Why has Aurelion Sol been nerfed?

YumaS2Astral·Mar 29, 2016·10 votes·9,016 views

He is a new champion and as far as I know people aren't complaining about him, and many people have already said he is actually weak.

47 Comments

RiotMeddlerMar 30, 201615 votes

People aren't complaining about him and at present there are a lot of people still figuring him out. We're seeing players with a moderate number of games under their belts perform quite a bit better than appropriate though so we're trimming a bit of power off him.

BeldairMar 30, 20161 votes

Can I ask where? The damage from his stars? Or on his Q?

The Sword SaintMar 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Can I ask where? The damage from his stars? Or on his Q?

His stun is down by .5 seconds, now it's 1.5 seconds at max rank instead of 2. Also his slow lasts half as long but doesn't decay anymore.

BeldairMar 30, 20161 votes

Ah ok

Thanks.

ArcticSiriusMar 30, 20162 votes

As people are still figuring him out, they're also learning how to play against him. The Q is fine imo, but that change on his R has me some mixed feelings

HasanK11Mar 30, 201610 votes

that has a lot more to do with the fact that people who don't know the intricacies of sol's kit and gameplay patterns will not understand their matchups and will fail to accommodate, allowing sol to perform better.

I implore you to give it more time before coming to a decision.

RiotMeddlerMar 30, 20168 votes

There's certainly some learning to play against him going on. So far from what we've seen though, and this is a pattern that's been true of every past champion release with at least a moderate learning curve, learning to play as has a steeper curve than playing against.

We are trying to avoid overnerfing here, discussion here today was on whether we should be nerfing additional parts of his kit at this point or going for these changes and then reassessing.

ProfirixMar 30, 20167 votes

As soon as players begin to utilize his glaring weakness (inner zone) by playing melee assassins into him, his win rate will drop significantly. I am a bit concerned that the proposed changes will shave too much off too soon and leave him in a sorry state. Pre-6 there is nothing he can do to stop an experienced player from sitting on top of him, and post-6 he has a long cooldown ultimate that he will have to use to save himself.

I understand why you are making these changes early, but it would serve the data-gathering group better if you sample data for two weeks, which should be enough time for players to get accustomed to laning against him. The early day ban craze has practically made it so I can't even play the poor dragon. That doesn't say much for my ability to play him.

LankPantsMar 30, 20167 votes

The nerfs on the PBE are quite large in scope. You're reducing his Q stun by 25% at rank 5 and reducing his ult slow duration by 50%. Overall that's a huge loss of CC, I wouldn't call this a conservative nerf, it's a pretty harsh one.

VentusDragoonMar 30, 20163 votes

There's probably a pretty low chance of you seeing and/or replying to this, but are there any plans to fix technical things with him? I actually don't mind his damage at all (although it is a bit surprising when you first see him), it's more of the fact that when Celestial Expansion is up, the hitboxes of his stars are more than triple the size of what they show, making people take a ton of damage when they don't even see themselves being hit.

TL:DR-- Are Celestial Expansion's animations going to be matched to the hitboxes?

EyesOfTheFoxMar 30, 20162 votes

I agree about how misleading the hit boxes are when the W is active. He gave me a lot of trouble with this the first few times I faced him. Once I realized how messed up the hit boxes are compared to the graphic I made sure I was no where near them. Although this can be frustrating if he's chasing someone and they get destroyed because of this discrepancy. He really is a no skill champion, regardless of him having to move around.

PykelMar 30, 20161 votes

you say people are trying to learn him and once hes learned he will be op so your trying to nerf him b4 hes op. 1. that makes no sense if anything let him be dominant for a patch find whats actually too strong then nerf him. 2. the only reason anyone does good as him now is the complete lack of knowing how to play against him.

C9 Scott Free Mar 31, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Squad Mike,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9J9gnvE,comment-id=0002000200000003,timestamp=2016-03-30T16:04:17.173+0000)

you say people are trying to learn him and once hes learned he will be op so your trying to nerf him b4 hes op. 1. that makes no sense if anything let him be dominant for a patch find whats actually too strong then nerf him. 2. the only reason anyone does good as him now is the complete lack of knowing how to play against him.

Actually I would say his biggest problem is just being able to make his Q the size of a nexus and more. Thats the real reason his stun length is getting nerfed IMO. Having something eat up the whole lane so that everyone has to dodge and move away from it is pretty strong for zoning and in general can allow you to stun a whole team.

PykelApr 1, 20161 votes

even if he does, it takes a lot to get the q going as well as if they hit him once in his e he drops out of it. also why would u make an already pretty bad champ worse all game for that one time where he lands the perfect base q to mid for a 5 man stun? thats like gutting malph ult because he might land a 5 man ult.

C9 Scott Free Apr 1, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=God Squad Mike,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9J9gnvE,comment-id=000200020000000300000000,timestamp=2016-04-01T19:15:55.362+0000)

even if he does, it takes a lot to get the q going as well as if they hit him once in his e he drops out of it. also why would u make an already pretty bad champ worse all game for that one time where he lands the perfect base q to mid for a 5 man stun? thats like gutting malph ult because he might land a 5 man ult.

Even if he isn't doing a from base run the Q us still a pretty potent zone tool and can easily stun multiple people during a team fight any time and isn't that hard to hit TBH. Damage oriented characters tend to be oppressive AF if allowed extreme hard CC especially since his is AOE

NotSoEvilDeadMar 30, 20161 votes

If you're "trying to avoid overnerfing" then you've already failed. Aurelion Sol's ult CD is already much too long, since he has essentially nothing to do during ult downtime in the mid- to late- game. Now you've gutted his Q, which was one of the only reasons to play him.

Given that you're already pushing him towards rylai's, it would be best if you took the slow off the ult and gave him power elsewhere (reducing ult CD drastically, adding %max hp damage to stars). As it stands, you're trying to make stars his main source of damage and they are COMPLETE garbage. There's no other way to say it.

C9 Scott Free Mar 31, 20161 votes

{quoted}

If you're "trying to avoid overnerfing" then you've already failed. Aurelion Sol's ult CD is already much too long, since he has essentially nothing to do during ult downtime in the mid- to late- game. Now you've gutted his Q, which was one of the only reasons to play him.

Given that you're already pushing him towards rylai's, it would be best if you took the slow off the ult and gave him power elsewhere (reducing ult CD drastically, adding %max hp damage to stars). As it stands, you're trying to make stars his main source of damage and they are COMPLETE garbage. There's no other way to say it.

He doesn't need %health damage at all. His level one when he stars W is actually pretty insane. Overall, he's actually very good against other mages. possibley even too good. And because of his Q not having a size cap a 2 second stun is actually pretty insane.

NotSoEvilDeadApr 9, 20161 votes

The issue is he simply can't fight a large subset of tanky characters. His Q's reactivation weakness already give them a large enough window to counterplay him. But if he lands his Q and turns a 1v1 fight, he simply poses NO threat to tanky characters. You seem to be confusing "shift some of his star dmg to %max hp while keeping overall dmg output against squishies the same" with "give his stars more damage." Which wasn't what I said.

C9 Scott Free Apr 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The issue is he simply can't fight a large subset of tanky characters. His Q's reactivation weakness already give them a large enough window to counterplay him. But if he lands his Q and turns a 1v1 fight, he simply poses NO threat to tanky characters. You seem to be confusing "shift some of his star dmg to %max hp while keeping overall dmg output against squishies the same" with "give his stars more damage." Which wasn't what I said.

I don't think being weak to tanky characters equals bad. But I apologize I just didn't see that outlined that well in your post. I also think %damage deals damage in % against anyone which makes it oppressive no matter what really whether you are squishy or not. I think he's a secondary carry champ not a primary carry. I view Azir as a primary carry and Sol is about setting up constant damage and somewhat helping your ADC free hit.

NotSoEvilDeadApr 9, 20161 votes

No worries.

I don't have a problem with him being weak to certain characters. But at present, he simply can't fight a large stable of characters mid-to-late- game. He simply can't generate enough threat to meaningfully deal with these characters.

Certainly, riot might not have an issue with this. But from my perspective, it's absolutely boring to play as. You're completely reliant on your team's primary engage or putting your ult on a long cooldown to (maybe) snipe someone about to exit your range. Which is a shame, because I love the core of the champion (the stars, the EQ combo, the range/rotational speed amp on W).

Edit: though the new AP itemization may help this slightly, I suppose (hextech active)

C9 Scott Free Apr 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

No worries.

I don't have a problem with him being weak to certain characters. But at present, he simply can't fight a large stable of characters mid-to-late- game. He simply can't generate enough threat to meaningfully deal with these characters.

Certainly, riot might not have an issue with this. But from my perspective, it's absolutely boring to play as. You're completely reliant on your team's primary engage or putting your ult on a long cooldown to (maybe) snipe someone about to exit your range. Which is a shame, because I love the core of the champion (the stars, the EQ combo, the range/rotational speed amp on W).

I feel like he's another Bard in that he isn't solo queue friendly but if you run a dynamic or you see him in pro play he's gonna be a monster. Yeah he's gonna suck if your ADC is bad but I played a few games on him and I felt like I wasn't a true carry but rather a distraction or clean up boss. And playing him on an ARAM made me feel like when you get ROA rylais you can just focus on keeping your aDC alive and have constant control over where people go or thats how he's supposed to be anyway. As in based on my experience. But team champions are always less fun to play because randoms are hard to synergize with.

NotSoEvilDeadApr 9, 20161 votes

I generally agree with that assessment. I guess all I can really say beyond that, is they're positioning him as a mid mage. Not having the damage to impact tanks (even with rylais/roa/liandry's) feels very... unsatisfying.

I won't be that surprised when we start seeing him outside of mid lane, to be honest. He's a decent offtank with a ton of utility.

C9 Scott Free Apr 9, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I generally agree with that assessment. I guess all I can really say beyond that, is they're positioning him as a mid mage. Not having the damage to impact tanks (even with rylais/roa/liandry's) feels very... unsatisfying.

I won't be that surprised when we start seeing him outside of mid lane, to be honest. He's a decent offtank with a ton of utility.

I didn't bother with Liandries. The burn isn't worth it IMO. I did ROA Scepter death cap hourglass and void

Troy242621Apr 1, 20161 votes

{quoted}

There's certainly some learning to play against him going on. So far from what we've seen though, and this is a pattern that's been true of every past champion release with at least a moderate learning curve, learning to play as has a steeper curve than playing against.

We are trying to avoid overnerfing here, discussion here today was on whether we should be nerfing additional parts of his kit at this point or going for these changes and then reassessing.

I wish every new champion didn't have a novella as a skill description. >.>.

CrossetteMar 30, 20161 votes

To be honest, there was no clarity about the massive growth of Aurelion's Q.

I've seen people that play every day have absolutely no idea how his Q works. Also, I feel like the lane-engulfing engage was never explained to me either. The people that manage that in my games have literally annihilated the game.

ABlueQuakerMar 30, 20163 votes

And you don't think that the increased success could have anything to do with players' unfamiliarity with playing into him?

DropFillMar 30, 20162 votes

{quoted}

People aren't complaining about him and at present there are a lot of people still figuring him out. We're seeing players with a moderate number of games under their belts perform quite a bit better than appropriate though so we're trimming a bit of power off him.

Interesting. But why took so long for zed to get nerfs, and even those pbe nerfs are actually love taps? Aurelion sol damage is low compared to most mid laners, and utility is pretty much his thing with Q. He is not OP by any means

Big LincolnMar 29, 20168 votes

Many people are hilariously wrong in their assumption.

Good Aurelions have been wrecking shop with him and his beefed-up Anivia Q was, in all fairness, too strong for how low the CD was even without CDR.

These are fairly forgiving nerfs, too, though I lament the nerf to his ult.

EvewynnMar 29, 20164 votes

To be fair it is less of a nerf than it seems. The change from decaying slow to a static slow is a nice compensation. The nerf to his q definitely hits a lot harder in my opinion.

Considering the bulk of his damage is hard to hit against mobile targets, the reduction to his CC will hit him very hard in every aspect from solo laning, to roams, to initiations, as well as support.

DropFillMar 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i9J9gnvE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-03-29T22:05:21.895+0000)

Many people are hilariously wrong in their assumption.

Good Aurelions have been wrecking shop with him and his beefed-up Anivia Q was, in all fairness, too strong for how low the CD was even without CDR.

These are fairly forgiving nerfs, too, though I lament the nerf to his ult.

10 CD on your primary ability is high, since he doesn't buy cdr at all. Telegraphed ability that needs time to increase its potential and relies on another ability seems pretty balanced to me, since his E has a fucking 60s cd

MadraMar 29, 20163 votes

The fact that Sol even shipped with a 2.0 second AoE stun on a 10 to 6 second cooldown is a perfect example of how hilariously bad Riot's balancing team is at their job.

EyesOfTheFoxMar 30, 20161 votes

A lot of champions have stuns on low cool downs. The problem I have is, that his stun actually lasts longer than Annie's, whom most people complain as the "worst to play against" stun. 2 seconds is a long time in this game, especially with the high amount of burst damage available to multiple champions. Stuns in this game feel like guaranteed kills, no team comp should be without one.

MysticDreams12Mar 30, 20162 votes

Good. He needs nerfs.

ShahamutMar 30, 20162 votes

I absolutely decimate this champion when I play against him. I also do fairly decent (I think?) when I play as him. His weaknesses are huge, and I figured thats why he has such strong cc, kind of a reward for playing around all the champions that counter him. :/

In any case, I hope that when things settle down, they find out that Aurelion is actually too weak. If not, thats fine, but RIOT won't turn a blind eye if they end up being wrong.

Seriously though, EVERY popular mid lane pick absolutely dumps on this guy :P He is at best a niche pick top/jungle. Them ganks are awesome if you can set them up, but its tough. I feel his damage is just too little early to have any good lane matchups that are not against non-mobile melees. And if they are going to keep the execute damage, it needs to be buffed, so tired of missing minions because it didnt execute. Buff it by 5 per rank in W or something.

NotSoEvilDeadMar 30, 20161 votes

Agreed on essentially all counts. I don't understand the purpose of "executes minions below 25 hp" on his stars. It either needs to scale up with something or be removed.

Beyond that, I honestly don't see how they thought he was a mid champion. Stars can only reliably damage champions with even worse MS than you have, which is a fairly small subset of champions that are, generally speaking, well-suited to just CCing you and blowing you up (lux, ahri, etc)...

OurLestradeMar 30, 20162 votes

Remember when they buffed the new Fiora on release?

Communist ToastMar 30, 20161 votes

where is the nerf stated? I want to read it.

the only thing I could think of nerfing is his Q in it's size growth

ArcticSiriusMar 30, 20161 votes

Check surrender@20

Communist ToastMar 30, 20161 votes

yea I found it. it doesn't really sound like a nerf imo. they are changing the length of the stun from 2 sec to 1.5 at max rank and changing his slow % on his ult. but his damage will still be the same. all in all I don't think it's really that bad and understandable nerf

Linna ExcelMar 30, 20161 votes

I dunno, he's pretty strong as a jungler.

Communist ToastMar 30, 20162 votes

is he? I have found him extremely weak as a jungle early on in the levels (having to back way before I do on yi, udyr, or my other jungles) he has a gank advantage but he can do that basically anywhere since his E

He is a much better mid/top imo

the Anarchit3chtMar 30, 20161 votes

Personally I find ASol to be REALLY strong. So much so that when I am actually getting my damage in, it surprises me. The issue I think isn't that he is weak, its that his damage comes from his stars, something that you have much less direct control over as opposed to basically any other champion. Which makes him seem weak because unless you can position yourself so that your stars are hitting them(which is hard to do against many champs) he gets blown up. I find that he struggles in lane due to this fact, but absolutely WRECKS in team fights where things are a bit more chaotic and people can't simply focus on staying away from his stars. If you stun someone with a max range stun, they are in the zone to be hit by empowered stars and you'll hurt em bad.

Granted I'm bronze 2 and only played like 1 game with him so please just ignore everything I said.

N00B PWN3RMar 30, 20161 votes

Aurelion Sol is a toxic stunlocking champion, such champions are unhealthy for a game like league. I called it before he was released, he will get nerfed in weeks, his stun is too strong.

SilvenMar 30, 20161 votes

It's a shame they're taking away some of the more reliant damage he has access to. Juggling those stars around a messy 5v5 teamfight is a real feat and really difficult to pull off unless your team's just rooting everyone in space, in which case it's almost too easy.

90% of the time, your best bet is to engage with a big Q, get a few star-hits off while they're stunned and then finish them off with your ult before they turn on you, get in your safety zones and take it out on you.

Least that's how I tend to do it. More or less successfully. Need to practice that champ either way.

VivaLaKittenApr 1, 20161 votes

Aurelion Sol is very Overpowered and at the same time, unbelievably weak. He does extremely well against non melee champions, but when people get close to him he doesn't really stand a chance. Overall I don't find him in need of any changes

OleandervineApr 1, 20161 votes

I like him conceptually, and for the most part in play; That said, I feel that once he's rushed, he's dead. He has very little chance of getting someone away from him once he's rushed, because there's absolutely no way to burst down enemies or reliably make the stars damage them short of hoping you stun and/or ulting them away from you. When he relies so heavily on his ult just to avoid death, I'd say he needs some tweaking. What I would like to see would be a change to W. Instead of W just shoving the stars out to his max orbital, I'd rather them all take a wide, erratic, atomic style of orbit that crosses through Sol himself so that you can have some way to damage people who get in close.

RodeeRunnerOct 17, 2016

As an Aurelion Sol main i am saying this. That after the nerf i dont feel like i can hang in the game anymore. He is not doing enought damage to be felt. I have playd him sinse he came out and is really looking for a new champion to play now because Aurelion is really not worth playing anymore.