Riot nerfs Ekko's base damage so that he can't build tanky

YumaS2Astral·Jun 11, 2016·23 votes·2,214 views

They also nerfed and for the same reason, as many non-tank champs were abusing them (but Ekko was the main abuser).

Worried about how Ekko could become "gutted" with those changes, they buffed his AP ratios.

Now, all Ekko has to do is build a then full tank. And we are back to the same problem again.

Lets be honest, Ekko's kit will always work with a tank build. He just has too much utility to be build as a full AP assassin. Ekko is the main proof of how you shouldn't slap so much utility on a very mobile and sticky champion.

44 Comments

LadyRenlyJun 11, 201616 votes

the problem is that full ap glass cannon ekkos playstyle is trash. his kit requires you to get into the thick of things, you can't do that without tankiness.

APs playstyle is basically Q spam until they are low enough to dive, or if you get lucky enough to land a stun.

At least with tank, you can get in their face and beat on some brats with a baseball bat

Austin CovelloJun 11, 20166 votes

+1 for The Ramones Reference.

LeeerzeichenJun 11, 20162 votes

And all those delays. He has a delay on his q, w, r and even on his passive he has a delay because all his spells have delays. Ap ekko just don't has the time to wait for his spells to do damage. They should just remove the slow from his q + w and the delay of his q. Maybe even rework his w stun into stasis, fits his theme, hurts tank ekko and could help him to his his ultimate.

L0ve Is BlueJun 11, 20162 votes

Making his W a stasis would be probably one of the most useless thing ekko could have, it would even make him NOT want to get in his W.

The Q slow is there for the theme, the slow is supposed to be like the time in this zone goes on slower. The thing is Riot is so obsessed with uniqueness and originality that they let balance aside. A guy that control times and can blink, stop time in an area, rewind his own time and slow others time sounds cool on paper but makes an overloaded kit that can be nothing but opressive.

69982196_DELJun 11, 201614 votes

Ekko is a design problem, no balnce changes will do the work.

EWBS MithileshJun 11, 20161 votes

he's an ap melee assassin. he's supposed to do tons of damage.

69982196_DELJun 11, 20166 votes

The problem is not him doing a lot of damage. The problem is that as an assassin Ekko has too much utility (perma slows, bonus MS, an AoE stun and a safe button), as a tank he has to much mobility and free damage (pasive damage+executor damage) and in both rols he is too safe (most tanks have dive potential but lack escapes/disengage).

Hinagiku33Jun 11, 201616 votes

Because Katarina and Akali offer so much utility...

Seriously, there are 4 main strengths a champ can have: Damage, Utility, Mobility, and Tankiness.

Being good at some of these is supposed to mean being bad at the others. Assassins are supposed to have high Damage and Mobility but low Tankiness and Utility in exchange. Ekko does not make these sacrifices and can build Tankiness while still having adequate to high levels of the other three.

That's "Bad Design 101"

EWBS MithileshJun 11, 20161 votes

point well made that makes absolute sense when i look at ekko.

but thats the beauty of taking assassins and building them bruiser or tank because of their high mobility/damage kit

Poop JellyJun 11, 20161 votes

He should not be strong at all aspects like that. I'm all for alternative builds, but never had I achieved well-rounded aspects like Ekko's tank build. Like... If you're a mage and you build tank, your tankiness should be less than tank but damage higher than a support's level. It shouldn't be building tank you also maintain the damage of a mage, mobility like an assassin and high utility like a support.

Sire HippingtonJun 11, 20162 votes

thats simply not true. Tank ekko does no more damage than any other tank, his base damage are more on the low side actually, even more so with all the nerfs. The thing is that tank ekko has utillity and tankiness close to other tanks(still a bit less on both), but unlike them he has the mobillity of an assasin, which allows him to deliver his cc and damage on the right targets whil he's exeptionall hard to kill, cause he's tanky enough to survive a lockdown(unlike the assasin version) and after that can easily escape with his mobillity.

The main strength of tank ekko is his snowballing, as you can't escape him, you can't turn around on him if he's ahead, and you can't shut him because of his high mobillity+tanky built. Similar with tanky fizz, thoguh he has more damage and less utillity, but the combination of tankiness and slipperiness makes it hard to deal with him.

Again, compared to tanks like mao or Seju, the base damage of eklko and co is nothing exeptional, and compared to fighters like irelia or jax it's rather low, same for base tankiness. The main issue is how much safety the combination of tankiness and mobillity offers, and how hard it is to peel against them as landing a single hard cc, which would cause there assasin version to die, isn't nenough to stop them. Another issue with fizz and ekko is that the omprtant parts of their kits are hard to avoid, especially with a tank built.

Defensive mobillity is just very strong and frustraiting. If you look at all the champs that usually are complaint about: Lee, Fizz, Ekko, LB, Riven, Zed, Lucian, Ezreal, Kindret... they all have plenty of defensive mobillity.

THE RlVER KlNGJun 12, 20162 votes

One could add 'Range' to that list, otherwise it would seem mages only have damage whereas assassins have both damage and mobility. Well put!

TesliumJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

he's an ap melee assassin. he's supposed to do tons of damage.

Sure do a tons of damage, but not while being tanky. That's way over the top.

JRobin31Jun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Ekko is a design problem, no balnce changes will do the work.

RIOT just hasn't been willing to straight nerf Ekko. All the "nerfs" to Ekko buff his abilty power ratios. A common thread in Ekko discussion is his "overloaded" kit. It's fine to make a champion versatile enough to perform any role, but you have to limit his power accordingly when you do that. Ekko is like Lee Sin plus Kennen plus more. He has the mobility, AoE damage, AoE CC, single target CC, ranged harass, and percent missing health damage and what's more he heals according to damage dealt to him. He can kite, chase, set up the fight, initiate the fight, disengage the fight, brawl, poke, sustain, assassinate, waveclear, teleport back to lane, and hop over walls.

MrryZJun 11, 20161 votes

That's because right now AP Ekko isnt totally unbalanced. If they nerf his bases his ap build needs some compensation otherwise people will carry on building tank as that is his strongest build. And in each of the roles you mentioned above theres champions that can do it better. Ekko IS versatile sure, but he isn't incredibly strong in any which one.

MrryZJun 11, 20161 votes

What if they absolutely destroyed his bases and make most of, if not all, of his power come from AP? yeah he will still have a good amount of utility but realistically there are champions with better utility than him which could be picked.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 11, 20169 votes

Riot needs to rework ekko's W, an ASSASSIN should have NEVER had it in the first place.

The move itself is awesome but NOT for an ASSASSIn.

They rework it boom ekko loses 1 of his 40%+ slows

Boom ekko loses his heavy zoning and AoE stun tool

Boom since that move is MUCH more reliable/easier as a tank toland in the first place it fully hits tank ekko but assassin ekko can actually be given a move that synergizes more.

An assassin shouldn't have this much utility in the first place and I'm quite frankly ashamed that I didn't realize on ekko's release especially since I've been here before when stun eve was removed and silences were removed from assassins. The fact that they would give ekko his W counteracts their entire goal for removing stuns from eve and silences from assassins which would give their opponent no way of actually fighting back making unhealthy assassination patterns.

Sorry if I said something redundant in that statement but ekko's w needs a rework badly.

TesliumJun 11, 20161 votes

Yes, reworking his cancerous W is just the way to go. The reason why he can build tank and still do damage is for 2 reasons. 1) His passive allows him to stick into his target 2) His W passive does % HP damage. And that is like Illaoi w, which does % HP, but it is an active, not a passive. You know it is dominate ranked games when a champion builds tank and has % HP passive.

MrryZJun 11, 20161 votes

So what if you gate his percent health damage behind AP ratios? as in knock it's bases incredibly low and increase it's ap ratios proportionately not so he can get more percent damage but so it's equalled for building Ap?

TesliumJun 12, 20161 votes

I think the % HP passive needs to be completely removed from his kit. He can build item 3027 and then go full tank. Has the AP to do damage + tankiness, and then even more tankiness. His kit is so overloaded it is not even funny. Just think about it. Has 3 slows (4 with item 3025 ), biggest AOE stun in the game with legendary duration, a ''Oops, I fucked up button'', and the lowest cooldown gapcloser in the game with a dash built-in. You know that champion is going to be broken when he has such a overloaded kit.

MrryZJun 12, 20161 votes

I'm pretty sure that riot have said before that AP Ekko isn't in an unbalanced state (https://gyazo.com/ee071810a25567a0aa2a44be1cc0649a the 6.11 patch notes) as of now so as long as they can gut tank Ekko he should be in a fair state. The best ideas to balance Ekko are those which suggest gating his utility behind AP ratios such as his slows and/or his w passive.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 13, 20161 votes

Yea I also say ekko entirely isn't really unbalanced just really need the AoE stun field moved onto a non-assassin.

It's counter-productive to his assassination since it's unreliable when squishy, when you do land it it goes along the lines of stun eve/silences on assassins which riot expressed they disliked and as we can all see (which sadly wasn't emphasized on release) it enables tank ekko due to it synergizing more.

MrryZJun 13, 20161 votes

Ekko's W isn't counterproductive when he's squishy though... in fact that ability is, if anything, the reason he can be called an assassin as it allows him the element of surprise on an opponent and if he didn't have it he would just have two average damaging skills, one being a mobility spell, and his ult. He'd be more of an AP bruiser without his W.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 14, 20161 votes

That's WHY it's counter productive, it's forcing an ASSASSIN to wait for a tank-move when they have to normally twitch re-act.

And it's counter productive because it goes against riot's assassin philosophy they declared after removing stun eve and silences from assassins. It's a reliable AoE hard CC effect on a normal ability.

It's NEVER the reason he can be called an assassin it has to be removed entirely and put on a different role due to it becoming too unhealthy for an assassin to have so he can have a new skill to actually empower his assassin playstyle.

And if the move really empowered him to be an assassin it wouldn't be empowering his tank build so heavily btw.

Element of surprise is one thing but just like silences and stun eve(Basically reliable hard cc on a basic ability) an assassin shouldn't have them anymore especially an AoE one.

It's indisputable that it's the reason ekko goes out of control.

EcchiOtakuTMJun 13, 20161 votes

Actually I'm not trying to bash but I gotta fight you on something.

Ekko's W is 100% not cancerous if it was cancerous it would need to be removed from the game entirely, everyone including myself is just saying the obvious(which sadly wasn't spotted on release) ekko's W should NEVER be on an ASSASSIN but the ability itself is cool and works in league.

And it's not the % damage nor the shielding that's the issue it's the AoE hard CC which doubles as a zoning tool. Give that to ekko who already has 2+ reliable/low CD 40%+ slows was folly.

But the ability itself isn't cancerous at all just need it shifted onto a different champion role entirely.

Lady HammerlockJun 11, 20165 votes

The problem is,Ekko is so poorly designed

there is a reason why you don't slap AOE utility on a freaking assassin,not to mention his slows are just absurdly crippling simply with levels and ranks

DrDiagaJun 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The problem is,Ekko is so poorly designed

there is a reason why you don't slap AOE utility on a freaking assassin,not to mention his slows are just absurdly crippling simply with levels and ranks

When he builds tank he isn't an assassin.

Lady HammerlockJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

When he builds tank he isn't an assassin.

Facepalm* Ekko's intended design is an assassin,even if AP ekko was balanced Having a 1.75 second AOE stun the size of ZIleans stun.that gives an absolutely ridiculous shield is and will always be a poor design choice

DrDiagaJun 15, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Facepalm* Ekko's intended design is an assassin,even if AP ekko was balanced Having a 1.75 second AOE stun the size of ZIleans stun.that gives an absolutely ridiculous shield is and will always be a poor design choice

Putting facepalm doesn't make you right.

Ekko who builds tank can't fill the primary role of an assassin, quick deletion of a priority target. He can still beat one (especially when you stand in one spot and don't dodge his skills like people do) but his damage is far from assasin level. He needs time.

What his kit is designed as is slightly irellevent when it comes to how he is actually built. You could build LB full tank and she would likewise no longer be an assassin. That's the only point I'm making, I said nothing about his kit.

BoulderoxJun 13, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The problem is,Ekko is so poorly designed

there is a reason why you don't slap AOE utility on a freaking assassin,not to mention his slows are just absurdly crippling simply with levels and ranks

Actually I would argue the flipside, he was overdesigned, he was given everything and it's cousin. A slow and a ms steroid from aa's... A slow/stun on one ability. A DASH AND BLINK on the SAME button, and a heal/damage nuke and get out of jail free card ult...

The TableJun 11, 20163 votes

Ap ekko is a ton of fun, but his W should not exist, it prevents ap ekko from being viable due to the nature of the ability.

SpoofghoulJun 11, 20163 votes

Its not just ekko doing this fizz is another abuser

the problem lies in their %hp damage which imho should never be on an assassin

a more healthy approach would be a multiplyer as in an execute dealing up to 100% more damage with a certain ability depending on how low your opponents hp is

this ability would need ot have poor base damage but decent scaling, nothing to strong though because it can potentially double in damage because of the execute thing

this way you keep the effectiveness vs low health targets but also force the champion to build damage if it wants to have this effectiveness vs low hp targets

Mandang0Jun 11, 20162 votes

^This.

Riot needs to start making champs build damage if they want to deal damage.

MLDzXnRRRJun 11, 20162 votes

His damage as tank is actually pathetic unless you are 30 MR ADC/APC... But fighters are unplayable, because they have worse early and lategame than the ranged ADCs (Quinn top, Graves/Kindred - jg, any random ADC - bot was actually legit teamcomp ).

QuephaJun 11, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Now, all Ekko has to do is build a then full tank.

That "tank" Ekko build is down one tank item from the old build and still deals less damage than before the nerf.

MunchCrunchLunchJun 11, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That "tank" Ekko build is down one tank item from the old build and still deals less damage than before the nerf.

yeah tank ekko 3 months ago did more damage than a rod of ages ekko now. they nerfed him 3-4 times already. E damage down. ult damage down. Q damage down. and W damage down. every single ability. he lost a good 200 damage or so per rotation. also the ibg nerf.

TheOvermindJun 11, 20162 votes

Ap Ekko is never going to be viable as long as Morenthan half of his dmg lies in his escape tool. His ultimate .

UltîmaJun 11, 20162 votes

False. The main draw to tank Ekko right now is the fact he has access to % health damage in his kit. As long as this exists he can get away with building defense over AP. Can you think of another "dedicated" AP assassin with the same issue? Fizz Surprise, Fizz can also get away abusing tanky items because of the exact same mechanic. If both of these skills dealt flat damage scaling off of AP their tanky playstyle would be completely eliminated.

THE RlVER KlNGJun 12, 20161 votes

I mean, even without % damage he would still be built effectively tank due to the sheer stickiness and CC that he has. The % is a large factor, however.

Malix FarwinJun 11, 20161 votes

Until they make his abilities actually cost mana we will always have this problem.

ZedexJun 11, 20161 votes

Ekko is more popular then Lee Sin now, I doubt hes going anywhere soon

Sire HippingtonJun 11, 20161 votes

The issue is not only that he always works as tank with the utillity, which on it's own isn't really a bad thing, the issue is that he will always be infereior if built squishy(unlike for example fizz who will always be as good or better with a glasscannon built), because his kit needs him to stay in the fight for to long to be really effective, and his base survivabillity is to low. Yes, he can always use the panic button to get out, which is annoying, but it usually means he doesn't get anything relevant done, especially since so much of his damage is bound to useing the ult agressive rather than defensive. This causes ekko to always be more effective as a tank than he is as assasin, despite assasin beeing his intendet role, unless he recives bigger changes to his kit.