Can the balance team please start being more careful with their changes

Abyssphere··126 votes·4,886 views

It feels like every patch for the last few has had a new sub-40% win rate champion. We got Syndra not too long ago, Azir more recently and this patch we have Veigar, Zilean (yes, the man with one of the game's lowest win rates has actually dropped further) and Kassadin all pushing on 40%. Then you also get slightly less horrible but also noteworthy cases like AP Fizz being made so bad that AD Fizz replaced it, and Akali dropping to a 44% win rate AND being made super clunky to play rather than being given any meaningful changes.

It is so disheartening to see these (apparently) accidental guttings. How can the balance team get it so wrong, so many times in short succession? How can they not see "buffs" that come with more nerfs than actual improvements will not make a champion better to play? Why the mega-conservative approach to adding power?

The fallout is getting repetitive too. Every time this happens it's "It's possible we've undershot, we're looking at some changes for the next patch or the one after". People are left with unplayable mains for months on end (Syndra is STILL rocking a 44% win rate after two patches of rebuffing) waiting for the changes to come through. Azir will probably still suck after his buff, who knows when Kass and Zilean will even be touched again, and the Veigar ones will probably take months to come through anyway.

I really expect more guttings to come through on the PBE these days than actual balanced changes :/ Please start taking a more measured approach to nerfing, like you took with Jarvan and Janna (and throughout his entire life, Lee Sin). And when reworking, please do a bit more internal testing and listen to pre-release feedback more. It's not perfect - people would have had you buff Ahri after seeing her PBE changes, but problems really should have been expected with Veigar and Kassadin.

82 Comments

KaisadiIIa40 votes

Syndra is STILL rocking a 44% win rate after two patches of rebuffing

Syndra's base attack damage is higher than her Q's base damage. Maybe they were too far with the nerf.

Durfain21 votes

shhh don't spread it around, they'll nerf her base AD too!

MarhsallLee6714 votes

Or they'll just say something like, "We feel like Syndra already has enough damage on her basic attacks, so we're just going to disable her q ability altogether as it just adds unnecessary damage that is not fun to play against."

Rew71121 votes

I bet you, a week after Bard's release, they will nerf his speed, his stun, and his heal.

EL HAMSTERO5 votes

depends on how well he is selling. its all about the $$

SecretAgentHulk2 votes

Who buys a champ with money?

Pinker 102 votes

Apparently people without 40k ip lying around

Didn't know those people still existed

I envy them.

It must be nice to be able to buy a new champ every week or so

Me, i gotta wait 6 months between releases.

Not exactly an ip sink....

Sooko16 votes

{quoted} How can the balance team get it so wrong, so many times in short succession?

Veigar "You son of a... I'll make you suffer! Just stand still... and I've missed."

:C

Chespin20133 votes

i know the feels item 3070 Veigar item 3070

slippykitten15 votes

This issue is driving me away from the game fast. I do not want to be forced to play FOTM champs all the time because of the constant over nerfings. Nobody wants to go from feeling good about the champs they like to feeling like they are inherently harming their own team by picking them, its getting ridiculous.

Kitten of Evil8 votes

You should also be careful if you DO pick FOTM champions, since those often see nerfs. Your best bet is to get really good at a technically-viable but unexciting champion who will never be touched again (think Ashe Anivia Amumu Malphite and the like)

Thryale13 votes

you mean like veigar? That's one of the reasons I started to main him before they removed dfg. He was underplayed, and I loved his playstyle. He was under the radar, never to be touched... or so I thought...

BetterNerfRelly2 votes

This is almost like why I pick the M416 in every Battlefield game. ITs good not the BEST gun but its so decent at everything that I can play it knowing its never going to change and always be a fall back. Probably, why I play lux still.

krawkaw2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cksIXc6x,comment-id=00060000,timestamp=2015-02-27T18:58:22.744+0000)

You should also be careful if you DO pick FOTM champions, since those often see nerfs. Your best bet is to get really good at a technically-viable but unexciting champion who will never be touched again (think Ashe Anivia Amumu Malphite and the like)

Which is why my favorite champion Lux is perfect

lojician9 votes

There's a difference between "careless" and "not giving a shit unless you're mobile, ranged, and generally super flashy with particles flying everywhere".

j j8 votes

Anyone who read the patch notes knew they were nerfs right away. I really don't understand this balance team. Inb4 this is guild wars 1 all over again.

Fed by Snu Snu8 votes

Oh, look, Morello happens to be the guy who fucked up guild wars 1! Such a coincidence!

Morello and Ghostcrawler working together. I don't even want to know how corrupted the gaming industry is for these 2 peeps to still be employed and revered as high-end designers.

B1naryB0t8 votes

Don't worry, Kassadin will be revisited, Riot will say he needs to lose something for his unrivalled mobility, and so they'll bring his HP down to 12.

Zeke Maelstorm1 votes

Wait where did Riot say Kassadin has unrivaled mobility... because Le Blanc, Zed, Jarvin IV, Lee Sin, Kha'zik and Kalista all have relatively similar mobility, higher damage and lower resource costs (If any).

B1naryB0t1 votes

I don't really remember where specifically, but RIot said his mobility defines him.

Gorzke6 votes

I think Ghostcrawler has something to do with this... Does anyone remember how was WoW's balance with him, and compares it to how it is now? Now almost all classes hace a viable specialitation, back then there were useless ones in every patch,

MrBuffington7 votes

I personally do think it is somewhat related to Ghostcrawler, but I don't think it's so simple as "GC is here therefore balance sucks". GC works on larger game design, not smaller balance changes, but from where I'm standing it seems like he's kind of spearheading this 'counterplay' movement, which is really what's been shaking things up recently.

What I see happening is that Riot is starting to work through the back-log of problems that have built up over time (like the old and forgotten champions; this is the first update Veigar has had this season, and season 4 he only had two, one of which was just an updated splash art, the other was a base armor tweak), and in order to try to stay ahead of the problems that build up day to day, they are making more and more aggressive changes to try to expedite the balance process in the long run. Like, say champion A is oppressive: instead of cutting 5 damage from their Q, seeing how they respond, see that they're still oppressive, cutting 5 more damage, and so on, over like ten patches, they can just cut 30 damage right off the bat and assess, okay, was that too much? If so they add 10 back, if not, take 10 more away, and rinse and repeat.

Whether or not this is the best course of action is debatable (and in fact sort of the topic of this thread): on the plus side, it's theoretically objectively more time efficient, but on the negative side, as we're sort of experiencing, it sort of throws the game out of whack in the short term, and there's this community backlash because it's a balancing style that the playerbase is unaccustomed to

Fed by Snu Snu4 votes

they can just cut 30 damage right off the bat and assess, okay, was that too much? If so they add 10 to Ahri instead and call it a day.

Fixed that for you.

Also, I feel obligated to bring up Zed and how that philosophy you bring up didn't apply to him, so it obviously isn't the case as an actual guideline.

MrBuffington2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fed by Snu Snu,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=cksIXc6x,comment-id=000800000000,timestamp=2015-02-27T23:35:59.961+0000)

Also, I feel obligated to bring up Zed and how that philosophy you bring up didn't apply to him, so it obviously isn't the case as an actual guideline.

Or Lee Sin, or whoever else you want to complain about. You can feel free to cherry-pick whatever other examples you want; I'm concerned with what I see as a broad trend in their recent changes (in all seriousness though, Zed didn't have an inherent problem with his kit, most of the complaints arise from the fact that much of his competition in mid lane was blanket nerfed with the mana regen changes ))

Zeke Maelstorm4 votes

I dislike how counterplay seems to vary from champion to champion. For example Zed is considered to have 'counterplay' because Zhonya's Hourglass and Quicksilver Sash exist. However, nobody (From Riot) mentioned these items when they talked 'counterplay' and Viegar.

MrBuffington1 votes

Imo Zed is considered to have counterplay because it is possible to dodge his skills, besides his ultimate, and even his ultimate telegraphs a lot of information, like where he's going to be in a second and usually what he's trying to do (is he actually going for an assassination or is he just using it to juke? In the former case you know he's going to stick around for a second and try to get his damage down, in the latter case he's probably just going to shadow away). Itemization is only a small part of counterplay, imo.

Demonsolder211 votes

Well to be honest RIOT has always had this cycle of releasing said champion in a op state than hammering them into the ground.

Gorzke6 votes

But they didn't nerf champions for the sake of nerfing them. And they didn't call a "Compensation Buff" what really is a "Delete Champion".

TwoD6 votes

how can dumb self-serving biased old ass nerds be careful with what they do?

AquariusGine5 votes

WHO THE HELL IN ON THE BALANCE TEAM RIGHT NOW?

´DID THEY SUDDENLY HIRE A BUNCH OF INEXPERIENCED MONKEYS, WHERE IS THE OLD BALANCE TEAM

(No hate to Mr Stashu, but I keep hearing a lot of 'new' people are added to the balance team)

These silly guttings are getting ridiculous... arrogant idiots on the balance team, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE GAME

yellowbricks3 votes

{quoted}

WHO THE HELL IN ON THE BALANCE TEAM RIGHT NOW?

´DID THEY SUDDENLY HIRE A BUNCH OF INEXPERIENCED MONKEYS, WHERE IS THE OLD BALANCE TEAM

(No hate to Mr Stashu, but I keep hearing a lot of 'new' people are added to the balance team)

These silly guttings are getting ridiculous... arrogant idiots on the balance team, YOU ARE DESTROYING THE GAME

Stashu is also an inexperienced and arrogant monkey. His success in pacifying the masses with mere numbers buffs on the shittiest rework ever probably inspired the rest of the apes to do whatever.

SmokingPuffin5 votes

It's true. Balance team going ham on these nerfs. Never seen so many 40% win rate champs.

The Syndra story just kills me. How in the world did they think 5.2 was going to fix it? And then 5.4 looks like that hasn't fixed it either. This is the game design equivalent of a four-putt.

kcStranger4 votes

From what I can tell, Riot has a good handle on what they want to achieve with their changes--opening up more interesting play/counterplay possibilities, giving their champions unique identities, making you work to really snowball your champion. However, they kinda suck at actually doing it.

I actually made a post suggesting that they might want to hire pros or former pros (who would no longer play competitively after being hired) to help them understand the impact that their balance decisions will have. People didn't seem to like the idea...but clearly they need to hire someone who actually understands how to balance this stupid game. (It's ok to have some rotation in the top champions. But it feels so awful when a champion whom you've devoted many hours to mastering becomes effectively unplayable overnight.)

RanmanReborn4 votes

Fire all the worthless fucks and don't wait a minute longer.

Oleandervine3 votes

You kinda lost me at the point where you said Lee Sin has received meaningful balances for his entire existence, but other than that point, I agree.

Abyssphere25 votes

{quoted}

You kinda lost me at the point where you said Lee Sin has received meaningful balances for his entire existence, but other than that point, I agree.

I more meant that they've always been incredibly careful with Lee Sin when nerfing him, always taking away something JUST ABOUT worth taking away but never taking away like 5 different things at once. As frustrating as it is to see Lee Sin getting off the hook easily, it's better than seeing them go complete overkill on champ after champ after champ.

Kitten of Evil5 votes

I'd agree with that. There are some champs they seem to really keep the kid gloves on when they nerf (cough Zed, Lee Sin, even J4 all see very very minor nerfs)... then they go for a wholesale gutting on Azir.

IceKingChernobog11 votes

and they also gutted Olaf Twitch Veigar Sona Cassiopeia Fizz

Hawkefire3 votes

I disagree with you on Fizz. Have you ever seen the new Bruiser AD Fizz top lane build and just how nasty it is to play against? It is actually pretty insane the amount of damage that Fizz dishes out while not actually building much damage. And to top it off, he is incredibly tanky as well, so not only is he dishing out some fairly rediculous amounts of damage, he is very hard to kill on top of it (and with the invulnerability from his E, it just starts rocketing to ludicrous levels of unkillability).

Rrett3 votes

Fizz deserved it at least, everyone else didn't.

I just wish they gutted him sooner, not sure why they waited as long as they did.

SecretAgentHulk6 votes

What you talking about? I have 100% winrate with DJ Sona.

I realize this means nothing to the discussion. Carry on.

Silents4293 votes

I recall another thread over a week ago complaining about Syndra having a 33% winrate, I pointed out how it was rising, and according to this post it has reached 40%.

Now I am not saying these champions weren't "gutted" but obviously you should give these changes time, as people are applying old playstyles and setups to pre-patch versions.

Over time people will learn more efficient ways of using these champions and start winning more.

Again. Disclaimer, not saying they weren't over nerfed or whatever, but it hasn't even been a week since Kass and Veigar got changes and everyone is acting like they know how to balance using some pretty weak stats to "back them up"

My suggestion is give it a bit more time, watch how it goes, then make a well written idea on how you can improve said champion, Riot wants to fix these champions just as much as the people playing them, so just be helpful about it.

Ich Bin Lucian 3 votes

Yeah the nerf to Akali was crap and they didn't even compensate the nerf either. "Oh we know her Early game sucks and her teamfighting sucks if she is the ONLY threat .. but lets make it even harder .. " Legit

Baron Perenolde3 votes

I'd still wait before judging Zilean, honestly. People still need to adjust to his new kit.

Immortal Strife3 votes

Playing a carry position in LoL can be frustrating, in the midlane champions are routinely nerfed and rotated out...see Gragas and Fizz; and in the ADC role low tier marksman are left mediocre for long durations...see Miss Fortune and Ashe.

Acidic Puddle2 votes

They are not careless, however some people just don't change their playstlye around the patch. For example if Kass had always been at 450 range then nobody would be complaining. And if it actually took skill to hit syndra's stun then nobody would be complaining.

KaisadiIIa19 votes

And if it actually took skill to hit syndra's stun then nobody would be complaining.

You know, Syndra stun is bugged (admittedly by RIOT) and literally goes through their targets without stunning them, right? No, you don't know, you just talk about things you have no idea. You are just sticked to the "KASSA = FREE FLASH = GG OP" Who cares if he deals less damage than Nami. Who cares if Syndra's Q at level 1 (which was nerved too) deals less damage than her basic attacks. Meanwhile is perfectly ok that champions like Lee Sin have awkwardly high stats for no reason in every skill.

Minuano2 votes

Don't forget that they did the same thing to Yasuo before giving him slight buffs. It's ridiculous how much they are pummeling champs.

Rrett3 votes

Yas deserved it greatly. I wish they did it the same patch they released him.

He deserved a gut for over a year before they gutted him, and that was one year everyone hated him. I think he had a 45~ winrate and he still had the highest ban rate because everyone hated playing against him. Riot even acknowledged that something wasn't quite right because he just didn't fit the pattern of most people who had the highest ban rate.

1 year of everyone saying he had severe problems before the gut until they could figure out how to balance him. Really annoying.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

To be fair, if they're not careful, they end up with Ahri.

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