Gragas is such a disgusting champion

Blåbæret·Jul 23, 2017·108 votes·6,801 views

It's K guise. Rito says is a generalist and needs a rework. despite being meta since the dawn of light while having damage, CC, tankiness, mobility is not a generalist!

88 Comments

MarshbouyJul 24, 201748 votes

I think it was stonewall008 who said something like "Gragas has everything a tank could want, hard CC, soft CC, mobility, waveclear, % damage reduction, playmaking ult, and a self heal." He's right. Gragas is pretty crazy.

DanjengJul 24, 201711 votes

If you list out all the functions a champion can do, they will seem overloaded. Braum has hard CC, soft CC, mobility, % damage reduction, playmaking ult too.

MarshbouyJul 24, 201731 votes

It's not about them being OP because I listed everything their kit has. It's about them having everything a tank could want. Yeah braum has mobility but it's limited to jumping to allies. He doesn't have waveclear, his hard CC is harding to pull off than gragas', braum doesn't have waveclear, and braum doesn't have a self heal. Gragas' ult is much better at making picks than Braum's is and considerably better at peeling.

There are reasons why gragas was pick/ban in LCS for a long time.

General TherittJul 24, 20172 votes

Smart response, and you have to factor in that Gragas needs 0 synergies to be pulled off ideally where tons of other champions in botlane for initiation need proper synergies or for the players to be so in-sync that it doesn't matter of the pick, which is extremely rare. Braum synergizes extremely well with Lucian and that can easily be abused, where a synergy of Lucian and MissFortune would never work to its fullest potential.

It Hertz When IPJul 24, 20171 votes

Well yeah, sticking two ADCs in bot lane together rarely works well....

SH AzykanJul 24, 20176 votes

Ashe MissFortune or Kennen or Varus Ashe

are some combos that have merits though

RavoreJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

It's not about them being OP because I listed everything their kit has. It's about them having everything a tank could want. Yeah braum has mobility but it's limited to jumping to allies. He doesn't have waveclear, his hard CC is harding to pull off than gragas', braum doesn't have waveclear, and braum doesn't have a self heal. Gragas' ult is much better at making picks than Braum's is and considerably better at peeling.

There are reasons why gragas was pick/ban in LCS for a long time.

But braum is a support and braum has the best peel for an adc. They're two different champs that go to two different lanes. You can't use him as an example. Use someone like Maokai as an example who just got reworked and doesnt kinda the same thing as gragas since they cover the same field. Use someone like cho gath who can now jungle well. Stop being jaded

MarshbouyJul 25, 20171 votes

I didn't pull Braum out of my ass as an example. The first guy who responded to me did.

{quoted}

If you list out all the functions a champion can do, they will seem overloaded. Braum has hard CC, soft CC, mobility, % damage reduction, playmaking ult too.

BushidoBladeJul 24, 201710 votes

not to mention, damage. Gragas' W does %HP damage so even 1 point spent in that ability has relevance. his jungle clear time is pretty decent as well.

MLDzXnRRRJul 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you list out all the functions a champion can do, they will seem overloaded. Braum has hard CC, soft CC, mobility, % damage reduction, playmaking ult too.

Braum is pretty broken and they had to nerf him to the ground... I played him for some time and he was playable toplaner, because of his high bases.

CasterGilgameshJul 24, 20171 votes

thats not true.....they hardly nerfed him to the ground maybe a few base damage nerfs one on his autos one on his Q then they partially reverted the nerf on his Q because it was shit for how much mana it cost braum has been overall an OK balance wise Support unlike champions like Soraka Janna Sona that from day one got almost nothing but nerfs with very little compensation yet still get picked

MLDzXnRRRJul 25, 20171 votes

{quoted}

thats not true.....they hardly nerfed him to the ground maybe a few base damage nerfs one on his autos one on his Q then they partially reverted the nerf on his Q because it was shit for how much mana it cost braum has been overall an OK balance wise Support unlike champions like that from day one got almost nothing but nerfs with very little compensation yet still get picked

BS... go to lolwiki and click the patch history. You are talking complete nonsense. He was nerfed multiple times and one time got + 10 dmg on one ability after the nerfs, then it was nerfed again.

TurquoiseYoshiJul 24, 20175 votes

To be fair, the waveclear is almost nothing when building full tank (especially as the game goes on), basically every champion has a playmaking ult of some kind (with Gragas' being one that can actually fuck over your team sometimes), and his %damage reduction is lower than any other damage reduction ability in the game.

For Gragas, just listing what he has out doesn't really work. There's a big difference between the %damage reduction on Gragas and on Warwick. There's a big difference in the soft CC of Gragas and Nasus. There's a big difference in the healing of Gragas and Vladimir. He does a lot of things, but at the end of the day, his E and ult are where his actual power is. The rest is just a few extra stats and abilities to make him a viable jungler.

I'm not saying Gragas is bad, he's pretty strong right now. I'm just saying that his kit isn't too crazy, or at least not as crazy as you make it sound.

OyddAWqJ5rJul 24, 20179 votes

The real question to ask is what is his niche?

"...hard CC, soft CC, mobility, waveclear, % damage reduction, playmaking ult, and a self heal."

Ima go out on a limb and say he has none he's a Generalist.

AnhartaminJul 24, 20173 votes

[deleted]

MarshbouyJul 24, 20174 votes

When tanks are OP it's "just a few outliers" and it's the fault of the tank update. when 2 marksman are OP it's "every adc needs to be gutted"

it's sad really.

SwiftKitten88Jul 24, 201719 votes

Balance wise I'm not sure he is... but he certainly is VISUALLY...

OHminusJul 24, 201711 votes

WHAT DO YOU MEAN? THE MOST AESTHETICALLY PLEASING CHAMPS IN THE GAME ARE DrMundo Gragas Taric Urgot TahmKench

PRAISE THESE CHISELED, DASHING FIGURES. ALL DESERVE A STAR GUARDIAN SKIN!!!

FairyfleurJul 24, 201715 votes

Why is Taric in there? He's been beautiful before and after his rework.

MelledoneusJul 24, 20177 votes

He must have something against deep V-necks.

Bottom LanerJul 24, 20173 votes

It's clearly not deep enough

CatastropJul 24, 201714 votes

If Gragas has to get nerfs, I'd prefer they look at his Bodyslam's stupid ass hitbox. Maybe his mobility too, I find it ridiculous that this guy manages to keep up with me as a Ghostblading Talon.

MrryZJul 24, 20172 votes

He's not keeping up with you as a ghostblading talon unless you're either right next to him or he e flashes.

CatastropJul 24, 20172 votes

He had a Runic Echoes too, and he basically was like 2 flashes worth of distance behind me. Completely stalled out the ghostblade and then just caught up normally. I would show you the replay, however this was a while ago I think it's been deleted by now.

Its All SkillzzJul 24, 201713 votes

i dunno get why he is so fucking mobile when he is fat as shit makes no sense. fucking fat bastard is more mobile i think they should break his legs and make him ride around on a hover round slow as shit so he cant actually gank you from everywhere.

TheMoralSupportJul 24, 20172 votes

This actually made me laugh

KoKobotoJul 24, 201712 votes

Make it so he can't dash over walls like Galio and new Urgot.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 24, 20174 votes

a lot of champs have "terrain mobility" he isnt the only one...

KoKobotoJul 24, 20175 votes

Yeah nerf his ability to do so though.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 24, 20171 votes

that isnt what is making him strong ...

but ok

once again its like cutting off your nose to spite your face...

j4 can clear over terrain he is strong and meta both top and jungle wanna nerf his E Q combo?

kayn can go through fukin walls/terrain must nerf him

fiddle ult ? small flash over walls

lets talk global ults technically they can ult into any where and clear terrain to do so

riven can Q over walls

but lets focus on gragas right ?

KoKobotoJul 24, 20174 votes

It's excess power. He's the only "tank" that also plays well from range. Either nerf his range of his mobility, I say nerf his mobility.

ProtestantCaesarJul 24, 201711 votes

Okay, he's always been viable, but he hasn't always been meta. To be honest, that's really what we should be hoping every champion to be.

His playstyle is still really annoying.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 24, 20171 votes

right ... instead of trying to make viable champs bad via nerfs or whatever they need to look at the under preforming out of meta champs and balance those

ProtestantCaesarJul 24, 20171 votes

And that's difficult because the out of meta champions may be balanced and viable and just not meta. Sometimes.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJul 24, 20172 votes

heres a thing: i feel game balance got worst with the introduction of keystone masteries and the new mastery system... and now rito is about to do the thing with runes...

goodbye any form of balance

ive said all along runes/masteries need to go away... buff items/ champs to compensate and you have two less things to factor when balance of game comes into question

ProtestantCaesarJul 24, 20171 votes

You'll never have perfect balance until all champions are the same.

But which is a step towards that? Giving similar champions a more similar playstyle via keystones, or reinforcing each champion's individual style by removing the pre-game choices?

Runes and masteries have also sometimes been involved in broadening champions' playstyles via customization, and the new runes look to have lots of combinations, so I'm a fan.

I see your point, though. Thunderlord's Decree and Courage of the Colossus were very strong on release, and Warlord's Bloodlust has also been difficult to balance. There are reasons to be concerned about the new runes, but I'm optimistic about them.

zxinferxzJul 24, 20171 votes

A certain competitor to LoL has pretty damn good balance and I can safely assure you that not all its "champs" are the same. It has to do with giving each of them their own niche and usefulness, but you can't do that in League because you don't have access to all the champs, unlike said competitor, so you can't use each champ on its own niche if you don't even own them in the first place

How did the guy balance them? He just made everything overpowered, so if everyone's op, then nobody is

AnidanJul 25, 20172 votes

It's also a case of it actually choosing a side in the competitive vs. casual balancing line instead of trying to stand in the middle and as a result doing both subpar. DotA2 opted for competitive balance and so for competitive it is much better than League. The recent clip of ODPixel going rap god casting speed over a very hectic teamfight that lasted 2 minutes(!) is good evidence toward DotA being better in that regard, while also attesting to the quality of some of the DotA2 casters. The trade-off is that pubs can feel a bit restrictive for people because some heroes simply aren't good in unorganized environments, like Chen and Io--especially since the former requires a lot of practice. That's the price DotA2 players such as myself are willing to pay, though.

If I'm being honest though, it isn't just because Riot has this design philosophy where half of everyone is a generalist and niches are nerfed to oblivion, it's also the fact that no one is allowed to feel "unfair." The problem is that "unfair" quickly becomes a nebulous term when that's your main design point because whether or not something feels unfair tends to come down to personal opinion. What I might find unfair, you might not, and even if we both agree on something that's unfair we might not be able to convince, say, Big Lincoln or Malicious Metal that it's unfair, and vice versa, and so on (for example: I don't find Tryndamere's ult unfair; lazy, yes, but not unfair). It's a bad thing to base design off of, yet that's what Riot does. Pair that with the generalist designs of League, however, and you get what many DotA players deride League of, wherein if no one is allowed to be "unfair" and many people are generalists with a lot of tools in their bag then it simply comes down to numbers to decide who to pick.

SohleksJul 24, 20179 votes

Absolutely. Guy needs an intervention.

ZapMyHeartJul 24, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Absolutely. Guy needs an intervention.

Kayle Did someone say "Intervention"?

DanjengJul 24, 20178 votes

You have a point. But if we have a specialist, then there will also be complaints. For example, Rek'Sai was called a "knock-up bot" after nerfs. A champion should have multiple assets without being too dependent on a single ability.

101100111000Jul 24, 201725 votes

remove all the damage from a champion's kit until it's only viable as a tank

nerf champion's utility vision gimmick to make it less reliable

"Why are people calling Rek'Sai a knock-up bot?" :thinking:

Rek'Sai has multiple assets as a champion which were all gutted to the point where she was relegated to a knock-up bot. Ratios were nerfed, base damages were nerfed, cooldowns were nerfed, her tremor sense was nerfed, base stats were nerfed, and even the radius of the knock-up was nerfed.

Specialists won't have complaints until every other facet of their design is left in the gutter because of shitty balancing decisions.

AbyssphereJul 24, 20171 votes

Jumping to extremes is never useful. There are tons of specialists in the game who aren't so specialised as to be adequately described as an "X bot". There is a difference between having multiple assets and every asset.

JarPoop IVJul 24, 20175 votes

And then there is j4 and renekton

SteelMankindJul 24, 20175 votes

Was playing against Gragas the other day as Yorick. Got destroyed.

A few games later, I found myself in the same matchup. "Ok, I thought. Gotta play carefully now - Gragas is a threat."

Scrapped it out a bit level 3 and won the trade heavily, to the extent that he had to blow flash. Pushed out wave to turret, backed, bought a null magic mantle, and TP'd back to lane with a slight exp and gold advantage.

At level 6, I was a bit chunked (like at 65%) from his Qs, but I thpugjt to look for a wall on him so I could summon the Maiden and kill him. Got the wall, and then he just straight-up killed me from 65% health with his full combo. Pretty stupid.

Wukong AirlinesJul 24, 20174 votes

Pls.. that's a healthy example of how a full tank Gragas item 1409 item 3025 item 3065 item 3075 item 3193 item 3047 should be able to have it all [[engage, disengage, dash, knockup -> knockback, slow, displacement, unidentified hitbox, %max HP dmg]] and be able to 1shot you. Never question the balance team.

arc95Jul 24, 20172 votes

early game mage/ap assassin, late game super tank, CC on every ability(2 hard 2 soft), one of the more powerful ults in the game, consistent damage... honestly a few champs are like him(and pretty much all Juggernauts)

Arsenic SulfurJul 24, 20172 votes

Gragas was actually shit on release. So not since the dawn of light, but about maybe 2 months afterwards.

KloqdqJul 24, 20172 votes

Since his rework/update to make him a tank. He has pretty much stayed at the top of pro play for at least 1-2 years now.

gottrjrJul 24, 20172 votes

{quoted}

It's K guise. Rito says is a generalist and needs a rework. despite being meta since the dawn of light while having damage, CC, tankiness, mobility is not a generalist!

Here is the kicker, Mao is still a generalist. JG, Top, Support - he is good anywhere.