I like the Zilean changes.. anyone else?

TaoistMaster·Feb 28, 2015·76 votes·5,355 views

skill shot is more fun. landing a stun is more satisfying than his old kit.

it is nice not having to spam W's after every ult.

86 Comments

OleandervineFeb 28, 201557 votes

I think it's a lot of fun, but it does need a tweak or two. I think the prioritization of chucking the bombs needs to be modified; it's great that it prioritizes champs over minions, but now they need to add in a prioritization for the second bomb to land on the target with the first, overriding the champ priority. I cannot tell you how many times I've needed that stun to proc by landing on the minion with the first bomb, only to have my second bomb attach to either a new minion or a nearby champ. With a fix like this, I think it might improve him considerably.

SlowChemicalFeb 28, 20152 votes

Agreed, same issue. Some clarification here from Riot would be appreciated if they come across this.

Lovely PantsFeb 28, 20153 votes

Yeah, full agreement here. I think it's already risky enough to pull off the double bomb. At the very least, the bomb should detonate if it lands on a unit within a close radius of the original.

YouLostMeMar 1, 20154 votes

It's supposed to be like this already. I think the problem is that the bomb search radius is too small so it feels like the targeting system isn't working.

Kitten of EvilFeb 28, 201528 votes

I like the new bombs, but I think W is pointless now. Q may as well just have 2 charges, and W can be replaced with something useful. Its main point on old Zilean was to reduce his ult and to double-bomb. Now that it is only used for double-bomb, it's kind of pointless.

Lovely PantsFeb 28, 20157 votes

I think the reason it is on his kit remains intact. It was never interesting to me to constantly be spamming his w later in the game to speed up his ultimate cooldown. The strategic choice between double bombing or granting two speed boosts, on the other hand, feels very valuable to me.

B1naryB0tFeb 28, 20155 votes

You can do both, E/Q > E/Q > W > E/Q > E/Q. It still reduces both CDs so it's not like there's much choice when you can easily have both.

Lovely PantsFeb 28, 20153 votes

You can, but it's often not vary advantageous to use both at the same time. Consider a Zilean speeding across the battlefield to attempt to ult a dying ally, for example. If you use that Rewind to get there in the shortest amount of time, you're not going to have the double bomb available when you get there. Likewise, you can't afford to constantly waste mana on double boosting all of the time when you are trying to create plays or land harass with your bombs.

If you do use both at the same time, you've also created a window in which you are largely useless in exchange for that power. The choice of when to use rewind creates very important highs and lows in Zilean's gameplay.

DfenestratorMar 1, 20153 votes

I agree with you a bit. I like the idea of his W (because it can allow a champion to achieve more than 40% max CDR) but it's not a very interesting spell when it's attached to Zilean's kit as it currently exists. I wish they would remove it, if for no other reason than for the fact that it allows them to use it in another kit where it could have more interesting gameplay decisions and interactions.

Kitten of EvilMar 1, 20151 votes

They won't change it because it's iconic Zilean, but effectively its only purpose now is to double-Q. Double-E is possible too, but I frankly haven't found it necessary in many situations. If people are playing intelligently, you usually only need to E one person.

DfenestratorMar 1, 20152 votes

It is iconic to Zilean, which is a bit unfortunate because Zilean's identity revolves around his gameplay patterns and his ultimate, which really restricts any reworks and kits that try to really explore his W.

His W could do so many interesting things, especially on a champion with a low cd ult or a 'no ult' kit (a la Udyr, Karma, etc). Maybe they'll include the concept of a >40% cdr champion on a future kit under a different theme.

DomainSpecificFeb 28, 201510 votes

It's weird. I find him weaker (less dmg on Q, R on higher CD late game due to W not working on it, E less useful, less AA range), but also more fun to play. I still prefer the new one, and I just hope Riot gives him a small small buff.

Mandang0Feb 28, 201510 votes

It's fun, but double bomb seems really difficult now (delayed skillshot whose depth you need to get right too).

StephenizgodFeb 28, 20157 votes

I think the bombs need to stick faster, i was Soraka and a Zilean hit me straight up with the bomb and i just walked away and didnt stick to me. He never hit me with a single bomb all game despite landing them right on top or directly next to me :(. Im a Zilean player and that really made me worry.

Kitten of EvilFeb 28, 20153 votes

Yeah, as someone who's been on the other side as a Zilean, it's really damn frustrating. I'll see the bomb land on the enemy but for some reason it doesn't stick immediately.

StephenizgodMar 1, 20151 votes

just played a game as Zilean and i hate him... the new zilean is garbage lol anyone with half a brain can just move out of the way of the second bomb once they know its coming...

TaoistMasterMar 1, 20152 votes

{quoted}

just played a game as Zilean and i hate him... the new zilean is garbage lol anyone with half a brain can just move out of the way of the second bomb once they know its coming...

just dodge the spear.

StephenizgodMar 1, 20151 votes

Lol

KaineMar 1, 20156 votes

The Bombs Are Stupid.

I do NOT mean that they were a bad choice, I mean they are unable to make decisions I would make.

For example, if I have a target that already has a bomb on it in the area of the second bombs cast radius THAT IS THE TARGET I WANT IT TO HIT, NO EXCEPTIONS.

Currently it might go on another champion, or it might work and well, if you were counting on that stun good luck.

The bombs should have a special interaction, like an AOE slow, if two bombs are triggered but not on the same champion as well. NOTHING was more satisfying than having two fleeing enemies kill each other, and if they robber the damage to do that they should compensate with something else.

TaoistMasterFeb 28, 20155 votes

Double bomb stun in a teamfight pretty much wins the teamfight everytime i land one.

Rinky DinkyFeb 28, 20153 votes

I love it.

The concept at least.

I find the bombs to be VERY hard to land, let alone chain together

The stun is very much worth it tho

Shits huge

Blue Moon WolfFeb 28, 20153 votes

Zilean I knew my new kit would go over well, just wait for that LeeSin nerf next seaso- OOPS, said to much.

Kitten of EvilMar 1, 20153 votes

I saw LeeSin 's death. It looked very painful!

LuciferMar 1, 20153 votes

{quoted}

skill shot is more fun. landing a stun is more satisfying than his old kit.

it is nice not having to spam W's after every ult.

I agree. The changes were overall a good thing, and they definitely moved his kit in the right direction gameplay wise. I think now it's just a matter of number buffs.

Deep Terror NamiFeb 28, 20152 votes

He's a hell of a lot more fun, and the utility a ground targeted bomb brings probably pushes him up a tier in the Support role. Less damage and not so easy to hit the bombs now, so less powerful in mid, but I still think this is good for him overall.

Astral ZephyroroFeb 28, 20152 votes

I love the changes, The stuns from the bombs on top of that slow definitely ramp him up a level in my opinion. Granted he is still out classed as a support but definitely a fun pick for a casual game.

BakedLotionFeb 28, 20152 votes

I wish the bombs didnt even attach to minions Now he cant waveclear for shit because it either attaches to the melee minions or the caster

Lovely PantsFeb 28, 20154 votes

Clearly the answer is to always run into the minion wave like and double bomb yourself like a madman.

The changes do pretty clearly make things more difficult for Zilean when played mid.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20153 votes

KAMIKAZE ZILEAN IS ON THE WAY!!! . . . . Zilean "I knew you would do that, you doofus."

Lovely PantsFeb 28, 20152 votes

Hm...seriously though, if I get Zilean in an ARAM with one of those all squishy teams, I'm totally playing him as a full tank dive bombing stun master on wheels.

TonyTonyMordecaiFeb 28, 20152 votes

That would be freaking hilarious! I wanted to try Zilean jungle because of how if he hides in the fog of war, he could double bomb someone, stun the entire enemy team, steal the objective, and run out without even needing his ultimate to survive.

AcolarhFeb 28, 20152 votes

I basically agree with the other commenters here. The changes make him more fun to play as and against, but he could use a few tweaks still.

Like others mentioned, the Q is hard to double bomb. Could be fixed by making the second bomb prioritize bombed targets.

I also think for how little use W is now compared to before, it should scale in mana cost, or just cost less in general. It costs a whopping amount of mana to double bomb enemies while laning. Compared to other supports the cost is crazy high, and it's also much less reliable currently to land. Maybe setting the cost down to 25 or so early and having it scale up to 50 later would help with that (or set it down to 35 flat, or some such thing). He's still a mana hog if you're using all his spells, which you kinda need to be since he doesn't do anything else.

Love his E changes personally. It feels more impactful and the fact that it costs so much less lets me feel better about using it more often.

R changes are fine, yea it got nerfed, but in an acceptable way in my opinion.

Just a few tweaks, mostly to his Q would make me happy.

Auz the RipperFeb 28, 20152 votes

I'm not partically fond of the Q animation

When they said it was going to be a skillshot, I honestly thought it was going to be a linear "Timebomb-Hadouken", complete with zilean screaming three syllable gibberish in broken English

I was pretty disappointed

Though, other than that and the timebomb's priorities, it's pretty fun

Doctor DymentMar 1, 20152 votes

I do enjoy new Zilean. His instant "click-bomb" damage has been replaced with incredible zoning potential. I must admit, it is a bit harder to play with him... (especially against that BITCH Kalista...) But I enjoy the changes.

ZarxisMar 1, 20151 votes

I'd like to get rid of W entirely. Riot realized that jamming W to reset your ult was a useless "minigame"— forcing Zilean to use 3 abilities to execute his 2-part combo is also an annoying minigame that costs a ton of mana (and it's much less reliable, now). Of course, we'd have to input a charge system on his Q to allow the double-bomb combo (or maybe his new W could make the bomb do more damage and stun? I don't know)... I understand the nerfing of his E's range (have to get close to use it offensively, but it's not difficult to buff yourself or your allies), but it would be nice to have 600 range autoattacks again, especially if you use Lich Bane to get more power out of your AP. I'd like to give him an entirely new ability for his W, and, as a mid Zilean player, I'd prefer that it has damage and an AP ratio. He can afford to lose some damage on Q or perhaps gain some CD on his ultimate in exchange for the extra power. Maybe Riot will give him an even better/bigger rework when he's visually updated this year... If they don't forget him again.

Lovely PantsMar 1, 20151 votes

This seems to be a popular idea in this thread, but I'm wondering how you think Zilean can afford having another high impact ability on his W with what he currently has on his kit.

Or, perhaps more directly, I'm confused about why his current W doesn't qualify as a high-impact spell already to so many people. How does it not already satisfy the task of making the bomb do more damage and stun that you suggest, for example?

I'm coming to this problem from the mindset of someone who much prefers the support role, so maybe you have this view instead of mine: Would you rather get rid of the stun entirely to grant him more sustained damage? He can't have both with his power budget as it is.

ZarxisMar 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i5U8KAkE,comment-id=00260000,timestamp=2015-03-01T13:53:19.462+0000)

This seems to be a popular idea in this thread, but I'm wondering how you think Zilean can afford having another high impact ability on his W with what he currently has on his kit.

Or, perhaps more directly, I'm confused about why his current W doesn't qualify as a high-impact spell already to so many people. How does it not already satisfy the task of making the bomb do more damage and stun that you suggest, for example?

I'm coming to this problem from the mindset of someone who much prefers the support role, so maybe you have this view instead of mine: Would you rather get rid of the stun entirely to grant him more sustained damage? He can't have both with his power budget as it is.

I already mentioned that the new W could be used in combination with Q to cause a stun/more damage, as a replacement for the old double-bombo-combo. The current W does nothing beyond reducing Zilean's Q and E cooldowns. That's about as interesting as Warwick's W, except it doesn't actually do anything directly. A more dynamic spell in the W slot would make Zilly more interesting, to say the least. To relate to you as a support player, I ask you to think of Zyra. Her W is a temporary ward (possibly a reveal) if used alone. It's better if used in combination with her Q or E because of the plants, but it does something on its own. If Zyra's W didn't provide any vision, Zyra would likely never place it if she wasn't going to use her Q or E, and it would go to waste if she didn't use the seedlings immediately.

I understand that it would probably be necessary to nerf Zilean in some way in order to give him another damaging ability, but I think it would improve him in terms of general viability and fun without making him broken.

Lovely PantsMar 2, 20151 votes

I'm not sure I understand what you think would be improved by making W a self-sufficient button. Let me try to clarify our understanding here.

Are you arguing that Zilean doesn't have enough options as a champion already and that the benefits his W grants should be shifted directly into his other abilities?

If you are, I can't agree. Zilean is already chock full of dynamic play. Granting two strong speed boosts or slows to different units offers an insane amount of possible battlefield control decisions to be made with potent strategic consequences. With the rework adding on an aoe stun, adding any more impactful options past that to a champion whose big-ticket trick is reversing a death strikes me as asking for a severely overloaded balance mess.

You have to consider how potent Zilean's new AOE stun is. It's nearly as powerful as an Amumu ultimate if Zilean is allowed to execute it. Granted, in the present state the stun is very difficult to land properly. However, I cannot imagine that Riot will leave it in the currently frustrating situation of the bomb targeting. Once quality of life changes are made on the targeting, the reliability of landing the stun will amp up considerably. Reliable ranged damage cannot coexist with that effect on a champion who also has Zilean's ultimate.

Let's step away from balance concerns for a moment and approach our argument from the more basic design points I think we are not seeing eye to eye on.

The existence of Zilean's W in its current form is not to make him stronger as a champion. In fact, it is the opposite. It is an intentional limiter on his kit which forces him to make certain choices and forces his abilities to be executed at a specific cadence. It is similar to any skill which grants a short window of stat boosts. You could just add those stats passively to the champion, but you don't want them to have constant access to them. You want them to choose when to make the most out of those stats.

My fear is that in an attempt to make W a dynamic button in its own right, you would make Zilean's kit as a whole lose its dynamic nature and feel just the same as the majority of mage champions.

ZarxisMar 2, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lovely Pants,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i5U8KAkE,comment-id=0026000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-02T07:10:22.211+0000)

snip

You do realize that all other champions have four dynamic abilities, minus the few that have true passives in their non-passive slots? Zilean's W simply serves to enable his double-bomb combo and make his E have a reasonable cooldown. It used to be necessary for his ultimate to have a decent cooldown— to make Zilean viable, really. Now that W doesn't do that (R simply has a low cooldown), it's even less interesting/dynamic. Zilean does have his high points, but he is held back by having an extra button to press for something that could be done with one. You could make the argument that Heimerdinger's ultimate does the same thing, but it has a longer cooldown (you aren't using it practically every time it comes up), requires more decision-making (which ultimate to use), and is more dynamic/fun (which option will Heimer use in a given situation). Again, Zilean's W is just a gate (a hefty mana-based one) for his Q, and nothing more than a way to balance his E. His Q and E have fairly long cooldowns because of his W; giving him a new W would allow for more tactical playmaking and perhaps decrease Zilean's mana issues (many newer Zilean players, even during the days of Athene's providing extremely strong mana regen, opted for Clarity over Ignite or Exhaust). Most champions have 4 ways to dynamically influence the game; many have even more. I don't see why Zilean players should have to track two separate cooldowns for their basic abilities— it adds practically nothing to Zilean's identity (especially now that it doesn't work on his ultimate), it's a button that basically does nothing, it's a chunk of mana that you really don't want to have to spend... As you stated yourself, the stun is very difficult to land properly. The Q itself is difficult to land properly, and you get a very limited amount of control over when/where that AOE stun/damage will be (unless you land a double Q— extreme difficulty, especially with so many mobile champions around). There may be balance issues in the future as a result of Riot adding the sort of stun that Sejuani has as an ultimate to Zilean's basic abilities, but that's not the point. There are other, less unwieldy ways of making the rest of Zilean's kit balanced that don't require him to effectively have no W, and he could be a much more interesting champion to play as and against if he had another form of interaction. I understand your fear of Zilean losing his unique kit-identity and cadence... Which is why I mentioned the possibility of giving his Q a charge system and retaining the double-bomb combo that you're used to. His W could help him resonate more with his identity as a time mage by allowing him to do something more dynamic than simply reducing the cooldowns of his Q and E. Think of the champions with innate CDR, like Zyra and Ryze... They do it passively because it's not fun to have to manually change them every time you want to use your other abilities with a reduced cooldown. It's an awkward, dull, costly mechanic that isn't necessary to retain Zilean's playstyle. Imagine if Zilean could do something like Kunkka's Z Mark the Spot, from DotA. Forgive me for taking something from LoL's main competitor and trying to paste it onto one of our champions, but it would work perfectly with Zilean, thematically— a time mage resetting someone's location (ally and/or enemy) after a delay. It wouldn't make him more of a homogenized mage; it would put him in a state not unlike Bard's. He'd provide more unique utility power at the cost of limited direct offense.

Again, I do acknowledge that Zilean is a difficult champion to balance, but I must repeat that him having a W that serves as a boring handicap rather than a fun asset is not a good way to fill his ability slots. There are other ways to balance out the strengths of the rest of his kit without sacrificing his identity.

Lovely PantsMar 2, 20151 votes

Here is the thing: I don't realize that all other champions have four buttons that enable them to make more dynamic actions than Zilean. I don't think that is true. How many utility-heavy mages have more options available to them than Zilean?

I'll compare Zilean to Zyra, who you mentioned earlier. She is also a utility-strong mage who I enjoy playing as a support from time to time, so I will do my best not to undersell her for the sake of stacking points in my favor.

Strictly looking at their individual combat performance:

Zilean: -Has moderate harass with his Q with windows where he can offer moderate burst. -May scout fog or brush with Q -Can unreliably apply an aoe stun, more reliable in defensive use on himself or an ally. -May speed up an ally -May slow an enemy -Reverses a death and damage on one ally with his ultimate.

Zyra: -Has good, reliable harass with her Q -Has a defensively reliable aoe root. -May scout fog or brush with W -May grant additional harass with WQ -May grant additional single-target CC with WE. -Strong burst and AOE knockup with her ultimate.

-Zyra also contributes a small amount of unreliable damage in the event that she dies in combat. I hesitate to place it into the category of meaningful actions she has access to due to its infrequency, but let's acknowledge that it is there and it adds a revenge-kill risk to champions who try to all in her.

In terms of the basic active, meaningful decisions these champions make, Zilean is not significantly outweighed in number of options. We can argue back and forth on the comparative strengths of each set of abilities, but that's a different point. If Zilean needs individual options to be stronger, that's one thing. I don't see that granting him additional options is beneficial.

Let me more specifically state that I think all that Zilean currently needs to be a strong, perfectly viable pick is to give quality of life buffs to the reliability of his bomb placement. He will continue to be a more niche pick who depends greatly on the combination of his abilities with ally champion picks.

I can come back when I have more time to argue about the value of keeping W in his gameplay, but right now I'm going to have to focus down on my confidence that Zilean does not benefit from another lever added to his balance issues for the sake of strategic power.

L7xLoTekMar 1, 20151 votes

Yup, good job Riot, you did good :)

TaoistMasterMar 1, 20151 votes

Been playing a lot of Zilean this weekend.

Land one double stun early, and people will fear you. The zoning bott lane he has is so fun. Control the bushes, harrass adc, and you can all in like nobody's business with a good double bomb.

It is hard to trade mid lane. Bombs are easy to dodge for a lot of champs.

I had a match up against kat. I thought, sweet, i can double bomb stun her during her ult. She couldnt kill me, but she was able to dodge a lot of bombs and still land her abilities and was able to out farm and roam.

Zilean is a support now. And I am ok with that because he is so fun and so strong.

HE TAKES SKILL NOW. so much more skill than before.

having a blast, thank you rito!

OperationDEEZ1Mar 1, 20151 votes

Well at least Riot did something right for a change.

TaoistMasterMar 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Well at least Riot did something right for a change.

get that negativity out of my thread.

riot has been giving me a free to play game for years. they have constantly been updating it, giving us more champions to play, skins, and much more.

they don't need passive aggressive and negative comments. They don't deserve them either.

anyway to stay on point, yes I feel these were the right changes.

JamenerMar 1, 20151 votes

Edit: After putting in a few more hours and looking at Zilean from a different angle, I actually think he's alright. Not the best support, but he sure is fun once you get the hang of him.

Zilean isn't supposed to do damage as a support. What he really brings to the table is utility. This is why so many people have been maxing Q and been dissapointed. Maxing either Q or E first increases his mana costs. Maxing W however does not and it puts all of his kit's utility on a lower CD. The skill order I've been using to much success is R>W>Q>E.

Zilean plays a lot like Janna, but with a bit more poke. Your job as support Zilean is just to keep your adc alive with that awesome stun. It doesn't matter that your bombs don't do damage. By keeping it at level 1, it only costs 60 mana. This lets you spam it pretty often after getting some basic support mana regen items. The enemy won't care about your damage, but they will care about that stun. You should still try to land those bombs on them and if they don't show you respect by backing off, drop a slow and a follow up bomb. At 20% CD, which isn't too hard to get as support, Zilean can do this every 5 seconds. It's incredible for zoning and peeling. Once you get good at landing your stuns your lane will be easy to gank for your jungler. A slow is extremely helpful with this and since you're maxing W you can get 2 slows which is 5 seconds of CC in one fight.

It's in the right direction, but I don't like them right now. Mana costs way too high, Q is way too unreliable and does underwhelming damage. They need to increase the missile speed and have the 2nd bomb prioritize targets with bombs already on them.

DukargMar 1, 20151 votes

they need to ditch the W and just make that a stun. Doubling up on bombs is way too unreliable. Especially for the fact that if you really want to trap someone in place you have to go through a full skill rotation to get that stun off unless your tossing them on allies.

TaoistMasterMar 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

they need to ditch the W and just make that a stun. Doubling up on bombs is way too unreliable. Especially for the fact that if you really want to trap someone in place you have to go through a full skill rotation to get that stun off unless your tossing them on allies.

just practice..

there are ways to get the double stun off.

it works really great if you use it as follow up.

imagine ashe and zilean.

ashe W's and slows an enemy.

zilean applys his slow on that enemy and throws a bomb. he presses W and moves with the enemy,

since the enemy is slowed, landing the double bomb should be easy since you have closed the gap and have a good idea where the enemy is heading.

having one on the back of a minion wave, and waiting for the adc to come in range of it and quickly double bomb that minion... can be a really sneaky way to land the stun.

often you want to just throw one at a time... if one sticks to their adc try to land another one if you are in range and have the mana.

PhanronMar 1, 20151 votes

I'm new to Zilean and only picked him up after his rework. He is very fun. However something with his laning is strange to me. I have a rather high succes rate when it comes to hitting ONE bomb. But honestly that doesnt seem to be a big deal for the enemy. The poke is nice but its not on the level old Zilean used to be, when he just forced you out off lane with his ridiculous base damage.

On the other hand, attempting the double bomb is a) really hard to hit and b) super mana consuming. It takes 210+ mana for a q - w - q combo. (He has like ~400 Mana at level 1) It only seems to be efficient when you attempt an all in and spend another 50 Mana to slow the enemy first.

After laning however Zilean becomes godly. He can lock down an enemy really long: Slow with e, double bomb a 1,5 sec stun, then slow again. So fun. Also having Frostqueen makes it really easy to hit those double bombs. I once engaged a teamfight like this and felt GLORIOUS.

Davids UploaderMar 2, 20151 votes

I like the new Zilean changes, it's just going to get some getting used to dealing with Q having both a cast time AND a travel time because it's still a little wonky to me. Other then that, Zilean has been restored as the best hider in Hide & Seek (custom game mode played on Crystal Scar, for those who aren't aware)!