I don't understand the Fiddlesticks nerf

Abyssphere·Feb 10, 2015·82 votes·12,918 views

Literally nobody has been complaining about him, and he's not been dominating the jungle at all. He's also received multiple nerfs this season already, despite similar ambivalence from the players towards him. The change to his tether length wasn't even pushed to the PBE from memory...

I don't see why he needs nerfs when nobody has a problem with him. People are crying out for fixes to the jungle, whether it be nerfs to Jarvan and Lee or buffs to everyone else. It's starting to feel like Fiddlesticks is the jungle's very own Sona.

This isn't a rage thread or anything but only earlier today I was thinking "Oh I guess Riot is leaving people like Elise unplayable and J4/Lee too good because they're so unsure of the jungle meta" and "I guess Syndra's heading into patch #3 of worthlessness because they're not sure on the new 120 AP item and how it will affect the game" but if we have time to throw constant little nerfs at someone as inoffensive as Fiddle... why can't we have any actual productive change? :/

140 Comments

Derpy MikeFeb 10, 201539 votes

lowering Tether's range makes sure enemies can actually escape when he fails to scare them good and proper.

Apparently we're all fucking retards and Riot thinks we're incapable of walking away from a stationary target. There you go, now we understand. We're all dumbshits in the eyes of Riot. That's why he was nerfed.

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20155 votes

Apparently we're all fucking retards and Riot thinks we're incapable of walking away from a stationary target.

Well, when you're feared, you don't get that luxury. Unless you're Gangplank . Or Olaf . Or Morgana , or a champ she shielded.

Derpy MikeFeb 11, 201516 votes

when he fails to scare them

Being the operative words, friend. Meaning this nerf was intended to make it even easier for non-feared champions to escape range. Because apparently walking away from him while he channels is too difficult right now.

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20154 votes

Huh? There's no cast time for his Drain...

Derpy MikeFeb 11, 201514 votes

Channel =/= cast time.

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20153 votes

There is no channel time. Turn on your smartcast on targeted abilities.

Derpy MikeFeb 11, 201522 votes

Okay you clearly have no fucking idea what you're talking about.

Drain: Q: ACTIVE: Fiddlesticks creates a leash on a target enemy and channels for up to 5 seconds CHANNELS

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/pHnUiWEJdgA/maxresdefault.jpg

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20158 votes

So let me get this straight, you're complaining about an ability losing its tether range when 9/10 times it's coupled with a forced movement hard CC effect, and heals the champ for an asinine amount of health? The only thing balanced about Fiddle's W is the fact that he has to root himself in place, and even that is moot against squishy targets. It's an extremely binary ability. If Fiddle is ahead, he literally sucks all of the life out of your carries, if he's behind, it doesn't do anything. This is nothing new. Fiddlesticks is a binary champion that is determined more by his stats than the skill involved.

I'm not even bringing up Ryali's. That makes the ability a nightmare by itself. All in all, Fiddle's W had very little counterplay to it. It isn't going to affect his jungle, so outside of not being able to pubstomp and cheese anymore, I quite frankly don't see what the problem is.

Derpy MikeFeb 11, 201529 votes

forced movement hard CC effect,

You mean the same forced movement that pushes them away from him? You mean the same forced movement that actively assists the enemy in breaking his drain? You mean that Forced movement?

Are you fucking braindead?

All in all, Fiddle's W had very little counterplay to it other than out damaging it and other than interrupting him with a stun/silence/knock-up/gentle breeze and other than walking out of range and other than banchies and other than grievous wounds and other than cleanse VERY LITTLE COUNTERPLAY

Oh? So that would be a yes then?

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20154 votes

If you remember, I brought up cleanses in my original argument.

Well, when you're feared, you don't get that luxury. Unless you're Gangplank. Or Olaf. Or Morgana, or a champ she shielded.

Secondly, out damaging it? There's only one way you're outdamaging that, and that's if you're playing a champ with Grievous Wounds (so pretty much Varus and MissFortune ). You're underestimating the power of a flat heal from damage, which is why Sona got it removed, Soraka got it nerfed, and Gangplank and Xin Zhao are most likely getting their sustain abilities %missing health once the fighter rework goes live. Oh, cool, I killed two birds with one stone Galio .

I already mentioned the walking out of range argument, no need to beat that to death.

You're not going to rush Banshee's against Fiddlesticks unless he's fed, and by that point it's probably already too late. And you also seem to forget he has three other abilities that pop Banshee's spell shield. All Fiddle has to do is hit you with his E before fearing you, and you're back to square one.

I think your strongest argument is the channel interrupt, yes, but you need a stun, a silence, a knockup, or a channel interrupt. So let's run that down, shall we... (I'm intentionally omitting champs that only have their ultimates.)

Aatrox Ahri Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie Blitzcrank Braum (really iffy due to the dependence on autoattacks from teammates) Chogath Darius Diana Draven Elise Fiddlesticks Garen Gnar (iffy since he needs to be mega) Gragas Hecarim Heimerdinger Irelia Janna JarvanIV Jax Jayce Kassadin Kennen (iffy due to the need to stack his passive) Leona Lulu Malzahar Nautilus Pantheon Poppy Quinn Rammus RekSai Renekton Riven Singed Sion Skarner (once again, iffy because you have to stack his passive) Soraka Syndra (iffy cuz she's bugged right now) Taric Thresh Trundle TwistedFate Udyr Vayne Veigar Velkoz Volibear XinZhao Yasuo Xerath Zac Zilean (in the new patch.)

Now you're probably thinking I'm admitting defeat, but from those list of champions, here's the ones that can safely disengage from his tether because their ability is effective outside of his fear's range, or they're tanks and can survive the crowd control.

Aatrox Ahri Alistar Amumu Anivia Annie Blitzcrank Garen Gragas Hecarim Kassadin (anti-caster) Leona Lulu Malzahar Nautilus Syndra Taric Vayne Velkoz Volibear Zilean Xerath

My oh my, that list got quite a bit smaller didn't it? I rest my case.

Dar RaksadaFeb 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

If you remember, I brought up cleanses in my original argument.

Secondly, out damaging it? There's only one way you're outdamaging that, and that's if you're playing a champ with Grievous Wounds (so pretty much and ). You're underestimating the power of a flat heal from damage, which is why Sona got it removed, Soraka got it nerfed, and Gangplank and Xin Zhao are most likely getting their sustain abilities %missing health once the fighter rework goes live. Oh, cool, I killed two birds with one stone .

I already mentioned the walking out of range argument, no need to beat that to death.

You're not going to rush Banshee's against Fiddlesticks unless he's fed, and by that point it's probably already too late. And you also seem to forget he has three other abilities that pop Banshee's spell shield. All Fiddle has to do is hit you with his E before fearing you, and you're back to square one.

I think your strongest argument is the channel interrupt, yes, but you need a stun, a silence, a knockup, or a channel interrupt. So let's run that down, shall we... (I'm intentionally omitting champs that only have their ultimates.)

(really iffy due to the dependence on autoattacks from teammates) (iffy since he needs to be mega) (iffy due to the need to stack his passive) (once again, iffy because you have to stack his passive) (iffy cuz she's bugged right now) (in the new patch.)

Now you're probably thinking I'm admitting defeat, but from those list of champions, here's the ones that can safely disengage from his tether because their ability is effective outside of his fear's range, or they're tanks and can survive the crowd control.

(anti-caster)

My oh my, that list got quite a bit smaller didn't it? I rest my case.

Ehm, you're still ignoring half the champions, keep in mind his fear range is 575, I'm pretty sure Janna Chogath Veigar Yasuo and many others in your list that you excluded easily cc him without being in fear range.

But yeah, if you deliberately ignore over half the champs that can break his tether he seems op, I agree there.

Icy AuronFeb 11, 20154 votes

Yasuo definitely has time to stack three Qs and launch it at Fid while he's being Drained. Awesome point.

SkiasFeb 11, 201510 votes

Or he could dash in any given direction, break it and dash back. What is wrong with people?

rekd1Feb 11, 20154 votes

So, Riven got omitted from the final list because she can't simply dash to fiddle, stun him, then use her 3 q's to run away? Udyr isn't fast enough in Tiger form to either stun her and run, or just run? Darius can't pull Fiddle and kill him since Fiddle's main source of dmg comes from W? Rammus can't Q and roll away at Sonic The Hedgehog speed? Heimer doesn't have a grenade stun? Jax can't ward hop? Jayce can't cast his gates and outrun him?

I'm not going to go through the rest

Icy AuronFeb 11, 20155 votes

"Fear actively helps you break the tether."

I too find that crippling slows are effective at helping enemies escape.

rekd1Feb 11, 20155 votes

When Fiddlesticks fears someone, they run in the opposite direction from where the fear was casted. And more times than not, Fiddle will begin his drain almost immediately after casting fear. So yes, the fear is helping break the tether

Spacesuit SpiffFeb 12, 20153 votes

Helping, but nowhere near as much as not fearing them would...

Icy AuronFeb 12, 20152 votes

Slows really help the person trying to escape. Similarly, this is why Thresh's ult is only used for damage.

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 11, 20156 votes

Couldn't people just leave Fiddle's W range? If someone is feared by a fiddles it makes them leave him and can likely get them out of the range of his W on its own as I have seen so far.

Remlap1223Feb 11, 20155 votes

I mentioned this beforehand, but a good Fiddle player is going to get right up in your business to stay in tether range. By the time they escape the fear, they're too low to successfully engage the newly healed fiddle.

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 11, 20154 votes

How do they fear a player and keep them in tether range? Normally when I try that they end up leaving my teather even when I am hugging them when I start. I DO understand I am not an expert fiddles so I am not challenging you, just trying to figure it out XD

junglerboy16Feb 11, 20155 votes

Channel means he stands there for the few seconds that the spell is in effect, and CCing him with a silence, stun, or displacement cancels it. Completely different than cast time or smart cast (it is a channel regardless of whether or not you smart cast genius).

junglerboy16Feb 11, 20158 votes

you do realize that fear makes them walk away from him? I actually see more people escape his tether because the fear walked them away than people who don't.

NicosareaFeb 12, 20152 votes

OMG YES, I was so confused why they nerfed his tether range in the first place because they know that fear (err, terrify) makes opponents walk AWAY from Fiddlesticks!

The5lackerFeb 11, 20159 votes

If you take "Hey we wanted to make sure people can actually leave the tether range when in the jungle" as a personal attack on your intelligence, you may have some (potentially accurate) fears you need to work out.

Final EmperorFeb 11, 201512 votes

Derpy I could not agree with you more. Not to mention, Fiddlesticks is a 6 year old champion. 6 years old! Since when did people start having a panic attack about stationary targets you can easily escape? They already nerfed fear hardcore, a TON of champions counter/interrupt him, it's absolutely crazy.

Derpy MikeFeb 11, 20157 votes

Yes I'd like to believe that my points are fairly reasonable and valid. I just need to work on communicating them in a way that's a little less mmmmmmmm hostile.

SammystormFeb 11, 20152 votes

the tether range was huge.

AriafluxFeb 11, 201512 votes

LeBlanc's E: 1000 range; can move; skillshot; slow Karma's W: 675 range; can move; targeted; no cc Morgana's R: 1050 range; can move; targeted; slow Swain's Q: 900 range; can't move; targeted; slow

Fiddlesticks' W: 650 range; can't move; targeted; no cc

700 range doesn't seem huge at all.

SkiasFeb 11, 20157 votes

Thats because its not. There goes our one viable AP jungler.

SammystormFeb 11, 20151 votes

Just because other champions also have ridiculous long tether ranges doesn't mean fiddles isn't long. Also every other tether you just mentioned is primarily used for the utility attached. Fiddles can become a drain tank with his and deal massive damage.

AriafluxFeb 12, 20153 votes

First of all, I'm not sure why it's OK to have higher ranges when used for utility. A root means you and your team's follow-up attacks can hit easier, so it's even more powerful than a skill with no cc involved. Furthermore, Fiddlesticks is the only champion who maxes his tether skill first, so a damage comparison really isn't relevant. In any case, the stats are:

LeBlanc's E: 280 (+100% AP); 1.5s; root 1.5s; DPS = 187 (+67% AP) Karma's W: 260 (+60% AP); 2s; root 2s; DPS = 130 (+30% AP) Morgana's R: 600 (+140% AP); 3s; stun 1.5s; DPS = 200 (+47% AP) Swain's Q: 255 (+90 AP); 3s; no cc; DPS = 85 (+30% AP)

Fiddlesticks's W: 900 (+255% AP); 5s; no cc; DPS = 180 (+45% AP)

Fiddlesticks does do more damage compared to Karma and Swain, but since his is a channel, he can not use other skills during this period, while all other champions can use their skills freely. Furthermore, any cc, even a simple displacement like Quinn's E, will cancel Fiddlesticks' drain.

SammystormFeb 12, 20151 votes

It is ok for the cc to have a longer tether range for 1 of two reasons: A) it is a skill shot and can miss or B) the cc can be countered or dodged.

Now fiddle has a 2.25 second cc. That means that at least half his damage is landing unless you have team mates and he doesn't have team mates. On top of that it is a point and click skill and their is no real way to dodge the damage other then tanking half of it then flashing.

NdleslyLargeAnusFeb 12, 20153 votes

Terrify is only 2.25 seconds at the highest level. Drain is usually maxed first. In the beginning terrify is only 1.25 seconds.
Drain lasts for up to 5 seconds. 2.25 seconds is less than half of 5 seconds.
Due to the nature of drain, it actually requires a quality estimation of time and placement to make its use worth the mana cost, worth putting on CD, and worth potentially risking your life because you're required to stand still for drain to function (Hey, guys, fiddle is standing still for us - This is GREAT - he can't run away now!). Even if the usage of drain is the 'correct' move in a given situation, it's still highly risky and gets the Fiddle killed ALL the time even if it looks like it might work out in the beginning. SO, yes, it's 'point and click' but it actually requires skill. His abilities must be performed in the correct order or they're all worthless. This is a big reason why people find him difficult and why he's picked less than 9% of the time.
Simply looking at him wrong will often break Fiddle drain. Fiddle drain is right up there with the Katarina Ult, you breathe on it, and it's done. I really have no sympathy for anyone who actually takes complaints about drain seriously. If you can't break drain you should run away. Fiddlesticks has no use at all if he can drain someone and that person of equal item strength is able to tank through drain and overpower him. Drain is literally all this champion has as a last resort form of defense. It should be a punishment for people getting too close and not a reward. Without drain, Fiddle has no way to escape. He's depended on taking Flash because that area of his kit is not only weak - it literally does not exist. He's so squishy that he's basically also depend on the purchase of Zhonya's Hourglass. Drain is not just a way for Fiddle to kill people - in most cases it's the only thing that allows him to stay alive for longer than 3 seconds. Furthermore, he has the second lowest HP stat out of ALL champions. Anivia is number one. For some reason Mundo can regenerate TONS of health and he's a TANK.
If you can't break drain - GUESS WHAT - There's this thing it's called IGNITE. You kill him with it. If you get in a drain-off with him and you have SOME damage, you will kill him because IGNITE will ruin his ability to regenerate his health. It really doesn't get more simple than that. Don't like this? BANSHEE'S. Don't like this? ZHONYA'S. No sympathy for you if you can't figure this drain thing out.
I just got done attempting to play Fiddle with the new tether length, you'd think that -50 would be bad but perhaps manageable. NO. It's actually unplayable. I literally could not get kills when I ulted directly on a squishy target with limited MR, feared it immediately, crowed it, drained, drained, they walk out of tether length and actually get away. This is the kind of play that should be a guaranteed kill. I was ahead in the game, I had close to 100 ap at about the 12 min mark or so. I used all my abilities on the same target. My ult landed right on the target. They did not have flash available. I was unable to get a single kill on my own the whole game even though I had items and I wasn't behind. We won by way of a stomp, I had more gold than most of the other team's champs from assists and farming and still I could not get a kill that wasn't the result of some random last hit.

It's really that bad. If you don't actually play Fiddle then you don't actually know. And by actually play I mean MAIN and by MAIN I mean MAIN that has played at least 2,000 games with him.

SammystormFeb 12, 20151 votes

You lose all credibility if you can't kill a squishy you ulted on. Literally I could kill a squishy before this nerf that I ulted on. It literally is not game breaking. It just feels better to play against in most situations.

NdleslyLargeAnusFeb 12, 20152 votes

Not really. As I stated earlier it would've been a guaranteed kill in the old patch.

How-good-you-are dick-swinging really has nothing to do with a conversation meant to be purely about balance adjustments.

But of course you would know better because you've played a grand total of ZERO ranked Fiddle games all season. Last season it was a magical 12 total.

Plz...

But in a strange way, you are correct. Ulting and combo-ing on a squishy SHOULD result in a kill. It doesn't anymore. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Killer X 12Feb 11, 20153 votes

Thats also why they don't listen to our feedback lol

SquarefighterFeb 12, 20151 votes

They literally removed 50 range from the tether no reason to get so ornery

643643734775743Feb 12, 20152 votes

{quoted}

They literally removed 50 range from the tether no reason to get so ornery

There's no reason to remove it though. Players should be punished if they're too dumb to move away from fiddle's drain(or use a cc on fiddle).

SquarefighterFeb 12, 20151 votes

I play a fair amount of fiddle and honestly how does this punish people who are too dumb to move away from his drain?

It's literally a way to make it easier to walk away from his drain. If people are too dumb to move away from fidd drain, then this nerf wouldn't affect them at all, right?

643643734775743Feb 13, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I play a fair amount of fiddle and honestly how does this punish people who are too dumb to move away from his drain?

It's literally a way to make it easier to walk away from his drain. If people are too dumb to move away from fidd drain, then this nerf wouldn't affect them at all, right?

Sorry. What I mean is if people try to fight fiddle and fail to kill fiddle then it's the player's fault. They should be punish for overestimating their kill potential.

This nerf will make it easier for players to leave without taking all the damage if they make a bad choice and try to go all in on fiddlesticks.

ThePlasticSporkFeb 11, 201515 votes

Fiddle is pretty strong right now. Just because he's not stronger than the big 3 in the jungle doesn't mean he's not stronger than the majority of the junglers in the game. You don't see anybody complain about him because they're too busy focusing on whatever gets played in the LCS, but if Vi/Jarvan/Lee would all nerfed one of their replacements would undoubtedly be Fiddle.

AbyssphereFeb 11, 201512 votes

{quoted}

Fiddle is pretty strong right now. Just because he's not stronger than the big 3 in the jungle doesn't mean he's not stronger than the majority of the junglers in the game. You don't see anybody complain about him because they're too busy focusing on whatever gets played in the LCS, but if Vi/Jarvan/Lee would all nerfed one of their replacements would undoubtedly be Fiddle.

Don't get me wrong, I know how good Fiddle is. He's a fine jungler for sure and yes it's possible he'd be one of the better picks if the ones above him got nerfed. But that is not reason to nerf him several times before even touching the people who are, currently, better than him.

It's not even just a complaint about Fiddle being treated unfairly, it's a complaint about them being able to deal with supposed problems that aren't of huge importance right now (someone who might be too strong if those above him are nerfed) while they have so many problems they could be dealing with that are so much more important.

Nucleophilic atkFeb 11, 201511 votes

Jungle Nerf? Try laning with him. Completely useless now.

TwoDFeb 11, 201511 votes

self serving bias, Riot balance team is notorious for that.

Yulen XoshxiusFeb 11, 201510 votes

They don't want someone as scary as fiddlesticks getting anywhere near the trinity's level.

AbrahamBaconhamFeb 11, 20153 votes

2spooky

Learn 2 SwimFeb 11, 20157 votes

approaching 20 junglers nerfed this season and lee sin isnt one of them

im a fidd main (400ish games) and i dont care about this nerf because ive given up on this shit game and only play ARAM now

SpookzieFeb 11, 20155 votes

I've got 99 problems and lee sin is all of them.

Ale non è maleFeb 11, 20156 votes

The problem is that now Fiddle has no chance to keep the enemy he tethered at the very edge of his W (and Q) cast range for the full Drain duration without putting himself at risk because the enemy must only walk for 75/100 units to go out of his tether range...he is forced move towards the enemy from the very first moment he starts the channel if he want to keep the tether, exposing himself even more in a fight than what he does now. They made one glearing weakness of his kit even bigger, and that's no sense since Fiddle is not the first of the problems on jungle at the moment