Why exactly was Maokai reworked just to be replaced by Galio who literally is another generalist?

Blåbæret·Jun 14, 2017·114 votes·4,430 views

These reworks are starting to make less and less sense. At this point I've just stopped taking Rito seriously.

And yeah, Galio needs more nerfs.

121 Comments

SteelflameJun 15, 201773 votes

Honestly, I think the only reason Galio is a generalist atm is because he isn't balanced properly.

He's supposed to be an anti-mage tank, but his base values are strong enough that he doesn't have to invest in MR for his MR ratios and as such can just depend on the base kit for his magic reduction while stacking armor to anti-AD.

Bladerunner7777Jun 15, 20175 votes

I think that's stupid though

Fuk Dota, why do some champions exist just to counter another class of champions? The best part of League is that you can pick any 1 character you like and have the option to primarily play them for the majority of your games without hindering your team

Chembaron YamadaJun 15, 201723 votes

Creating champs who are more effective against specific enemy team comps is not new for Riot.

Graves Remember his rework? He was supposed to be the bot lane marksman you pick if you are lacking a proper front line to protect you while the enemy has alot of divers and/or assassins. They want to jump in your face? Punish them for it then.

Rammus Has always been the anti-AD tank, being the counterpart of Galio as the anti-AP tank. I doubt they will change it with his VGU, they probably embrace it by giving him the newly introduced AD shield.

Kassadin Has always been the anti-mage assassin.

And if we have alot of specialists to apply a specific type of damage, why shouldn't we have a few specialists to tank a specific type of damage? From a design philosophy, it makes sense for me.

DeerGreenwoodJun 15, 201726 votes

Remember when Veigar was the anti-mage mage??? That sh** was crazy.

Chembaron YamadaJun 15, 201714 votes

There is a difference between his case and the others I mentioned, though.

Rammus for example is the anti-AD tank. Because he benefits alot from the stat armor and his kit is countering auto attackers. But, if someone accomplishs to shut him down and starve him from gold, he doesn't really can pull that strength. Because he needs the gold to buy his armor to scale.

Veigar on the other hand was scaling with enemy stats (it was mana if I remember correctly?). Meaning that if he got fed, he was naturally strong like any other champ. But even if you gold starved him, he was scaling with his enemies success, since his damage increased with the stats they were buying with their gold advantage.

Rammus scaling is healthy for the game, Veigars old scaling in my opinion wasn't.

DeerGreenwoodJun 15, 201726 votes

Veigar's ult scaled with enemy ap, not mana :) Also, I wasn't trying to argue, just wanted to add another anti- whatever.

JunkοJun 15, 20175 votes

It originally actually scaled with 25% of their mana(on kills refunded it to Veigar), while his passive stole 20% of nearby enemies AP (max 5 per level).

Beacon AcademyJun 15, 20174 votes

Was 120% Veigar AP + 80% Enemy AP Scaling

Edit: No wait... it was reduced to 100% Veigar AP prior to the Ult change.

NAY WrecksauceJun 15, 20171 votes

lets see....lets say a ap mage mid built abyssal(old one)........how much work would that do mid-late game if you had 300-900 ap against veigar with 1k ap??????

Beacon AcademyJun 15, 20174 votes

Depends on items. item 3157 for example fucks his ult

Trias000Jun 16, 20171 votes

I've always felt like you'd need godlike reflexes to block Veigar's ult with Zhonya.

Beacon AcademyJun 16, 20171 votes

Say again?

Trias000Jun 17, 20171 votes

I've always felt like you'd need godlike reflexes to block Veigar's ult with Zhonya.

Beacon AcademyJun 17, 20172 votes

aight. Understand all.

iamthegoatofwarJun 15, 20172 votes

I was fine with veigar's old scaling on ult. It punishes people who don't know how to build MR

EedatJun 15, 20174 votes

No his old scaling were a God awful design. It made it impossible to get ahead because you had to dump gold into MR to deal with your 0/3 lane opponent because he scaled off your lead. What an awful mechanic.

iamthegoatofwarJun 15, 20173 votes

When you guys can give me a good excuse as to why %max hp true damage still exists perhaps I'll care about something like that.

RalanrJun 15, 20171 votes

Mundo and regular health stacking.

iamthegoatofwarJun 15, 20171 votes

But they're being punished for building a stat?

RalanrJun 15, 20172 votes

Yeah. Same premise behind lord Doms and thornmail.

GaliöJun 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Creating champs who are more effective against specific enemy team comps is not new for Riot.

Remember his rework? He was supposed to be the bot lane marksman you pick if you are lacking a proper front line to protect you while the enemy has alot of divers and/or assassins. They want to jump in your face? Punish them for it then.

Has always been the anti-AD tank, being the counterpart of Galio as the anti-AP tank. I doubt they will change it with his VGU, they probably embrace it by giving him the newly introduced AD shield.

Has always been the anti-mage assassin.

And if we have alot of specialists to apply a specific type of damage, why shouldn't we have a few specialists to tank a specific type of damage? From a design philosophy, it makes sense for me.

Not only that but kassadins passive is like half of Galios w towards magic.. all the time.. for no cost :)

NineTailedMysticJun 15, 20173 votes

Galio also gets a refreshing Magic Shield and more MR/Level

AuurunJun 15, 20174 votes

Counterpicking is just really shitty design. Your chances of winning should depend on your and your enemy's skill, not pick. The whole countering process should happen through items, cause we should be able to adapt in game, not before game. One of League's the biggest problem is this stupid rock-scissors-paper model regarding classes and individual champions.

AwesomeGuyDjJun 15, 20171 votes

Well, theres the fact building MR GIVES YOU CRAZY DAMAGE RESISTANCE ON W. Anti mage tank, oh he builds mr? But it gives you resistance to physical too!

xelakerJun 15, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Well, theres the fact building MR GIVES YOU CRAZY DAMAGE RESISTANCE ON W. Anti mage tank, oh he builds mr? But it gives you resistance to physical too!

well that's a bit situational though

AwesomeGuyDjJun 15, 20171 votes

thats honestly where most of his resistance comes from, atleast thats how it feels when i play him. You get it while charging and for 2 seconds afterwards.

ModCaptainMårvelousJun 15, 20172 votes

Comparative to the 20-something seconds of damage reduction Maokai had on his ult. Didn't even have to build MR for it. He just got it by pressing R.

If Galio's tuning wasn't so gross, he'd be worse into AD match-ups. That SHOULD be the counter. Unfortunately, atm, he's so strong that he can just piss on it.

SweedishGunnerJun 15, 20171 votes

Wasn't he envisioned as a mid laner though?

ModCaptainMårvelousJun 15, 20172 votes

Maokai or Galio?

Maokai no, his original role was meant to be a jungler. Galio yes. Hence why he's so anti-AP (As most midlaners were mages) and his ult is meant to be a roaming tool rather than the "teleport bot to ult"

Wind WhistlerJun 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Comparative to the 20-something seconds of damage reduction Maokai had on his ult. Didn't even have to build MR for it. He just got it by pressing R.

If Galio's tuning wasn't so gross, he'd be worse into AD match-ups. That SHOULD be the counter. Unfortunately, atm, he's so strong that he can just piss on it.

Old Galio pissed on AD matchups, too.

TeemodanegroJun 15, 20171 votes

Why did they give a anti mage a taunt then?

SteelflameJun 15, 20172 votes

Because he's had it since before the rework. The point being it's his primary CC and tool to even make an ADC look at him. He has wanted armor in the past, but that was just because one of his core engage strats was flat ult and hoping the 50% damage reduction on his ult with resistances (90 of each) granted by his W and such being enough to keep him alive.

AtanchanJun 15, 20173 votes

You can't cast spells during a taunt, and taunting someone who does all their damage through spells is going to make you take a lot less damage than someone who actually tries to kill people with their attacks.

It's a perfect fit, really.

RainbowIceeJun 15, 20172 votes

I think you got it backwards. I think that's his intended advantage for him to have to build little to no mr and focus on other aspects. I don't think the idea was or even is to hinder him to be the "MR rammus"

PokladnicaZlaJun 15, 20172 votes

RITO should find a middle ground,where he cans till function against AD comps,but excel against AP ones.

Note,Galio should be especially good against AP champs,but that doesn't mean he should completely suck against AD ones. AD comps are his weakness and should remain one,but not to completely destroy him.

It's hard to explain what I mean.

SHORT AND EASY : Adjust him to specialize against AP-comps,but sill leave him manageable against AD.

DrinkMoreWhiskeyJun 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Honestly, I think the only reason Galio is a generalist atm is because he isn't balanced properly.

He's supposed to be an anti-mage tank, but his base values are strong enough that he doesn't have to invest in MR for his MR ratios and as such can just depend on the base kit for his magic reduction while stacking armor to anti-AD.

Screw values he gets to lane bully vs mages and then transitions to fantiastic team synergy.

Basically an anti-carry that scales teamfight wise.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 201712 votes

To answer your non-rhetorical question: Maokai was reworked to remove him from the LCS. Click, boom, done with that point.

Now, as for Galio. The only reason Galio is so strong is because he can farm much better than the average tank. Plenty of tanks have strong kits like Galio (Gnar especially comes to mind) but those tanks are balanced by having a hard time farming without dying and thus have less gold.

Galio's kit and his playerbase have always wanted him to exist in the mid lane as a mage tank, which is a cool idea. Problem is that if he's good, he can just go top and bully melee characters there. It's not really that different from Quinn, Vayne, Teemo or Kennen. Only difference is a tank is a lot more useful in team fights than a ranged harasser.

It's not a problem that's easy to solve. Making him worse at tanking isn't the solution, that removes him from the game entirely. Making his laning worse removes his ability to be played mid, which is an expectation everyone has of him.

He's a melee champion. Any nerf that targets his ability to farm will be twice as bad against a ranged character (like he's going to fight mid) but it has to be harder than you might push for a mid laner's wave clear to be nerfed because it has to be enough to impact his laning against other melee characters in top lane.

What the fuck can Riot do to solve this problem? It seems like it has no answer. So stop bitching,

DurzakaJun 15, 201715 votes

What the fuck can Riot do to solve this problem

They need to pick a side.

Do they want him to actually mid lane, or do they want to push him to top lane?

Do they want him to be an overall tank, or an MR/Magic damage tank?

They are going to upset someone. Stop trying to halfass it and make a commitment to what they want him to be.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20173 votes

They want him to be a midlane, overall tank.

So how do they nerf him for top without making him trash in mid? I explained how that won't work. If you nerf his bases and increase his ratios it makes him have to go into melee range to last hit a lot more often in the early game, and he'll just get bullied out and killed by ranged champs in mid.

SpecterVonBarenJun 15, 20172 votes

Make it so he has more mechanics that make him a good pick against mages but a worse pick against fighters. There are not that many AP champions that go top so if he's more focused on his anti mage niche then he'll be picked in the mid lane more.

The Yetii RiderJun 15, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Make it so he has more mechanics that make him a good pick against mages but a worse pick against fighters. There are not that many AP champions that go top so if he's more focused on his anti mage niche then he'll be picked in the mid lane more.

What about Zed, Talon and Yasuo? Are you suggesting a tank should be made worse against assassins, the very class they're supposed to counter?

DurzakaJun 15, 201710 votes

Yes, if hes an anti-mage tank, then reason stands that AD assassins should be something he cant deal with.

The EcdysiastJun 15, 20176 votes

And unfortunately, the tank update completely deleted any ability to build against Black Cleaver in top lane. So your best option is to be the tank who can actually farm.

What's funny is that, now, Sunfire and Deadman's retain their cost but lost a ton of gold efficiency, even further nerfing the entire class.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 15, 20171 votes

item 3071 was nerfed hard :

his build path
nerf of his AD
nerf of shred

The EcdysiastJun 15, 20172 votes

It wasn't nerfed. It was adjusted towards its intended champions.

And the shred was nerfed 1%, not as an actual nerf but to make it only the same effectiveness vs. the new tank items. Otherwise it would've just been stronger.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 15, 20171 votes

BC lose 10 AD, and lose 6 %, without forgetting u build BC with this item 3067 now instead item 3133 . Btw new tank items give more armor than old.

So yeah BC user were nerfed.

The EcdysiastJun 17, 20171 votes

The loss of 6% shred was not a nerf. It was to prevent the increases in armor being a buff. 24% of 60 is the same as 30% of 50. I

Otherwise it would just shred through more armor than before with the added bonus that the enemy has even less health. Because new tank items give more armor, leaving it at 30% would've just been a straight buff to cleaver.

And 10 AD was replaced with 100 HP so that champions who weren't intended to buy the item would sacrifice just a little bit for buying it.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 17, 20172 votes

wtf are u saying its a plain nerf. U said this as if only tanks matter. BC shred not only tankitems. Btw they nerfed BC before tank update.

And 10 AD was replaced with 100 HP so that champions who weren't intended to buy the item would sacrifice just a little bit for buying it.

This isn't a little. Btw some users don't value hp so much and prefere AD over this : MonkeyKing Riven Fiora ...

The EcdysiastJun 17, 20171 votes

Again, it's not a plain nerf. It's an anti-tank item first and foremost, and was adjusted as such.

You listed three champions that fall into the list of champions Riot does not want buying this item. It's for juggernauts. So they switched around two stats to force these champions, and ADCs who were abusing it, to buy something else if they want more damage.