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Balance Changes for Morgana and Thresh

Stacona··3 votes·592 views

So my ideas will come across as direct nerfs, but I will try to explain my reasoning behind my ideas and also try to answers any further questions.

Thresh: Death Sentence: Okay so I do not know the exact numbers on the width of the skill shot's hit box, but I do know that it is over twice the size than the actual visuals. So in the name of clarity and also better counter playing and a easier time to consciously dodge death sentences and less about getting lucky that Thresh will miss the ability make the hit box skinnier, I understand that this width might have been huge on release to get people into Thresh easier, but Thresh is no where near a new champion anymore and this needs to be addressed and good Thresh players (will notice a difference) really shouldn't affect their play at all and should land roughly the same amount of hooks before and after making the hit-box skinnier, they might miss 1 or 2 more hooks initially but after they get used to the change good Thresh players will land Death Sentences just as well as before. I find it highly unfair that a Death Sentence blatantly misses its target but still magically hits because the visuals and actual hit-box do not match properly, so again in the name of clarity and healthier gameplay the hit-box on this skill needs to be fixed. (Plus with worlds just coming around the corner I do not want these important matches decided because of a hit-box being bigger than what it is suppose to be.)

Morgana: So my changes for Morgana are a little more severe than Thresh's (who barely gets touched outside of a skinnier Death Sentence) but honestly needed to be fixed for awhile and still has not been looked at.

Dark Binding: Lower the snare duration to 1.5/1.75/2/2.25/2.5 from 2/2.25/2.5/2.75/3 seconds. Make the bindings have a skinnier hit-box. Leaving the high base damage intact will still allow Morgana to be that high lane bully, and the snare duration is still very long, just hopefully this will make the snare not feel like it lasts for eternity. And a skinnier hit-box for the bindings is so that the visuals match up with binding itself to add clarity to the game and also opens up counter play for the targeted user to have a better time to consciously try to dodge the binding instead of hoping on luck that the Morgana misses her bindings, overall same reasonings to why a skinnier hit-box is needed for Death Sentence for clarity of visuals actually meaning something to be more accurate for the affected party to dodge the skill shot.

Black Shield: Lower the shield duration to 2 from 5 seconds. This may seem like a drastic nerf, but it really isn't since Black Shield SHOULD be about protecting a champion from an incoming deadly CC and not about CC immunity for an entire skirmish. Overall this is try to open up better counter play, specifically better counter attack for the enemy has to wait a lot less time to throw out certain key abilities like Ashe arrow or Varus worms and possibly see these two to get played more. Also a shorter Black Shield duration will punish bad Morgana's a lot more where as good Morgana will not feel a difference at a lower duration at all.

So I will try my best to answer any questions or concerns you may have, just do not downvote because you wouldn't want someone to downvote your post if they didn't agree with something, and if you do not agree with something then just share your thoughts since the comment section is for discussions.

~ Stacona

16 Comments

Marthian1 votes

Probably an additional thing for Morgana: 2.5 seconds is still somewhat long. I think it should at least have some downscaling if it hits a champion up close (say minimum 1.5 second, possibly max rank.)

Stacona1 votes

I would think that just complicates things on a champion that is suppose to be easy to play with a slight difficulty to her for expert players can be better than novice players- but for the most part keep her simple and easy and not add any complicate mechanics at all would be best so just a duration nerf is better as well as the much needed make the hit box skinnier to match the projectiles visual so that you cannot get binded by air which is what occurs now and is very unhealthy gameplay getting hit by something that should have visually missed- if Morgana gets a rework then it would be a different story as far as changing any of her mechanics

Tempist1 votes

Regarding the Morgana changes...no, just no. It's a terrible idea.

Thing is, that despite the current meta putting her in bot lane as a support, Morgana was originally released as a midlaner. Moreover, she continues to be played in the midlane by a number of players. And the Q snare length is an absolutely integral part of her kit.

She needs that lengthy snare to be able to do proper damage with her W. She needs that snare length to be able to proc her ultimate. And the duration of her black shield is to allow her to get close enough to ulti, as well as to prevent her from being CC'd while doing so.

Now, it's fair to argue that Morgana is a bit of a one trick pony. Either land a Q, or be useless until it comes off cooldown (unless you have flash available). But that is the nature of her kit. If Riot has a problem with it, they could always rework her.

Those proposed changes would make her completely unviable for midlane. Riot has stated earlier that they don't want to enforce a meta, and the above changes are all about doing that. And that doesn't even go into how unfair it would be for any mid Morgana main to have their champion suddenly rendered unplayable in that role.

Tl;Dr Morgana was originally intended to be played a midlaner, continues to be played by many in the midlane, and irrespective of the current meta, any changes to her should keep that fact in mind. If Riot feels her Q snare, which is absolutely essential to her kit as a midlaner is too long, they should rework the kit, not Olaf the champion.

Stacona1 votes

The binding duration is too long and is too overpowered so either her damage goes down or her snare duration, pick which one is more important then come back to me --- Back when Morgana was mid a longer black shield duration didn't mean much cause mages can kill the shield, where as now she is granted 5 seconds of CC immunity

Her damage and ratios are untouched, meaning she can be played solo lane and won't feel a difference for her early game bully power and damage output- her binding hit-box needs to match the actual visuals for healthier gameplay and proper clarity of what you see is what happens and not what happens now where the binding misses but it touches the air 3 feet around you and binds you- the visual of the binding actually touching you should be what the hit box should be, same with thresh

Tempist1 votes

Again, that ignores the entirety of my previous post. The binding duration is needed for mid Morgana, it cannot go down. Same with the damage.

Now, you could reduce the base damages on her Q a bit, and increase the ratios to compensate for the mid Morgana players. That change is perfectly viable, especially since the majority of her damage vs champions actually comes from her W and R - the Q duration is merely the mechanism which allows those skills to do their respective damage.

However, I suspect that the damage on her Q isn't what bothers you, it's the root duration. But you cannot decrease root duration without either completely destroying the champion or making her overpowered.

Too low a duration without compensation and you may as well delete mid Morgana.

Too low a duration, but with buffs to her W and R will probably make her into some sort of OP mage or jungler.

Basically, if you have a problem with the Q snare duration, you should be arguing for a rework. Hopefully (assuming Riot keeps their promise here), they agree with me.

Stacona1 votes

B A L A N C E

The damage is needed for mid morgana, utility is for supports, you act like this change destroys the champion when it barely even touches her / you won't even notice the change in game because what the ability does has not changed at all and it is just as powerful Morgana does not need anything to compensate for her nerfs, the nerfs are to balance overpowered functions, if you cannot play champions outside of being in an overpowered state you should not be playing that champion in the first place- if you actually like play morgana then these nerfs do not affect you at all- 1.5 second snare alone is really long, 2.5 seconds is still the longest lock down in the game

AGAIN- AGAIN- AGAIN- AGAIN- AGAIN- these changes won't affect Morgana from players that like playing her now, if you play a champion for OP functionality DO NOT play that champion in the first place- Morgana will not be killed with these changes, her win rate will be the same, her play rate might go down just because of the psychological effect of people seeing a nerf on a champion and thinking the champion will be killed and be trash tier (you are an example of this psychology) when in reality Morgana will be the same Morgana before and after the nerfs just be in a better, healthier state for the game

Tempist1 votes

The damage is needed for mid morgana, utility is for supports, you act like this change destroys the champion when it barely even touches her >

I think you're missing the point. Mid Morgana needs damage to work. The vast majority of Morgana's damage comes from the W procing for the full duration. The Q damage is actually relatively insignificant, what matters is the snare. Without the Q snare length, champions can walk out of her pool much sooner. Without that snare length, champions can more easily escape her Ultimate - that's a 50% reduction to her R damage right there.

Ergo, reducing snare length quite honestly guts her potential damage output. It lowers her W damage, and it makes it harder to use her ultimate. I'll also add that mid Morgana is in no way OP.

Again, I don't have a problem with a rework to her kit to lower the snare duration. But as the kit currently stands, lowering snare duration will lower her damage to the point that she isn't playable mid. (Remember, players will get tenacity vs Morgana, so that duration cut is more significant than it seems at first glance) And if you buff W enough to compensate, other problems arise.

Stacona1 votes

its a 2.5 second lock down you are not getting out of that any time soon- also Fiddle's fear is related to his ultimate and drain and they just lowered the duration straight up without compensation for anything and it doesn't even deal any damage- its because fiddle fear was too dam long same with binding snare

Rabid Husky1 votes

im assuming you love your braum your blitz and your lux supports am I right? thresh needs to keep up with blitz his grab isn't as good and he doesn't have a knock up not only that this hit box your protesting means higher risk of hitting a minion narrowing it will only make it a bit more evil since it can go between minons and hit champions and as for morgana tempest puts it best but also consider this morgana counters a cc supports like braum blitz lux and so on but she does get boreing and shes not used as much because of this but throwing that outta the window she is also a mage first and a support 2nd people take her mid more than as support if your gonna say oh change these guys nurf em consider everything not just your rage

Stacona1 votes

Lux is a trash support, just play her mid--- i like mage supports like veigar and zyra, -- anivia can support with the mana regen buffs to chalice bell and throw in some mana regen runes and maybe some more items with mana regen to buff the chalice passive portion of the item and you are golden- before fiddle's fear duration nerf i was the first to play him support all the time

anyways, the visuals of morgana's binding is too wide to go through the minion wave- the hit box needs to get smaller to match the visuals (it does mean the binding gets nerfed, but needs to happen in the name of clarity!) so meaning you can still use minions as your shields against bindings no problem, that will not change, and landing binds are still a devastating factor and extreme kill potential when they hit just slightly less time for you arent perma locked down from only one skill shot---

basically - these nerfs do not affect the champions, especially when good players play them, but the nerfs will balance the champions out to be better at equal footing with the other champions in the game and not above the others to look down and laugh at the little peasant champions

Rabid Husky1 votes

well what about braum or blitzcrank? both can dominate the support role or what about annie her stun is also pretty long and she has no skill shots and her q tracks get tenacity items or items that remove debuffs ive been permastunned by Leona support and you don't hear me crying for nurfs when it comes down to it hide behind minons or learn to dodge them its not like they ignore minions and track if I get hit I know its my fault and if these are problems go to a different lane try irelia her passive lowers disables by the number of enemy champs or try being a tank support they just eat up damage there both pretty balanced ive never really seen a support thresh delete someone and morganas suppost to counter cc and her rooting helps her kit

Stacona1 votes

They are removing Irelia's passive, they nerfed Annie's stun and it wasn't even 2 seconds, the black shield duration lowered is so the ability is reactive instead of cc immunity for a long time and to not create an olaf ultimate as a basic ability

KingJofreThe0011 votes

Hi Stacona, thanks for opening the discussion. As much as it hurts me to see Morgana nerfs incoming, they are definitely needed for the sake of healthier bot lane. Your proposed nerfs are not as bad as I expected them to be. Q's duration reduction wont be too bad and brings it into line with the rest of the longest, stuns, snares, fears as you mentioned. I do not think that .5 seconds would really hurt her midlane games in conjunction with her W. As for the shield, it has been overpowered for a long time. The five seconds always made her an incredibly safe choice for mid as she was practically ungankable. However, I am wondering if the gutting of the shield's duration would be compensated in any way? Would there be any trades or is it just a straight nerf? Thanks for any information.

Stacona2 votes

Thanks~ Veigar's stun is AoE and has a duration of 1.5-2.5 (kind of needed for his meteor), deals no damage, and is on a roughly 50% higher cooldown than morg's binding (the stun trap cooldown goes down by 1 second, the bind is flat at all ranks)- while morg's binding has a base of 300 and a 3 second snare, the binding can sacrifice some duration to match that of the longest lock down duration because it honestly shouldn't be longer than malzahar's ultimate which has a 2.5 second suppression from the full duration while coming close his damage- which one is damage per second the other is a straight up nuke-- point being the fact that a basic ability comes close to an ultimate's power means it needs to be taken back a notch and not touching her damage will keep her early game strengths- her late game might take a tiny hit as far as her late game is now but still be very useful with her slightly shorter than before but still very long snare duration

For her black shield, i feel this ability should be about proper timing and reaction to stop X cc on Y champion- this wasn't a problem in the past with the long duration because mages could blast through it, but now that support morgana has risen you can see the overpowered effects the long shield duration has and really does snuff out some more utility orientated champions and hard engage champions, but as far as bot lane goes champs like varus and ashe get played less because black shield counters their utility pretty hard- so a lower duration will still allow for the ability to reactively block X cc, but no longer be immune to counter attacks from more utility focused champions, and black shield will be weaker than olaf's ultimate like it is suppose to be (the fact that it is comparable at all to an ultimate means it is in an overpowered state)

Skinnier Qs' hit-boxes, much needed for clarity and aid in targets to properly dodge skill shots and not get death sentenced or binded by the air around the ability

KingJofreThe0011 votes

So following up on this explanation is one other question: do you see these changes being implemented before or after worlds? The nerfs on the PBE, as of right now, only affect her early R damage and the amount of damage that her shield can absorb. I know that the last patch was supposed to start the balancing act as we approach the LCS, but nothing was tacked onto Morg at that time. Thank again.

Stacona1 votes

I would like Riot to implement these nerfs before worlds if they would implement them then when morg and thresh get played then game breaking bindings and hooks that hit the air around the target do not decide the fate of the game in such important matches- want to see these skill shots ACTUALLY landing first and foremost as far as lowering the hitboxes to match the visuals go- for the shield duration and snare duration i highly doubt people had the time to practice other champions in time for worlds so the other change, which is much needed btw, can happen before or after worlds

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