[{quoted}](name=MyNamesAmsToki ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9n1X9fv,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2015-06-13T01:25:55.245+0000)
What does your Elise build look like right now? How do you think that will change after this and the new jungle item is implemented.
When I say that she scales poorly with AP, it's mostly due to her only having her Spider form autos, her Qs and her human W to do damage and your highest ratio on that is .8 on a 12 second CD... on the ability you will level last. And those things do have their limitations; for instance, you only get .6 ratio on your autos if you use your Rappel, also on a high CD. In addition, you NEED to be at least a little tanky in the lategame, because you will be in melee form for most of your damage to connect.
I agree that a little AP, particularly in the early game is important for Elise's success (I usually buy an offensive item before finishing my jungle item). But you fall off regardless whether or not you stack AP and that's the problem. So you are more useful to your team if you can act as a pseudo tank/fighter to soak damage and catch and peel for your team. Of course you CAN snowball really hard and just take out targets quickly with High AP values, but that is dependent on snowballing and the enemy team being uncoordinated, and you will have nothing to fall back on.
Think of Elise as a fighter. She has to be in Melee form to make the most out of her damage. This means she has to be able to trade blows and come out on top. If she can do that by completely curb stomping her opponent because she's fed, that works and she can get by with building a Deathcap for all I care. But if she is otherwise evenly matched, the best thing she can do is build health and resistances so she can survive the sustained fight.
If the new item gave a little more AP as compensation for the Penetration I would lose from building another offensive item, I would definitely consider picking it up. Because I would be losing out on AP AND penetration buy buying the new item over what I would have in my other build. If I gained more AP that would scale better with the changes to come, it would be worth the buy. But I don't see myself buying an item that gives me 40 AP if I could have one that gives more AP and penetration which will help with the base damages as well. The spellblade effect isn't usefull enough in my eyes for someone like Elise who can clear the jungle quickly while keeping her mana and hp fairly high. Give it 20 more AP and I would buy it, but then I'm still going to build primarily defensive. Picking up maybe one more offensive item.
That's just the way I see it. I don't think the new item is strong enough (yet) to warrant buying it over Cinderhulk, and I don't see my build radically changing over these changes. I would think about incorporating a little more AP in the build as the heal you get from your AA's are a little better. But the new item doesn't help that cause as it doesn't give as much AP as my other options for offense. IF it gave more AP, it would be worth getting the item at the expense of some Penetration or some health as the HEALS would be better, but with its current values, the heal is NOT better and doesn't help with Elise's effective health, which needs to be above that of an enemy carry.
"What does your Elise build look like right now? How do you think that will change after this and the new jungle item is implemented." - To be frank I don't have an Elise build right now. I'd go for standard tanky magic pen if I were to play a game with her today but ... I hate that build, I don't think it works anymore. One of the reasons I started this thread was curiosity in what other people think should be built on her after these changes, so I'm very much unsure myself. I did a game on the PBE with her where I basically went like Runeglaive/Sorc Shoes/Deathcap/Zhonya's/Nashor's/Visage but that build mainly exists under the pretense that my goal for the game is splitpushing (not joking, I can't think of many tower pushers faster than AP Elise), dueling those who come to stop me and general objective control. Visage is the defensive item because it amplifies her sustain, but based on the game that's obviously a flexible choice and I feel like a more behind Elise would probably build Wit's End (or Abyssal, idk) rather than Nashor's, but again that's game-dependent.
The problem for me (with the changes) is that regarding teamfights, her biggest strength in spider form is Rappel. With Rappel and Zhonya's she can become a pseudo-Lissandra who can dive in, do her job and then spend the remainder of the fight untargetable, surviving through that alone. But with the new effect on Rappel, you cannot use that spell defensively without also cutting your damage (and healing) by a huge amount. So essentially if you want to team fight you need to build defensively enough so that you don't need Rappel to survive the fight's initial burst, but also you need enough AP so that you can sustain through the DPS you'll take in the fight and actually be a damage threat. So I would say AP with two defensive items is the thing to do there, probably with a preference towards MR because you do get 50 armor from Zhonya's already. Otherwise you're building to be a Cocoon/Neurotoxin bot late, in which case you may as well go for tanky magic pen.
Regarding this paragraph:
"Think of Elise as a fighter. She has to be in Melee form to make the most out of her damage. This means she has to be able to trade blows and come out on top. If she can do that by completely curb stomping her opponent because she's fed, that works and she can get by with building a Deathcap for all I care. But if she is otherwise evenly matched, the best thing she can do is build health and resistances so she can survive the sustained fight."
I actually do consider Elise to be a fighter, particularly when built AP. She plays like a melee ADC pretty much - a weird hybrid between assassin and bruiser. As with any fighter you need tools to survive but it shouldn't be ignored that Elise's offense AND defense both scale with her AP. I don't think AP Elise is best just for bursting people to death before they can even respond to you, I think it's best in sustained fights also. What you have to remember is that the new effect on her ult essentially amounts to "you get 50% lifesteal" and when you have defense that scales as strongly on your offense as that, you may as well itemise for it. Teamfight-wise you absolutely do need defensive items to survive the fight's initial burst, though. So unless you're spending the entire game splitpushing, you definitely need to put some serious gold into that. Thankfully Zhonya's gets you started on that, at least.
I do agree that the new AP jungle item is kinda sucky on her though. Her mana in the jungle is quite frankly among the best I've seen so the mana sustain is pointless and the Sheen effect isn't the most synergistic thing I've ever seen on her. Combined with the literal halving of the AP on Magus and the reduced CDR (imo not the most important thing ever on Elise but it's still nice) and Runeglaive kinda sucks. But I feel like I'd get more use out of it than Cinderhulk all the same. IMO Cinderhulk just doesn't provide enough defense unless you're investing very heavily into it.
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. On live I'd sub Abyssal in for Banner, it just doesn't work on the PBE right now.
