and to be mandatory again as the main damage source instead of the safe damage source
Wouldn't it be a win-win if you weren't auto targeted by every Vi and Nautilus and Poppy point clicking you into CC hell and you had a little more agency at the expense of your necessity
Ionian Vulpix20 votesBecause ADC's do nothing but damage. If they can't do that, they can do nothing else barring those with a lot of utility like Ashe and Sivir ult.
Big Lincoln4 votesnot necessarily true, there is a lot of nuance to be had even with that.
Caitlyn (should) offers safe damage, Tristana can be emphasized for tower destruction and strong pushing, Kogmaw pushed to specifically excel at shredding tank stats etc
it's not so cut and dry
Ionian Vulpix19 votesCaitlyn: Safe damage Tristana: Tower damage Kog: Tank damage Vayne: Single target damage/tank shredder Twitch: High AOE damage Draven: Draven Damage Jinx: All around damage, self peel MF: Early game damage and ult CC synergy Virus: long range damage Lucian: Early game easy damage trades Corki: Magic damage Ezreal: Long Range damage and strong safety Jhin: damage^4 Kalista: mobile damage Urgot: LoL
ADC literally stand for Attack Damage Carry. They need to do damage to be useful, again barring the outliers of Ashe and Sivir with their utility.
ShaolinToilet1 votesWhy is URGOT lol he counters most adcs
Ariel the Cruel5 votesListing Urgod's strengths would be redundant. He's a god. The very idea of comparing him to those other lowly "mortals" is just hilariously absurd. Hence, "LoL"
;p
Cremepie16 votesI too enjoy long range virus damage.
Ionian Vulpix2 votesautocorrect that I didn't notice.
Big Lincoln3 votesCaitlyn has zoning power beyond her damage Kog has stat-shredding Varus has AoE CC ult for teamfighting utility Kalista has vision + ally synergy Jhin has long range + traps for area control
ADC literally stand for Attack Damage Carry. They need to do damage to be useful, again barring the outliers of Ashe and Sivir with their utility.
And this is a good design why? You've still yet to tell me why it should be more important above almost everything else to protect my ADC or kill the enemy ADC first. Why should ADCs be the HIGHEST source of the damage and not the SAFEST in the average game?
Adriqnohee4 votesYou can't really get rid of the primary target vs primary target in LoL anyway, even if you make that ADCs aren't the highest damaging class anymore and are instead just the safer bet, there will always be someone that is going to be the primary target in the fight, that's how class based games work, if its not the highest DPS, it will be the healer (support), if its not the support it will be the tank, if not the tank, it will be the bruisers, then the mages, then back again at the ADCs, there will always have that one guy in the fight that is the focus of the game, for one reason or another, and it will in the end always come back to: kill their most important player and defend your most important player.
Knoyle5 votesHow are you gonna do any of that when you Either
spots youPlaying ADC is frustrating. PERIOD. What? So is every other role? Get in line. When is the last time you saw all 5 enemy champs pop up in your lane, dive you and take your turret before the 10 minute mark as Top, Mid or Jungle? You can Argue the support has it rougher but when you have one of the most expensive builds in the game because All you are there for is damage, getting behind is such a goddamn nightmare.
LordGeovanni1 votesthe thing is all the problems you are listing is because adcs do so much damage by themselves (and mages but thats a cooldown problem mostly) it wont be like you are used to for the past 3 seasons (and this one) but thats the dam point adcs was a more popular role when they werent get two kill snowball the lane snowball the game and other lanes had it more fair against them too when it wasnt adc saw you you die in 2 shots if you arent a mage 3 shots if you are a mage and 5 shots if you are a tank. and only certain mages have the potientlal to beat them and that is through spamming of 3 second cooldowns spells and runnging after the spam and fireing another off as they chace you. Playing adc is frustrateing? well so is being a melee character cant do nothing early game because you scale but cant do nothing late game because you dont scale enough to deal with adcs. bruisers cant even build like bruisers 3-2-1 offensive defensive boots. they have to build psudeo tanks to even surive long enough to do anything 1-4-1
Knoyle1 votesthe thing is all the problems you are listing is because adcs do so much damage by themselves
No...? Most ADCs have kinda shitty starting stats. Jinx has a lower base AD than fucking Sion dude...
it wont be like you are used to for the past 3 seasons (and this one) but thats the dam point adcs was a more popular role when they werent get two kill snowball the lane snowball the game and other lanes had it more fair against them too when it wasnt adc saw you you die in 2 shots if you arent a mage 3 shots if you are a mage and 5 shots if you are a tank.
A Fed Draven is not the only ADC in this game.
and only certain mages have the potientlal to beat them and that is through spamming of 3 second cooldowns spells and runnging after the spam and fireing another off as they chace you.
This... Is just not true. Even Fucking with an AP build is likely to decimate an ADC's hp bar if not completely delete them. As for Mid mages like 
Usually 2 skills is enough to kill an ADC.
Playing adc is frustrateing? well so is being a melee character cant do nothing early game because you scale but cant do nothing late game because you dont scale enough to deal with adcs. bruisers cant even build like bruisers 3-2-1 offensive defensive boots. they have to build psudeo tanks to even surive long enough to do anything 1-4-1
This is also not true. While you are at a disadvantage against Ranged as Melee you are not useless you play the match up horribly. Also plenty of Melees have ways to cope with ranged champions these days.
Oh wait that's actually Quite a lot...
There is no promise of winning lane as a melee vs ranged of course but thats all in how the match up goes. Remember Junglers exist as well. This advantage shrinks outside of laning phase. Also your definition of a bruiser is flawed. FIGHTERS like 
Tend to build 2-3 Damage items over more defensive Items. Bruisers/Juggernauts like 
Usually only have one Damage Item. Both classifications are the bane of ADCs especially mid/late game due to how high their damage will be to a Marksman who typically build no defensive stats. Even 
who builds like a Bruiser Tends to blow up rather quickly in comparison to actual Bruiser/Juggernauts and Tanks.
LordGeovanni1 votesi wasnt even talking draven thats adcs with crit and not being fed just scaleing up and usualy faster than everyone else because they farm easier with less lane aggression than every other lane. you didnt just site Aatrox as a way to deal with ranged or blitzcrank and mundo. We talking about bruisers you siting assassins and tank supports.
Steel Blossom2 votesBecause ADC's do nothing but damage. If they can't do that, they can do nothing else barring those with a lot of utility like Ashe and Sivir ult.
They would all like a word.
JackMcSnipeyz14 votesThey dont? But "kill the adc" mentality is never gonna leave, it's gonna take A LOT for that to happen. So you're getting focused regardless, but now you insta die to tanky bursty divers even when you're in the middle of your team.
Spoofghoul5 voteswell you are squishy
so base damage is still going to hurt
a little bit of defense goes a very VERY long way vs tanks and fighters
I mean if you have exactly 0 defense and 2-4 people jump in your face and start smashing you
tanks get blown up by that and people still complain about them being too tanky. . . meanwhie expecting an adc to live through that oh the irony
Not xPeke5 votesPeople aren't complaining about getting blown up by 2-4 people.
People are complaining about a Maokai (random example) being able to solo the ADC (or anyway get them low enough to either force them out of the fight, or deliver a free kill for his teammate that simply has to last hit the ADC as if it were a minion) by dealing pretty good damage while 3 people are hitting him and barely leaving a dent (yes obviously I'm talking about mid game, late game sure, ADC should be able to kite him and shred him effectively). Or getting combo'd by a full tank Zac for 70% of your hp. Or getting deleted by a Malphite ult combo. Or getting initially burst and then chased down by a full tank Sejuani taking no damage from you. Or getting blown up by a Poppy with just Sunfire cape and a sheen. etc etc
Spoofghoul2 voteswell
there are 2 reasons for that
0 defense and masteries giving too much % dmg alongside stuff like TLD
besides often i see tanks building an offensive item alongside fighter items like sunfire, i consider that a fighter item mreso then a tank item.
i see things like 
with TLD That is what people seem to call full tank these days
That isn't full tank
this is full tank 
it's a lot harder to kill
until lategame happens and they get 2 shot by crit anyway so why even bother going for a full tank build if it doesnt accomplish anything instead tanks opt for a more damage oriented build so they can actually be a threat to a carry
But even as a full tank build you will hurt squishy champions simply because their lack of defensive items, runes or masteries
Not xPeke1 votesNo, Rod of Ages and TLD on Maokai has nothing to do with this. When I play(ed) Maokai I never build RoA and never went TLD, I could still be unstoppable and deal GOOD damage to a squishy. People complained about Tank Ekko and other Tank Assasssin's, but the reality is while they abused the situation, the sad truth is that it's actual tankiness that is easily abused because of reasons explained below. Simply put.. Being tanky is an easier and safer way to play. And I don't mean this to disrespect tanks or anything like that. I play tanks as well. I'm only stating what I see and feel.
The issue is masteries that have increased damage across the boards for free every new pre-season. Also the introduction of items like Dead Man Plate, rift herald + the importance of Sunfire and Iceborn Gauntlet/Trinity, which all help a tank/tanky champion deal damage and still be as tanky as you want to be.
The trade off between building damage or building tank is not very noticeable due to base damages and masteries/items as mentioned. Funnily enough it's actual carries that struggle to deal damage without items, meanwhile tanks.. who shouldn't be required to do damage.. have no issue at all.
And I understand it is how it is, the squishy champions have no defensive items, runes (to an extent, I mean most players do take armor/hp/mr depending on matchups), and masteries, that's true. But do you also not realise the full tank build has no damage items? Base damages should not be AS effective considering the lack of offensive items.
Spoofghoul1 votesone of the reasons why squishies struggle to deal damage without damage items is because the rest of us are building defensive items
ever seen a tank fight a tank
i have done so in asion vs maokai fight which lasted for 10 minutes with neither of us running below 60% hp because our mana ran out eventually the hp just crept up again and after a while of slapping each other with basics we backed of because nothing was happening
tanks deal absolutley no damage at all to anything tanky lol
it's only squishy champions who get hurt by tanks
you can easily build 
vs a maokai and he will do nothing but tickle you
Not xPeke1 votesThat's not the point man. Saying to build <item> is just like saying "kite". It's not that simple, there's much more to it. When would you buy those items as an ADC? Please tell me. Where's your IE? Zeal item? AS boots? Surviving a maokai is not worth the amount of damage you lose, and trust me it's alot. That's not a viable solution at all. And if you ask me, ADCs shouldn't be required to build those 3 items to survive a TANK.
And no, I'm not only comparing squishies vs tanks. I'm talking in general. A squishy that lacks damage items won't be dealing that much damage to other squishies either.
I don't disagree with your example on the tank vs tank fight, but tbh I don't see the relevance. They're both tanks AND have no damage items. Just because a squishy has no resistances doesn't mean someone with no offensive items (or just 1) should be able to decimate them. That should be expected that tank vs tank is a boring fight.
What should also be expected is the amount of divers and initiation + gapclosing champions that can easily get in ADCs' face and take no damage while obliterating them at the same time. And before anyone says it.. peeling and good positioning won't always save you, and it also realistically never is actually achievable for a whole game. Sh*t happens, even in pro play. If positioning and kiting + peeling was so "easy" to do, pro players would never get touched by tanks and divers.. imagine all the rest of the "normal" playerbase.
Spoofghoul2 votesfound the problem
[{quoted}](name=Not Xpeke,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i46EZ0jA,comment-id=0002000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-01-25T13:28:23.330+0000)
Surviving a maokai is not worth the amount of damage you lose, and trust me it's alot.
you see surviving is always worth you cannot deal damage if you are dead trust me it's true
Generally speaking you have peel and allies try to help you, the least you can do is make their job easier by beefing up a tad even if it cost you some damage
i just listed 3 defensive options you can take to protect yourself losing some damage isn't the end of the world but if you end up dying all the time your not helping anyone your damage will be even worse nobody will want to protect you since you die anyway and deal no damage
Looks decent enough to me, not your perfect dps but it has all the stuff you need lifesteal attackspeed crit and ad and enough mr to make maokai question his sanity
sometimes you just have to adapt
you won't see me building 4 armor items vs a team with mostly magic damage either nor will you see me building 4 damage items and complaining about being easy to kill
I fact i would argue that adc are especially well off vs tanks since most tanks are magic damage focused and there are plenty of AD + MR items besides that you have 2 last whispers which either punish their hp stacking or regen stacking in addition to making half their armor useless and then you even have access to %hp damage
You literally bulk with options to counter anything a tank can build to deal with you wheter its hp/regen/armor and damage with little to no downsides since you hardly lose ad for it it's insane to be honest but the main problem i see is adc never actually using these things to their full potential
now the only real problems are AD focused divers since there are no real armor options for adc besides maybe ninja tabi
though even in that case you can always 
for a lot of % reduction
It's always an option
even 
can be used as a defensive buy with its hp & slow
It's the unwillingness of ADC to drop even the slightest amount of dps for more survive ability which allows tanks and divers to wreck them so easy
Not xPeke1 votesLook, I'm not actually denying your logic, but I'm being realistic. You don't understand how much dps you lose. It's not just how much dps you lose as an ADC, it's also how much dps do you lose in relation to the enemy ADC. What you gonna do when the enemy ADC is gunning down people and your dps just isn't enough? Also no AS items till 3rd or 4th item? GL playing Vayne, even Twitch, Kalista, etc etc. I'd rather try and position even better than I was, or have my team try to peel even better than they were than lose that much dps. Building an early hexdrinker, fine. But going 3 or 4 items without any AS or Crit is suicide.
On paper you're right, but if you're being realistic it simply isn't viable, not all the time.
My main point was that an ADC (or any squishy role) should NOT have to build defensive items to survive a Maokai. That's just not logical. You shouldn't expect them to.
LordGeovanni1 votesyou are ranged champion if a melee champion gets in range of you they should have more power than you. because they had to risk more to even get in the fight. you dont want to blow up get some defenses like everyone else. adcs should only be effective if they stay out of the enemeis range
Not xPeke1 votesThen they should stop making insane mobility spells for these supposedly "melee" champions that can easily gap close and 3 hit stuff while being tanky as hell. I'm not disagreeing with you, but you should also recognise this as well.
LordGeovanni1 voteswhile i dont disagree mobility spells are supposed to be for melee champions. they cant when ranged champions have more damage than melees the more range than them so they do more initial damage before melees even reach them they have more speed and dashes on lower cooldowns and on their top damage items.
JackMcSnipeyz3 votesRiddle me this then. Why can i be killed by Vi when she has almost full tank build, when im WITH MY SUPPORT? Cause that happens, a lot - point on ADC, press R, kill him in 1 second and then your support is just the appetizer.
Hell, i've seen full (AND I MEAN FULL) tank shyvanna running around melting my team and being unkillable at the same time
Spoofghoul1 votesthat is because vi is bullshit
but sill like i sad base damage is going to hurt and in this case how would you peel vi R ?
JackMcSnipeyz3 votesVi R isnt the issue, the issue is what comes after. If vi needed her team AFTER she engaged to win the fight, that would be okay. But right now, she has a super reliable engage, then she herself also does the damage.
I have no issue with being focused on, but the damage some tanks and divers are doing just invalidates you as a class. (Also see hecarim, malph, maoki tho less bursty, but still hurts for how tanky he is)
Truly Prideful8 votesI don't mind taking a backseat in the games where I'm not the most fed guy, but even then the enemy team wants to dive onto me first. Years of being trained to murder the ranged AD class ASAP won't go away quickly even if they try to shift away from it.
kirbyzama7 votesADCs don't want to be MVPs. They just don't want to be the ball.
Azure Hamster6 votesGiving the team something to focus on (protecting the carry) is part of what makes the game interesting.
Ralanr28 votesI hope you're joking because having to babysit them isn't fun.
Azure Hamster5 votesI hope you're joking because having to babysit them isn't fun.
I'm not joking. When I play support and I get the ADC fed and they dominate, I feel a real sense of accomplishment.
Maybe you should play a game you like instead if you don't like this one.
Ralanr5 votesOh. As a support then all the power to you. I just hate having to do it as a top laner.
ShaolinToilet3 votesIf you want to win sometimes you have to protect your adc instead of engaging theirs.
Ralanr3 votesJust because I don't like doesn't mean I don't do.
ShaolinToilet1 votesInstead of sometimes I meant often. It's one of the primary roles of tanks.
Ralanr3 votesAgain, just because I don't like it doesn't mean I do not do it.
KAYLE TURBO INT1 votesdont play tanks if you want to hardcarry, tanks are meant to be for peel for carries like adc or mid .... current meta tanks ofc can do everything so carry away until the items or champs get hard nerfed
Ralanr2 votesI don't play tanks to hard carry. I play tanks to ENGAGE
IcyPepper10 votesI feel the same way if anyone gets fed when I play support. That's kind of what the support role does, but not necessarily the rest of the team...
Ahristocats5 votes[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=i46EZ0jA,comment-id=,timestamp=2017-01-24T17:38:51.177+0000)
Wouldn't it be a win-win if you weren't auto targeted by every Vi and Nautilus and Poppy point clicking you into CC hell and you had a little more agency at the expense of your necessity
except it's still the case, because they're still the main damage in the team
Ralanr5 votesWho needs damage when all you need is Ziggs and the best peelers?
Ahristocats3 votesso ziggs doesn't have damage?
look at his passive, Q and ulti damage AND COOLDOWN friend, then come back
Ralanr3 votesIt's flat burst so I don't really notice it as a tank honestly.
Ahristocats2 votesdon't really notice it as a tank honestly.
wow, i'm happy for your miracle then
Ralanr1 votesEh, I rarely fight Ziggs as a squishy to be honest.
Ahristocats4 votesziggs kills tanks as much as he kills squishies, it doesn't matter that you're a tank or not
he will still deal 400 or 500 with Q on 2 sec cd, and passive with lichbane will shred you
first blood tower isn't the only reason he goes bot, ziggs has burst per second
Jeanne fan club5 votesPeople complain if mages do damage and carry. People complain if tanks are tanky in teammfights and carry. People complain if assassins do damage and carry. People complain if supports support and carry. People also complain if ADC does damage and carries.
To be honest, nothing will change anything. People will complain regardless of who can carry.