So the main features of the Cass rework are mana + health sustain on E

Abyssphere·May 15, 2015·53 votes·2,221 views

...and now both of those things are getting nerfed because Riot has finally realised what the playerbase realised long ago: they're atrocious mechanics that are horrendous to play against. At this point, what about the Cass rework CAN be dubbed a success? I can't see her being competitively viable after this so "she's viable in the LCS now!" won't be an argument anymore. Your "farm with Twin Fang" mini-game has been dubbed obnoxious to lane against, the passive still has a ton of haters with very few fans (neutral people at best - nobody was ever going to actively like "you become powerful after 30 minutes of doing not much") and Miasma and Noxious Blast remain pretty useless in the damage department.

I don't get how Riot can still claim this rework is working as intended and I don't understand why another rework isn't on the cards already. Can we please get at least some discussion on her? Because you've been silent on her for months (Stashu disappeared and seems to spend his time on Twitter talking about how he doesn't want her being good) and we have no idea what your current opinion on her kit is - healthy, unhealthy, working as intended, in need of changes, etc? At least tell us something.

50 Comments

A Miss FortuneMay 15, 201527 votes

She needs a rework to be a Poison Mage, not a limitless Machine Gun. Well, limited by mana because even with like 6 Seraph's you'll run out of mana pretty fast.

Cassiopeia pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew pew

NarasimhaMay 15, 20153 votes

The problem with a Poison Mage is that its pretty much damage impossible to find an even middle ground. Such designs tend to be based around dropping a lot of AoE damage. So either the damage has to be very low, and it ends up being a 'support' asset for others to build off of (DotA's Venomancer), or it has to be essentially single target with medium-to-low range. Neither of these seems particularly appealing for Cass.

Mind you, I'm not remotely defending the rework. It was basically a train wreck into an airplane crash into a landmine. But the old design of 'Fire-and-forget' wasn't very desirable either.

terkmcMay 16, 20153 votes

I mean Singed is a pretty well done Poison guy. Aoe, high damage spread out over time (shit have a .9 ap ratio), and ways to keep people in there. Hell I think Misama is an amazing ability thematic and mechanic wise if we are going poison mage route, just buff the number

Rinky DinkyMay 15, 201518 votes

All they did, (By their own words), was make a "toxic champion" into an even more "toxic champion".

"We don't want her to be a lane bully anymore. We don't like how oppressive she is in lane"

She is currently a lane bully who transitions into a hypercarry. Has free stats at no cost to her kit... its ridiculous.

And the sad part is, she was honestly not even half as annoying as they claimed. When people locked in old Cass, I never thought, "Oh damn here comes cass, and all I wanted to do was play league". No, the only champion who holds that spot is Leblanc atm. Perhaps Riven if I got counterpicked, but thats fair, I was counterpicked.

Cass's rework was a total failure. As predicted, she will be gutted and left to rot, because all they did was create a champion that is far too strong, and far too unhealthy.

Edit: I just read the dude's twitter feed. What a... rude dude for lack of better words. "lol my toxic champ rework is doing well at a tourny. thats enough! hahahahha thats really witty hahahahahahaah rekt nerfs inc"

Yeah dude, a champ being ridiculous tends to happen when you give them a rework that is so unhealthy and bad that the only way to make it work is to give it obnoxious stats, and built in power. But nah, that's never been a problem before riot. And even if it was, riot totally followed up immediately and fixed the champ in question right? Olaf Olaf Olaf

I think the thing that bothers me even more is that it was confirmed by this that Stashu is the only one who has say over cass. She can't be nerfed or buffed unless he gives clearance. Why. How is that a good idea.

I really do feel bad for you cass mains.

(Disclaimer) I enjoy olaf do not sodomize me please. This is in reference to his original gutting which left him useless for about 6 months.

hgjkdlsaf jeldvbMay 16, 20152 votes

nonono, poison, not toxic

LlaniteMay 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekr8Qqks,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-05-15T22:02:03.581+0000)

All they did, (By their own words), was make a "toxic champion" into an even more "toxic champion".

"We don't want her to be a lane bully anymore. We don't like how oppressive she is in lane"

She is currently a lane bully who transitions into a hypercarry. Has free stats at no cost to her kit... its ridiculous.

And the sad part is, she was honestly not even half as annoying as they claimed. When people locked in old Cass, I never thought, "Oh damn here comes cass, and all I wanted to do was play league". No, the only champion who holds that spot is atm. Perhaps if I got counterpicked, but thats fair, I was counterpicked.

Cass's rework was a total failure. As predicted, she will be gutted and left to rot, because all they did was create a champion that is far too strong, and far too unhealthy.

Edit: I just read the dude's twitter feed. What a... rude dude for lack of better words. "lol my toxic champ rework is doing well at a tourny. thats enough! hahahahha thats really witty hahahahahahaah rekt nerfs inc"

Yeah dude, a champ being ridiculous tends to happen when you give them a rework that is so unhealthy and bad that the only way to make it work is to give it obnoxious stats, and built in power. But nah, that's never been a problem before riot. And even if it was, riot totally followed up immediately and fixed the champ in question right?

I think the thing that bothers me even more is that it was confirmed by this that Stashu is the only one who has say over cass. She can't be nerfed or buffed unless he gives clearance. Why. How is that a good idea.

I really do feel bad for you cass mains.

(Disclaimer) I enjoy olaf do not sodomize me please. This is in reference to his original gutting which left him useless for about 6 months.

Which is pretty funny because all LB gets since 2012 are nerfs. And yet suddenly she becomes a symbol of favoritism.

Cass rework checklist: +Increased popularity? Checked +Stable win rate? Checked +Have a niche? Checked +Less frustrating to play against? Checked +Start getting picked by pros? Checked

Sound like a successful project to me.

AquariusGineMay 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Which is pretty funny because all LB gets since 2012 are nerfs. And yet suddenly she becomes a symbol of favoritism.

Cass rework checklist: +Increased popularity? Checked +Stable win rate? Checked +Have a niche? Checked +Less frustrating to play against? Checked +Start getting picked by pros? Checked

Sound like a successful project to me.

Leblanc didn't just get nerfs, she got buffs to her W and Passive as well, thereby increasing her mobility and evasiveness. She got slightly compensated

The Cassiopeia nerfs on PBE are VERY detrimental, and she WILL be too weak to make it to lategame. Some of us have played her enough times to know that.

If they just left her as she is.. everything you said is true. And if they shifted her power else where, we wouldn't be having this thread.

101100111000May 16, 20159 votes

Increased popularity because of a re-work? Given, just look at every recent re-work. That almsot always happens. Stable win-rate? When you're as bullshit as a glorified adc with a front-loaded burst pattern that can kill 3 squishies in 5 seconds, sure. Niche? You mean pseudo-adc? OK. Less frustrating? Late game she becomes a monster raidboss like Nasus, only with mroe damage. Pro-pick? With something this bullshit and easy to use, I'd be surprised if she weren't.

Sounds like successful cancer to me.

LlaniteMay 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Increased popularity because of a re-work? Given, just look at every recent re-work. That almsot always happens. Stable win-rate? When you're as bullshit as a glorified adc with a front-loaded burst pattern that can kill 3 squishies in 5 seconds, sure. Niche? You mean pseudo-adc? OK. Less frustrating? Late game she becomes a monster raidboss like Nasus, only with mroe damage. Pro-pick? With something this bullshit and easy to use, I'd be surprised if she weren't.

Sounds like successful cancer to me.

Said 'rework' happened 2 months, 'recent' couldn't be more wrong.

She has decent popularity, decent win rate and ban rate is within top 30.

Cass IS strong and popular, you might not like her playstyle, but that's not Riot problem, which is why Stashnu is silent.

101100111000May 16, 20153 votes

You misread my first point. I said every recent re-work. Sion, Viktor, and Tristana all had fairly good re-works that made them popular and strong (Trist and Sion got nerfed a little, oh well). All 3 of those were strong re-works, gave the champion good popularity, and stability.

They were "strong and popular", in your own words.

Re-works shouldn't be simply to make champions strong and popular. They should be about giving a champion an updated kit that provides meaningful and unique gameplay which the playerbase actually likes. The Cass rework did nothing but provide inflated numbers on an arbitrary power gate. That's not a good rework.

Rinky DinkyMay 16, 20153 votes

Then you are, put quite simply, a fool.

By your logic, if I was to take, lets say lee sin, and make it so that he immediately wins every game by clicking R, he would fulfill all of the criteria you just suggested, making him a successful project.

Yes, that does sound stupid, doesn't it? Your criteria fits the very definition of cancer. Oh, but not just lane cancer, game cancer.

LlaniteMay 16, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lane Cancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekr8Qqks,comment-id=000500010002,timestamp=2015-05-16T08:21:22.221+0000)

Then you are, put quite simply, a fool.

By your logic, if I was to take, lets say lee sin, and make it so that he immediately wins every game by clicking R, he would fulfill all of the criteria you just suggested, making him a successful project.

Yes, that does sound stupid, doesn't it? Your criteria fits the very definition of cancer. Oh, but not just lane cancer, game cancer.

He would fail the 'winrate check', as win rate would be >50%.

101100111000May 16, 20153 votes

Not in ranked, where only one person gets to pick Lee Sin, henceforth 100% winrate.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Which is pretty funny because all LB gets since 2012 are nerfs. And yet suddenly she becomes a symbol of favoritism.

Cass rework checklist: +Increased popularity? Checked +Stable win rate? Checked +Have a niche? Checked +Less frustrating to play against? Checked +Start getting picked by pros? Checked

Sound like a successful project to me.

If you think Cass is less frustrating to play against now than she used to be then you've not played agaisnt post-rework Cass.

SammystormMay 16, 20151 votes

Shw was an absurd lane bully before. Also at least part of the reason she got reworked was because how many botters used cass.

Hyrum GraffMay 16, 20151 votes

I think they were primarily trying to get rid of Cass' "poke you from a long ways away without ever getting in range for you to retaliate" pattern. Which they did.

Thing is, "fish for Q's and E's until I hit one and you have to turn tail and run" isn't any more fun to play against than old Cass.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Hyrum Graff,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ekr8Qqks,comment-id=00050003,timestamp=2015-05-16T12:18:06.000+0000)

I think they were primarily trying to get rid of Cass' "poke you from a long ways away without ever getting in range for you to retaliate" pattern. Which they did.

Thing is, "fish for Q's and E's until I hit one and you have to turn tail and run" isn't any more fun to play against than old Cass.

IMO the real problem with Cass's poke was that she could do the standard "poke you from far away and run" pattern but you couldn't punish her up close either because Twin Fang made her much stronger in close range combat than most mages were. Her long range poke wasn't a problem, the problem was that you could neither win against her at long range, nor short range.

They could have made it so that she was not massively strong at long range or short range in the laning phase (scaling well late), or they could have done something more creative to fix her pattern. But instead they decided to do completely destroy her numbers so that she can still do all of her old play patterns... but she's just really really bad at the long ranged one now. They left her with the same kit but just eradicated her numbers so that she could only effectively use half of it anymore and called it a rework.

CanastusMay 15, 201512 votes

Stashu has a Twitter?

Oh boy, maybe I'll get my chance to harass him after all. >:^)

TheUltimateSpearMay 15, 20159 votes

Well, we'll see. Once Cass isn't very powerful, and by all means I think she's reasonable now, no one will play her. And everyone knows because she's only played for power and not because she's fun.

Soon enough. Maybe then this trash "Rework" will be undone.

ThryaleMay 16, 20153 votes

I haven't seen a cass in game in ages. :/

last one I saw went AD bot lane. Worst part was, my team still lost!

AquariusGineMay 15, 20155 votes

Stashu's twitter https://twitter.com/riotstashu

Please try to get him to return and do something (productive)

DrukyulMay 15, 201510 votes

Wouldn't Cass players prefer that someone else give it a whirl, instead of getting the same person to come back and fail again?

AquariusGineMay 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Wouldn't Cass players prefer that someone else give it a whirl, instead of getting the same person to come back and fail again?

Stashu isn't the only one working on Cass, but he's the one leading/ representing the rework. All complaints go to him until some else steps up :P

AbyssphereMay 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Stashu's twitter https://twitter.com/riotstashu

Please try to get him to return and do something (productive)

I hate looking at it :/ I can't believe a designer would ever watch their champ doing well (but hardly being ridiculous) in a competitive tournament and have their dominant thought be "That's enough". And he seems to think it's witty too, as if it's funny that he wants to nerf her again.

Vistha KaiMay 16, 20157 votes

This guy was the leader of Cassio rework and after days of constant feedback from the community and different changes to said rework, that's what he has to say? Why is still working in Riot again?

Paraphrashing Ekko: "Stashu is everything wrong with Riot."

MrBuffingtonMay 16, 20152 votes

I thought stashu left Riot since he just went dark so suddenly; I guess his twitter says otherwise

straight4freeMay 16, 20155 votes

Jesus, why is everybody convinced that the Cassiopeia rework is a failure.

A. Miasma and Noxious Blast do good damage late game. Not "you get hit and die" kind of damage, but enough to zone away opponents. In a recent 67 minute (!) game of mine as Cass, I was able to use Miasma to hold off 4 from getting the inhib while my allies respawned.

B. This only means to me that I'll be taking RoA over Archangels now. Her late game power will be hit by this but her early - mid game should be just fine.

For people who are so convinced that the Cassiopeia rework was a failure, you all sure are willing to risk another rework for no goddamn reason. Leave her as she is, she is fine.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20155 votes

{quoted}

Jesus, why is everybody convinced that the Cassiopeia rework is a failure.

A. Miasma and Noxious Blast do good damage late game. Not "you get hit and die" kind of damage, but enough to zone away opponents. In a recent 67 minute (!) game of mine as Cass, I was able to use Miasma to hold off 4 from getting the inhib while my allies respawned.

B. This only means to me that I'll be taking RoA over Archangels now. Her late game power will be hit by this but her early - mid game should be just fine.

For people who are so convinced that the Cassiopeia rework was a failure, you all sure are willing to risk another rework for no goddamn reason. Leave her as she is, she is fine.

Well of course after you get 1000 AP they'll be noticeable. But it really does take a veeeeeeeery long time before her poisons make anything close to a dent in people's lifebars and I don't think that's acceptable even if they start to exist at full build. Noxious Blast does the damage most similar abilities would do at 400 AP when she has a couple hundred more than that and Miasma needs much more than that too. You shouldn't need to wait 30+ minutes for your poisons to do respectable damage on their own - you certainly don't need to wait that long for Twin Fang.

straight4freeMay 16, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Well of course after you get 1000 AP they'll be noticeable. But it really does take a veeeeeeeery long time before her poisons make anything close to a dent in people's lifebars and I don't think that's acceptable even if they start to exist at full build. Noxious Blast does the damage most similar abilities would do at 400 AP when she has a couple hundred more than that and Miasma needs much more than that too. You shouldn't need to wait 30+ minutes for your poisons to do respectable damage on their own - you certainly don't need to wait that long for Twin Fang.

Her poison damage in lane is fine. Against many champions who have large danger zones, you can win through attrition with your Q and W in lane.

And if she's a hypercarry, why is it a problem for her damage to turn on late game?

AbyssphereMay 16, 20154 votes

{quoted}

Her poison damage in lane is fine. Against many champions who have large danger zones, you can win through attrition with your Q and W in lane.

And if she's a hypercarry, why is it a problem for her damage to turn on late game?

It's not a problem for her damage to "turn on" late, it's a problem (for me...) which of her damage turns on. Twin Fang is powerful from the second you get into lane - there's a reason she's known for her level 2 all-in and that's because Twin Fang is very strong the instant you get it and it doesn't get any weaker as the game goes on. But her poison isn't like that, I don't like that one of her abilities gets to be strong (obnoxiously so) throughout the entire game but two of her abilities (half of her kit) are terrible until you're basically full build. You're right, Noxious Blast isn't terrible in lane (can't agree on Miasma) but it completely falls off as you hit mid-game.

Her abilities should scale at least somewhat equally. I'm OK with her poisons not being that strong early but I'm not ok with them being pathetic for the majority of the game while Twin Fang is absolutely insane from the second you learn it. If Cass is meant to be a hypercarry then all of her abilities should be equally weak early on and equally strong late - that is how you make a satisfying kit. But with her current kit you just spend 30 minutes wondering why half of your kit is absolutely useless for damage while the rest has no such restrictions. There's nothing but bad feelings there.

If Twin Fang and her poisons both started moderately weak and ended up strong then I'd be fine, but right now it's "her poisons are utterly, utterly worthless while Twin Fang is strong". When you play a hypercarry you have to expect a poor early game but nobody expects an ability to do as little as 20 base damage (hello level 1 Miasma). There's only so far a poor early game can go before it's just not fun.

straight4freeMay 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's not a problem for her damage to "turn on" late, it's a problem (for me...) which of her damage turns on. Twin Fang is powerful from the second you get into lane - there's a reason she's known for her level 2 all-in and that's because Twin Fang is very strong the instant you get it and it doesn't get any weaker as the game goes on. But her poison isn't like that, I don't like that one of her abilities gets to be strong (obnoxiously so) throughout the entire game but two of her abilities (half of her kit) are terrible until you're basically full build. You're right, Noxious Blast isn't terrible in lane (can't agree on Miasma) but it completely falls off as you hit mid-game.

Her abilities should scale at least somewhat equally. I'm OK with her poisons not being that strong early but I'm not ok with them being pathetic for the majority of the game while Twin Fang is absolutely insane from the second you learn it. If Cass is meant to be a hypercarry then all of her abilities should be equally weak early on and equally strong late - that is how you make a satisfying kit. But with her current kit you just spend 30 minutes wondering why half of your kit is absolutely useless for damage while the rest has no such restrictions. There's nothing but bad feelings there.

If Twin Fang and her poisons both started moderately weak and ended up strong then I'd be fine, but right now it's "her poisons are utterly, utterly worthless while Twin Fang is strong". When you play a hypercarry you have to expect a poor early game but nobody expects an ability to do as little as 20 base damage (hello level 1 Miasma). There's only so far a poor early game can go before it's just not fun.

In lane, her Miasma is a zoning tool and used for its strong AoE slow. The enemy does not want to stand in it to give you free passive stacks and so it shuts off a section of the lane at very little effort. Of course they can step in it and take the minimal damage, but the simple fact is they prefer not to. This is a very strong advantage for Cass because if you can use your W to deny a position, it makes hitting Q very easy because you can be nearly certain of certain directions that the enemy will not go.

AquariusGineMay 15, 20154 votes

I'm a neutral fan of that passive, but even I feel it's a silly passive. I want to be rewarded for making plays like other mages. Make plays -> get gold-> snowball.

Waiting 30 minute to hyper carry only sounds cool on paper, in practice it leaves the champion very unsatisfying for a large portion of the game

The current pbe nerfs will leave our Lady in the same state before the buffs - too weak to make it to lategame

AbyssphereMay 15, 20154 votes

{quoted}

I'm a neutral fan of that passive, but even I feel it's a silly passive. I want to be rewarded for making plays like other mages. Make plays -> get gold-> snowball.

Waiting 30 minute to hyper carry only sounds cool on paper, in practice it leaves the champion very unsatisfying for a large portion of the game

The current pbe nerfs will leave our Lady in the same state before the buffs - too weak to make it to lategame

The thing about the passive for me is that either she's tuned so that she's good even before the passive turns on properly (the way she has been since the 4.21 buffs) or she has to wait for a very arbitrary time to come where she becomes good. Either your enemy has a horrible time playing against someone who's very strong early but will also outscale them or the Cass player gets to spend 30 minutes being bullied around before they get to do anything (by which time it's often too late).

Do you get to feel really powerful after you finish stacking? You absolutely do. But either what happens before then is totally unfair on your opponent ("why is she already stronger than me? Shouldn't I be bullying her right now?") or it's totally unfair to the Cass player ("how come every other mage gets to have fun while I'm waiting around?").

calicferMay 15, 20152 votes

Nah, she's a blast in the top lane. Also you never ask "how come every other mage gets to have fun while I'm waiting around?" if you love the hyper carry. It is allways "OH SHIT OH SHIT I DON"T WANT TO DIE (but I really need to keep my cs up!!!)" for the first 20 minutes. The real challenge it to know when to roam and get that early kill by ambushing another lane. (for casseopia, you do that by abusing your sustain, for others by taking tp to be more mobile). Also wave control & forcing your opponent to over extend into a jungle gank while trying to take advantage of your early weakness.

There are a lot of ways playing on the backfoot early is fun. especially when you are rewarded with ridiculous power by playing well and not snowballing the enemy.

AbyssphereMay 15, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Nah, she's a blast in the top lane. Also you never ask "how come every other mage gets to have fun while I'm waiting around?" if you love the hyper carry. It is allways "OH SHIT OH SHIT I DON"T WANT TO DIE (but I really need to keep my cs up!!!)" for the first 20 minutes. The real challenge it to know when to roam and get that early kill by ambushing another lane. (for casseopia, you do that by abusing your sustain, for others by taking tp to be more mobile). Also wave control & forcing your opponent to over extend into a jungle gank while trying to take advantage of your early weakness.

There are a lot of ways playing on the backfoot early is fun. especially when you are rewarded with ridiculous power by playing well and not snowballing the enemy.

I disagree regarding the "you never ask..." thing regarding hypercarries. The reason why is that most hypercarries scale through items and they can easily fast-forward that. Azir for example, if he snowballs or just farms really well, will get to his items quicker, massively speeding up his hyperscaling. But Cass is different because her passive has a timer to it. She can have 20 kills at 10 minutes and she'll still be several hundred stacks off of finishing her passive and stuck with really subpar ratios (this is actually exacerbated by Cass's passive actually punishing her for killing people because... you can't poison a dead person).

I differentiate Cass from other carries because while I'm happy to be a champion with a poor early and strong late, I don't find it acceptable that Cass has basically no way to influence the rate at which she scales. Her passive can be slowed down if she's bullied away from lane but there's very little difference between a Cass who is doing alright and a Cass who's doing extremely well as regards her passive. She'll still scale through her items of course but she does that to a lesser extent than most mages because her ratios are suppressed to make up for her passive.

Occams RaiserMay 16, 20151 votes

Why do people play any late carries by this belief?

junglerboy16May 15, 20153 votes

Virtually nothing else changed except the manner in which she scales (instead of scaling with high early damage and then picking up late game with immense AP ratios, she has average ratios and a totally constricted means of gaining immense AP to utilize it). I'd say the health return was the best thing to happen to her with the rework, and if it was strong, then that's deserving of a nerf (I mean really, late game she'll still gain about 50 health on hit from the 6% AP ratio the heal now has.

PhoenixSlayer13May 16, 20153 votes

I'll be completely honest here: Cass's main problem was that she had a fragmented fanbase. People either hated Twin Fang and loved poison chipping or loved Fang spam and used poison simply as a tool for more spam. Very, very, very few people played a middle ground between the two playstyles. That could be ok if the playstyles utilized different item builds, but pretty much every Cass built the same way. Then, when adjustments were made towards Twin Fang, people freaked the fuck out.

I honestly think her rework would have been received better if her whole damn kit was scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up.

NapaImMay 16, 20153 votes

I just wanted Cass to be a poison mage. Why does she have to be an AP urgot? Why can't she just deal good poison damage? idk Rito.

OwlytheMay 15, 20152 votes

Can.. Someone link me to this whole Cassiopeia nerf/rework? I can't find shit on it.

SaiannaMay 16, 20152 votes

From the first day her rework hit live i knew that if zombie apocalypse were to happen I'd kick Stashu right into group of hungry zombies with smile on my face while making photos and singing "what a wonderful day".

SammystormMay 16, 20152 votes

I honestly don't understand cass rework bitching when it is about twin fangs. Cass has always been about twin fangs. When she is played twin fangs is absurd when she is bad twin fangs is not good. I can understand not liking that Cass is a dps mage by repeated burst from twin fangs instead of poison but seriously she has always been very reliant on twin fangs. I mean it is almost like asking for Malzahar or Swain to become burst mages because you think their models/character/personality says they should. The reality is that Cass's identity has always been revolving around Twin fangs. That is most likely not what you imagine or not what you want but it would be better to just have a different champion who was actually intended to be a dot mage. Like malzahar.

Champion SkinMay 16, 20151 votes

Well... then again... what did the rework really fix or change....

SammystormMay 16, 20151 votes

It solidified her identity and actually made her more powerful. It also boosted her popularity.

The Queen ViperMay 16, 20152 votes

Actually before the rework there were 2 different playstyles... Maxing Q first and using it to poke / using Twin Fangs as an execute, and then maxing E first and going ham like now. Cass hasn't always been about the Twin Fang... her Q used to deal more dmg than her Fangs.

SammystormMay 16, 20152 votes

Noxious blast never really did more damage then twin fangs. Sure a single cast or noxious blast or miasma would out damage a single cast of twin fangs but when you landed poison it was most of the time beneficial to land as many twin fangs as possible no matter how you played her. Even now you can poke with q until you get a good position and then deal massive damage with twin fangs. Arguing that the poke with poison play style was her identity even though it was not the optimal or the popular way to play her is just silly. Cass has always been about landing many repeated twin fangs. No one ever whittled opponents down with poison to just execute with a twins fangs cast. People always got the opponent low enough with a combination of poke from her q and e spam and then landed either noxious blast or miasma and went ham with e. Which really isn't much different then how she currently plays.

AbyssphereMay 16, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Noxious blast never really did more damage then twin fangs. Sure a single cast or noxious blast or miasma would out damage a single cast of twin fangs but when you landed poison it was most of the time beneficial to land as many twin fangs as possible no matter how you played her. Even now you can poke with q until you get a good position and then deal massive damage with twin fangs. Arguing that the poke with poison play style was her identity even though it was not the optimal or the popular way to play her is just silly. Cass has always been about landing many repeated twin fangs. No one ever whittled opponents down with poison to just execute with a twins fangs cast. People always got the opponent low enough with a combination of poke from her q and e spam and then landed either noxious blast or miasma and went ham with e. Which really isn't much different then how she currently plays.

Some of this is true - in the past you would make a lot of use of your E regardless of what you wanted to max and that was fine, but there was a balance to her kit (i.e. in the usefulness of her poisons versus her fangs) that no longer exists. If you chose to max your poisons (and even if not, because Q had an 80% AP ratio and W had double its current ratio back then), they had an important role in weakening your opponent's health so that you could either force them out of lane or try to all-in them with Twin Fang when they were low enough. Both halves of her kit had equal use there.

Now? Not so much. Your poisons don't whittle down your opponent anymore (aside from Q in early laning) because they don't have the damage for it. Your poke pattern is Q/WEEE and your all-in pattern is Q/WEEEEE. Your poisons don't serve as poke so that you can finish them with Twin Fang anymore. Your poisons serve as setup so you can poke with Twin Fang and setup so you can kill with Twin Fang. Do you see the difference?

People can overestimate the strength of her poisons pre-rework - no, you never 100-0d someone just by hitting poisons. If you relied entirely on poison damage then you bullied people out of lane but you never actually got a kill. But Q-max was still very viable if you wanted a safer laning phase (Twin Fang spamming does make you a lot more vulnerable to ganks and Cass does not do well when ganked) and your all-in didn't suffer that much because E still has a 55% AP ratio every half a second regardless of base.

No, her poisons shouldn't do all her damage for her. But they should at least be worthwhile poke and they aren't even that right now. They set up for Twin Fang being worthwhile poke despite also setting up for it being your all-in. They have no place in her kit other than giving her a reset on E right now.

SammystormMay 17, 20151 votes

All poison max did pre-rework was make her more of a bully in lane. People liked the poison chipping aspect of her pre-rework but her poisons just made her laning absurd.

Honestly people did the same thing pre-rework. The play styles were nearly identical. The only difference was what you maxed and if you did more dot damage or more burst damage from twin fangs. Over all her playstyle was still Q/WEEEEE.

It is a problem when you can make your laning better but still maintain the same all-in ability. She should have to choose between bulling and being able to all in effectively. The rework attempted to change her in that way but they didn't really succeed in making her not a bully. Basically for her to be a poison mage to the caliber that she was then twin fangs would have to be scrapped. Twin fangs as a spell is just too powerful to justify how powerful her poisons were previously.

TransgressorMay 16, 20151 votes

I still don't understand the reasoning behind overloading her Twin Fang ability. Be unlucky enough to get even a single fucking tick of poison, eat a trillion Twin Fangs to the face.

willcarry4goldMay 16, 20151 votes

I dont think cassiopeia is too strong atm, but my opinion is kinda biased cause I mainly play her. all of her abilities are pretty easy to dodge, and you can avoid being obliterated by dodging them. cassiopeia's passive will normally hit it's strongest point at around 40 minutes, and that's a pretty long time into the game. I do think that the cost on her E should be increased a little more because once I finish seraphs then I pretty much never run out of mana. She's pretty immobile so bad positioning in a team fight can really be punished. A few changes that could be made to cassio without making her trash are decreasing the heal when she uses her e, decreasing the CDR she gets from her passive by 5-10%, and increasing the cost on her E. Cassio would still be just a s fun to play but just a little less strong.