Boards›Gameplay

The real problem with Senna ADC is her SUPPORTS.

Illabethe··14 votes·7,560 views

I don't know how many people are looking beyond impulsive win/ban/pick rate stats, but there's a glaring stat available on U.GG that speaks volumes as to what's actually wrong with Bot lane, and in fact..... many post 50% adcs:

https://u.gg/lol/duo-tier-list/

Duo tier calculates the win rates based upon a specific champion comp. Order by Win rate, and the top 6 responses are Senna as adc.

However..... Look at the supports she's teamed with:

Nautilus Leona Morgana Pyke Thresh Lux

And...... then you scan down the list for other Senna adc comps....... and you FINE NONE.

Somehow, Senna only has 6 tracked support combos, and none of them are Yuumi Nami Lulu Karma Sona Soraka etc etc.

#They are Hard CC Supports, and primarily 2 specific supports: Leona Nautilus

Other than a Zyra/Jhin duo and an Ashe/Brand duo, Every single combo breaking a 55% win rate is either Senna or Nautilus or both.

Something else that should catch your eye: A lot of these duos are holding a 70% + Ban rate.

Part of that is attributable to Senna's own ban rate, but part of it is the fact people are banning these supports too. Nautilus 33.2% Ban Rate Leona 17.4% Ban Rate Morgana 43.2% Ban Rate Pyke 18.3% Ban Rate Thresh 9.8% Ban Rate

If you add up the pick rates for these supports, they make up literally 1/2 of Senna's active ADC games

Now...... Who are Senna's biggest counters? Leona Nautilus Blitzcrank are three of them.

In other words, Senna's in a unique position where all her winning duos are composed of her own counters, so that they can't counter her.

#But then you look down the list.... and Nautilus is the strongest duo for at least 12 adcs. Leona for 11.

#Has any of you considered that the primary difference between Support Senna and Adc Senna..... is the availability of a hard CC Support?

39 Comments

WoonStruck14 votes

Okay, if the problem with Senna is her supports, why doesn't every ADC have her winrate?

Hook supports have gained notoriety for a reason. They do well vs all ADCs.

And if Senna can only be stopped by 3 or 4 supports, which you basically keep claiming...that kinda says she needs nerfs.

Radiant Wukong2 votes

{quoted}

Okay, if the problem with Senna is her supports, why doesn't every ADC have her winrate?

Hook supports have gained notoriety for a reason. They do well vs all ADCs.

And if Senna can only be stopped by 3 or 4 supports...that kinda says she needs nerfs.

Beat me to it. I was going to word it well so that's a good thing.

Sirsir5 votes

Senna can give her engage supports sustain. That's a BIG deal.

Some time ago Leona's Hp5 was nerfed slightly and it was enough to dethrone her.

Illabethe1 votes

They do. WHEN THEY ARE WITH THOSE SUPPORTS.

https://u.gg/lol/duo-tier-list/?rank=overall

Rank by Duo win rate. Jhin is all over the top of the list too.

NaughtyWord1 votes

{quoted}

Okay, if the problem with Senna is her supports, why doesn't every ADC have her winrate?

Hook supports have gained notoriety for a reason. They do well vs all ADCs.

And if Senna can only be stopped by 3 or 4 supports, which you basically keep claiming...that kinda says she needs nerfs.

This bears repeating, so I am quoting it in all its beautiful poetry.

God bless you beautiful bastard.

Vlada Cut9 votes

No, Adc Senna's biggest issue is that she has built in sustain that actual adc's aren't supposed to and don't have.

Healing AND Shielding, that's too much even for Kai'Sa.

Oh, and did I forget she has same DPS as Jhin and Graves, but has twice the sustain types than them WHILE THEY HAVE NONE DAMN IT.

FakeGravity1 votes

make her heal scale only with AP or with mist and the damage with AD now she have to sacrifice healing for damage when going adc and you can make her build AP support items to let her have strong heals. maybe even make the mist give adaptive stats that can separate her damage from her utility? if she build AP give her healing and shielding

Illabethe1 votes

She doesn't have even close to Jhin's dps lmfao. Nor Graves. Neither gets damage nerfed. Both get BUFFED.

The sustain is to compensate for the fact she has permanently nerfed damage, attack speed,

Chembaron Yamada5 votes

No, that is not "the real problem".

Any ADC with hard CC does well with these supports, since they can chain them together to create easy kills. Like how Caitlyn can place traps under CCed enemies for her powerful combo, how Jinx can place her chompers to extend the CC, and so on. Senna also can use her root on a CCed target to keep them in place.

Senna specifically then gives additional safety to these supports, since she can heal them with her Q during the all in. Don't forget that 4 of the 6 supports you mentioned here lost a source of sustain, since the relic shield line doesn't heal anymore. Senna can compensate for that.

I know you like Senna. But the data clearly shows that she is a problem and needs some nerfs.

Illabethe2 votes

You do realize those synergies are pulling off the same win rates she is, when they are played? The difference is soley in the ban rate. Because Senna is banned 59% of the time, and half of her active games have Naut/Leona, they literally dictate HER win rate. If she wasn't banned all the time, she'd have a higher accountance of other supports, because sometimes her hard CC supports would be banned more, and she would have weaker lane synergies.

The data shows she is in line with Support, and out of line with adc. I can pull the same gold as Support as I get from Adc, so that's not the problem. The other difference is specifically the support pairings.

It'd be different if Support was 54% and adc was 54%. That'd imply that she needs a nerf.

Thorn Fierce Red4 votes

Senna vs Pyke

Both huge damage and support.

5 Dollar Holler1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thorn Fierce Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4I6yERO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-30T15:39:40.323+0000)

Senna vs Pyke

Both huge damage and support.

Not the same category. I don't think I've ever seen a Pyke in position 1. He's melee, after all, which is a huge disadvantage for non-tanks generally in lane.

Senna is pretty broken, I suspect she'll get a considerable nerf before Season 10 begins.

Illabethe1 votes

Pyke has had at least 4 positions go over 55% Win rate.

P.S. contrary to Thorn, Pyke doesn't and never has actually posted "Huge damage"

G0blinSlay3r1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Thorn Fierce Red,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i4I6yERO,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-30T15:39:40.323+0000)

Senna vs Pyke

Both huge damage and support.

neither of those are supports. they are trash panda taco's. No time to even watch anyone play these. it's a joke... the worst joke ever.

GankLord3 votes

I love how you will defend this champion with your dying breath when she's a problem in herself. More power to you. I can agree with you with the support argument but that's not why Senna is an issue. You can apply this argument to any adc.

Illabethe1 votes

If she was a problem, her support win rate would be high too. By saying she's a problem, you're completely ignoring champs who both have a higher win rate than her but also have 10-14 more duo statuses that perform better than her, especially Nautilus, who are consistently impacting adc win rates, and carrying the largest synergies in the game.

The only reason Jhin or Caitlyn doesn't look "Broken" in win rate stats as adc, is because they aren't banned, and which results in a larger sample size of supports being played with them. 47.2% of Senna Adc's games are played with the same 6 supports.

But if you look at these same supports on Caitlyn or Jhin, they are pulling almost the same win rates as they do on Senna. In other words, their strengths TRANSFER.

It's just that instead of 8-9% Pick rate Nautilus with Senna, Nautilus + Jhin is sitting at 2.4% Pick rate, and Jhin isn't actively getting banned. This results in Senna's Pick rate with Nautilus having a greater impact on HER win rate than on Jhin.

Baby Ghoul3 votes

Both can be correct, especially in this meta.

Nautilus and Leona are broken right now, but again, that doesn't excuse Senna's absurd levels of damage and utility.

ADC Senna is a major problem, and she's mostly only viable with Nautilus and Leona, but support Senna is also a problem right now and yes her numbers do need to be toned down.

Illabethe2 votes

Except she DOESN'T have absurd levels of damage.

Someone on this thread posted a full build Senna with 155 stacks using their entire kit on a DUMMY (which dramatically boosts her passive's damage), and the output was only 4400 damage considering the 1483 extra damage her passive did. Which means she only would have done 2900 damage pre-mitigation to champions. In other words....less damage than literally every other adc at that stage in the game. At that stage in the game, Jhin can literally hit 2900 pre-mitigation from a single auto attack. In the time it took Senna to full skill, Jinx can do 3700 damage. MF's ult alone outscales that damage. Caitlyn can routinely do 4500 damage in a 3 second span.

Support Senna has a 51.43% Win rate, which is in line with Balanced supports.

Hayaishi22 votes

She just has too much in her kit. She has the ability to sustain, can follow up with her root, Senna's root is pretty much a death sentence in lane, which gives her a lot of agency that honestly she shouldn't have.

The only way to deal with senna is gutting her, her can't be balanced, as usual with Riot.

Thefrostyviking2 votes

It´s true that many of Senna´s support pairings are missing from that page but if you look at her own page on the same site and the dou's page there then there´s 33 options.

I am fairly sure her winrate´s are properly tracked overall.

And the largest problem with Senna is basically that she is a free win with one of those supports that counter her, they might need some nerfs to bring them down a notch but she definitely needs a large one too if there is no way to beat her aside from picking one of those 3.

In addition, Heimer is the best, rocket science OP:

Illabethe2 votes

If you look at her own page, no other support is over 2000-3000 games, while the ones mentioned in the Duo Queue stat are over 10,000 games. As I said, they literally make up almost half of her entire games. In other games they are banned.

Thefrostyviking1 votes

{quoted}

If you look at her own page, no other support is over 2000-3000 games, while the ones mentioned in the Duo Queue stat are over 10,000 games. As I said, they literally make up almost half of her entire games. In other games they are banned.

I mean it´s fairly ironic that you´d point out Nautilus, Leo and Blitz as problematic when Thresh has basically double the pickrate over Nautilus who has most of the trio, evidently Thresh is the go-to support when played with Senna for most and he is doing good too.

54% winrate with double the playrate, aye seems strong to me.

Then after him comes Pyke with only 500 games more than naut but admittedly 5% less winrate, but 500 games still count for things.

And in the top 10 we also have picks like Morgana (slightly better pickate than Blitz), Lux, Janna, Nami and Soraka.

.....

I mean sure, those 3 you named are really strong, but if we just look at winrates then Senna has high ones with several supports of different categories.

She even has a bleeding 56.5% winrate over 500 games with a Yasuo being her support? O_O

But overall Heimer is still the best, he only has 1/3rd of nautilus games at his 1100 but that sweet 60% winrate+gold leads do not lie.

Illabethe1 votes

Except Heimerdinger is also the #9 Adc in the game right now, with a win rate standalone almost the same as Senna.

In other words, you're pointing out a pairing of two 53+% champs playing the same role.

Many of Senna's successful Support pairings are ALSO 52+% Adcs.

Fuhrer Usagi2 votes

Wrong. The problem is that she can cancel her attack animations to do 6 attacks in 3 seconds max attack speed characters can do 5 attacks in 2 seconds. She can attack almost as fast as someone building only AS: Just watch this no attack speed

The problem is that she can extend her Q through minions to poke and kill someone longer than her actual 600 starting range meaning she can poke someone outside turret range https://www.reddit.com/r/sennamains/comments/e31bzs/love_this_mechanic/

The problem is that she can do 25% of a jarvans HP with a auto attack at level 10 then poke down 3 other people outside of range even when under their turret. And her Q goes through windwall.

https://www.reddit.com/r/sennamains/comments/e1uqit/pretty_nice_2v4_nothing_crazy_but_some_nice_heal/

The problem is that level 3 senna has enough speed and range to out poke and kill a brand jhin combo

https://www.reddit.com/r/sennamains/comments/e2zm8t/senna_supp/

The problem is that the champion is broken and you keep trying to make excuses for why shes not since you don't want her to be balanced and actually require some skill to use and get fed on. Like actual ADCS and supports.

Reduce her range, Sona has a short range and low HP, yet she can still get fed and bully since you can dodge skill shots. Caitlyn has range but she requires 3 AA or someone to step on her trap to hit as hard as Senna level 1.Senna has no reason to hit that hard and have that much range level 1.

Illabethe2 votes

  1. She only attacked twice, Q'd once, and R'd. And the damage only looks big because you procced a 1483 damage Current HP proc on a dummy from her passive. In reality, you just showed her kit doing about 2900 damage at 155 stacks on a full build to No Armor. Congratz.

  2. So can most mages/supports.....Lux and Morgana excel at behind minion snipes. Vel Koz even further. Caitlyn and Varus do on a regular basis.

  3. You're literally daring to argue that a 6/4/7 fed Senna with 2 items, Grasp of the Undying.... shouldn't be able to hit 207 damage vs a full AD Jarvan. (Senna had well over 240 AD by this point).

  4. You mean the fact a nub Brand and Jhin didn't even skill and overstayed at 20 % HP after almost killing Draven? (Jhin was in plenty of range to hit Senna; he just turn and ran. Brand didn't even hit her. Neither had Mana when they tried to fight. At all. Senna actually got close enough to Brand to IGNITE HIM)

Fuhrer Usagi1 votes

  1. she AA Q AA E Ult AA in 3 seconds. Not even real adcs can do that since it stops their auto attacks. Her abilities cancel her animations and the time between them so she can weave attacks into them non stop.

  2. thats bull and you know it, both Morg and Lux cant throw their Qs through enemies besides lux and even then if theres more than one then she cant. Their W and E does hardly any damage on its own compared to the shear burst Sennas Q can do. They also cannot reach as far as Senna Q because hers extends when going through minions while theirs stop flat.

  3. She was that high to begin with because they couldn't go near her without getting poked down. She does enough damage early to scale that badly. The fact that she got over 240 AD from just two items is the problem since they were only level 10. Thats more burst than even a fed adc with 2 items at that level. And check out the fight, they couldn't go in to gank her because she was out of their range and bursting them down, if they went closer they died and she was able to just kill them from under their turret and ignore wind wall.

  4. They were both over 60% the turret took brand to around 27% and he was killed by her autoing him once. At level 3... Jhin had 60% and he couldn't trade back because she was outside his attack range and was poking him down too quickly that trying to go in close to fight would of killed him. Only it didn't matter because her root and range meant she got to just auto away at him. Same with brand, he couldn't even help since she had more range than him and poked him down. No other adc or support could do that level 3, they could maybe fight them off to back off, but they would not be able to just go and fight the both of them, only she has the range and the cc to do it.

If she is going to have that much range she should not have that much utility and healing and damage. She needs either less range,less healing/shorter root, or less damage to make up for how easy and safe she is. Nevermind if you are the ADC senna you can combo your heals and shields with the support to let continously fight and wear down your lane opponent since you can heal from it all while killing the enemy. I played with Sennas before, its broken we never had to back since she would heal us to full and we kept killing the enemy botlane not because we were better. But because she would just heal us after the fight while poking them with the Q.

Every other champ who has high damage are really close range to act as a con, or don't have any healing/escapes. Even the closest champion that doesn't(caitlyn) needs people to step on her traps to do damage like that, and she cant heal or shield.

Illabethe2 votes

  1. Caitlyn can do the exact same thing. So can Jhin. And both do FAR more damage. Most adcs just don't have the kit to rely on skills, but compensate with far greater attack speeds.

  2. Lmfao you're lying. An adc with just a item 3031 and no other items hits over 460. "Only level 10"

  3. NEITHER HAD MANA and spend more time running. Brand was killed by an auto AND ignite (Auto brought him to about 80 HP, he flashed away with Ignite on Jhin literally took her W, Q head on, and didn't have a single skill to put back (He blew his Grenade at the very beginning, and his W was down). Brand blew any chance when he cast Conflagration and bottomed out his Mana.

Again. Both were running. Jhin tried 3 autos but still ran.

Madra2 votes

A player like Doinb actually managed to win worlds. That should automatically make you look at champions like Nautilus and Galio as targets that needs nerfs. Everybody knows that Nautilus is too strong and has too much CC and damage and defense and mobility.

Metal Janna1 votes

Wow I had no idea Senna ADC was actually meta now. I've supported one precisely once... We got counterpicked and she spent the whole match eating Leona hooks and then flaming me for not somehow saving her.

SheikhEleazar1 votes

Pick the odd one out:

Senna adc Pyke support Thresh mid Teemo jungle

xelaker1 votes

Short time to kill and cc is obviously gonna be a match made in heaven...

Beerstein1 votes

The problem is ADCs shouldn't have utility. Add utility to ADCs, put it with supports that have utility...GG games broken.

What makes her worse than Jinx/Cait is SHE can land the first CC (as opposed to the support) then the support can follow that up with 100% hit rate (otherwise skillshot) chain CC.

Normally ADCs follow up on support CC. With Senna, she has a safe CC that isn't reliant on the enemy doing something stupid that the support can follow up on.

...Though I should say ONE of the problems. Riot trying to create a "ranged ADC support" was just dumb.

Illabethe1 votes

Caitlyn can first CC..... she has 2..... Traps and E..... She can force an E spawn.

The thigh guy1 votes

The support picks are because those are the only playable supports atm.

Engage supports are just the only thing that works.

Illabethe1 votes

No. Enchanters work much better than engage supports right now.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

No. Enchanters work much better than engage supports right now.

Winrates and pick rates say otherwise.

Illabethe1 votes

https://u.gg/lol/tier-list?rank=overall&role=support

#1 SupportJanna #5 Support Soraka #6 Support Taric #10 Support Nami

Most of the top 10 are either Enchanters, or Mages.

Even with Nautilus' overbearing presence, he's #8, and the only vanguard in the top 10.

Madra2 votes

{quoted}

https://u.gg/lol/tier-list?rank=overall&role=support

#1 SupportJanna #5 Support Soraka #6 Support Taric #10 Support Nami

Most of the top 10 are either Enchanters, or Mages.

Even with Nautilus' overbearing presence, he's #8, and the only vanguard in the top 10.

So misleading.

Nautilus has a 25% ban rate, gets picked 3 times as much as Janna and the statistical difference between 1st and 8th is approximately 0.9 win %. With a whopping ban rate of 0.4% Janna is only picked 160,000 times compared to Nautilus 510,000 times. The only supports with more picks than Nautilus are Morgana, Senna and Thresh. The more picks a champion has, the statistical probability is to fall towards the mean. I think your post proves the opposite of what you were intending it to. Adding up the ban rate of the champions that you listed totals up to a whopping 2.1% collectively.

Illabethe1 votes

You're trying to argue that you cannot develop a statistical mean out of 196,000+ games.

Even if Nautilus is picked 2.5 times as much, Janna's still a statistically significant mean.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Illabethe

Wtf? Support items? Just wow.
Gameplay224 comments
135
votes
Can we please get Vocal Lines for the KDA skins? I would pay to have them added (like Chromas)
Gameplay15 comments
54
votes
A little miffed by one thing that complicates climbing as an All Rounder.
Gameplay33 comments
40
votes
Meddler: You want to nerf Morgana? Here's How.
Gameplay106 comments
29
votes
What's going on with Gameplay moderation today?
Gameplay48 comments
27
votes
New Akali Critique
Gameplay32 comments
27
votes