you intended to do with this mage update anyways.
Please tell me this item isn't going to be shit, and if not, I certainly hope its not a must buy on everyone. You may as well of given everyone flash for free at that point, I just cannot see this item being good unless its overpowered statwise.
Penns24 votesJust curious, what exactly does another ap/armor item have to do with "outplay and skill"? A dash from an item does allow you to outplay people lol.
LatetotheRace11 votesIt gives more stats so that I can actually get my combos off without being erased.
The Yetii Rider11 votesIt gives more stats so that I can actually get my combos off without being erased.
Essentially what it lets you do is survive an assassin's full rotation, emphasizing the "stat check" role of assassins.
That doesn't solve the problem. It band aids it. Riot is looking to rework the entire assassin class soon. Just wait til then.
Echous8 votesSoon TM.
And frankly I'll take a bandaid right now it feels really bad when all see does is ulti W and Q and I'm dead as a mage, and if he got the jump I'm dead faster, assassins are supposed to burst, I get that. But they don't need to be able to burst ALL of my health while I get zero counter play or item survivability options.
Penns19 votesWell assassins kind of are supposed to counter immobile mages anyway.
LatetotheRace40 votesCounter should never mean you can do nothing. It should make things difficult yes, but not impossible.
Penns19 votesIts not impossible tho..
doombotMECHA14 votesit IS tho. if a zed decides that ur gonna die as victor, ur gonna die. assassins have so many defensive mechanics and mages have perxactly none.
Jorencice11 votesDrop W on top your self before he appears. Press zhonyas.
Dead zed.
If your worried about early game before zhonyas take exhaust instead of ignite.
Zed WILL NOT be able to do enough damage before your stun goes off. So he either runs away or dies while stunned.
Masala Chai14 votesBut then Zed goes back to his original shadow, making Gravity Field completely useless.
Jorencice27 votesThen you win the trade.
You used a 15 second cd to stop a 60 second cd.
Melledoneus7 votesI wish. A decent Zed will throw out a W and back away, bursting you down from a distance. Given he has enough AD to pull it off.
Jorencice6 votesI wouldn't call his W burst... it's like 200 damage. And if he's in w range he's in laser range.
Melledoneus11 votesHis W doesn't deal damage, the shurikens and E do...
Starcraft243ver11 votesThen he has no ult, can't pressure you and you can farm safely and harass him. Zed is now sad because he HAD to crush his lane and snowball, and now he is down to protecting his tower, can't roam, and a farmed up viktor is going to be really more valuable in teamfight than a farmed up zed.
Not every champions are designed to shine at the same time of the game, nor at the same roles. If you are good at killing people, you may not be good at escaping/killing tower/providing CC/utility or teamfighting.
Just choose the champion that fits your playstyle instead of wanting your champ to fullfill all roles in the game with a great success.
Vistha Kai15 votesLet's assess the situation.
Zed jumps on Viktor. Viktors uses Gravity Field on himself and casts Zhonya. Zed puts his Living Shadow on top of Viktor and t'ports back to his Death Mark shadow. Viktor gets out of Zhonya with his only CC gone. Zed t'ports back to his Living Shadow and continues whacking on Viktor.
As they say, not everything is black and white.
The Hexmage10 votesW is really easy to dodge as an assassin, and by the time you bought 
he would be ulting the ADC, not you, making it not worth to buy.
Vistha Kai13 votesIn other words, by the time you bought Zhonya, Zed already killed you 3 times.
Auryiel9 votesIt's close to impossible if the two players are of very similar skill
Take 
vs 
for example
ALL the outplay potential is on Zed. Brand's only chance to do anything is if Zed fucks up. The Brand player has literally zero agency over this fight.
WalkingInACircle5 votesNot really, its ADCs they directly counter. Mages vs assassins is burst vs burst, one with utility one with mobility.
Quepha18 votesHow does an armor item that simply makes you take less damage qualify as outplay and skill, but a mobility tool that allows you to dodge a skillshot or reposition to an advantageous area does not? Is searching in the shop and hitting the 'buy' button really difficult for you?
Pyrobolser9 votesAn item that makes you take less damage, gives you the opportunity to play around the high burst high mobility kit of an assassin and punish them with a well aimed skillshot or spell combo. It is sad that you need defensive items as a damage dealer, but the meta assassin/tank is like that.
Quepha17 votesAn item that makes you take less damage, gives you the opportunity to play around the high burst high mobility kit of an assassin and punish them with a well aimed skillshot or spell combo. It is sad that you need defensive items as a damage dealer, but the meta assassin/tank is like that.
That's not winning through skill, that's winning because you have bigger numbers than the opponent.
Jasiwel8 votesIt's funny because during Season 3, assassins were extremely powerful, but YOU COULD OUTPLAY THEM. There was a clear, concise "If Talon jumps on me, I use Gravity Field ON MYSELF as Viktor" and that opened up either a "Nuke him to death" or poke him to half his HP. This was back when Talon had a Silence too, Viktor had to choose one Hexcore out of 3, and Viktor in general was known for requiring high mechanical skill. I COULD OUTPLAY SOMEONE and IT FELT GOOD when I did. I started playing against high ELO players regularly in Normals as a result (which prompted me to ignore Ranked).
Now I feel like it's a lot harder to do that because the game's pacing, snowballing, and scaling has drastically improved for assassins. Viktor has also seen nerf after nerf, which speaks volumes when I struggle to maintain proper CS as a mage, but the assassin laner can keep doing the same old shit they've always been doing. I'm not saying mages in general are doing poorly because that would ignore Lux/Brand/Malzahar/Viktor/Vel'Koz/Anivia that are/were extremely potent in their own rights this season (until nerfs, but w/e). I AM saying that Riot has given other classes quite the boost in power and capacity SOONER than mages - it's as if mages have been forced into being weak early, strong midgame, then completely limbo at the endgame when anyone can kill you with base damage alone.
The Voids Call7 votesBasically these trade-offs are fine, for the rework, but until they nerf the shit out of assassins, any trade offs made by mages will simply be a nerf to mages.
But if they were to nerf assassins, then ADCs would be way to strong, so you'd either have to buff tanks or nerf ADCs. Then once you nerf ADCs, tanks would be far to strong, because let's be honest they aren't about to buff tanks. Then once you nerf the tanks so that they aren't so tanky, you've pretty much nerfed everyone (except for lee sin).
So the game gets slowed down, and different archetypes of champions actually have opportunities to outplay the archetypes which counter them. AND THAT'S THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. THE GAME IS JUST TO DAMN FAST NOW TO BALANCE.
CrazedPorcupine6 votesYou think the Hextech Rocketbelt is OP on LB, Ekko and Fizz? Try 
YossarianSensei6 votesYou already can
If you meant you want it to be 'easy' to outplay an Assassin as a mage then why the hell would anyone ever play an Assassin? Assassins sacrifice a lot in exchange for consistent killing power.
LatetotheRace3 votesTo play against an assassin as a mage successfully requires enormous skill. To play against a mage as an assassin successfully requires almost no skill.
Logically though the champion which requires more skill and better positioning, reading, and tacticianing should have a bit of an edge over their facerolling counterpart.
That aside, there needs to be better itemisation to help level the playing field and really make things even. "Let the best player (Not champion) win!"
YossarianSensei7 votesNo that definitely should not be the case. The game is designed so that certain strategies counter others, not just pure mechanics. The strategy portion is what separates LoL and 3rd person Call of Duty
Assassins counter carries, so it makes sense that it should be WAY easier for an Assassin to beat a Mage than the other way around.
However in a team fight situation, Mages have far higher value than Assassins assuming your team has half a brain, to the point where most people would consider it a very worth it to trade an Assassin for a mage in a fight.
Ralanr5 votesWouldn't more AP Armor items just make Tanks with AP scalings (which outside of 
and 
(who both still have some AP scalings but can scale off of AD) is pretty much every tank) more powerful?
would get to build two of his primary stats without too much sacrifice. Same with 
.
Now obviously they don't do this with and for good reason. The active on hourglass is terrible for a tank. But more Armor AP items wouldn't have such a passive, and these other passives might be very useful on tanks.
And everyone is hating tanks right now (to my dismay).
KETSU04 votesjust bring back mana pots, literally the whole sole reason why is supposedly trash by some mage players. Before they could rush zhonyas against zed then spam mana pots to sustain till they get mana item. it's not zeds fault that riot made mages' "counter zed regardless of his lead" item less effective and have punishing returns for buying it.
theonlyaustin4 votes 
[slayer-jinx-unamused]