Another MR-Item? Mages vs tanks is already the most horrible scenario

Glory97·May 3, 2017·4 votes·1,730 views

Yeah there are different classes. Assassin, adc, mage etc. And they counter each other. But as a tank its not impossible to win against an adc. If you play smart as tank in teamfight you can kill the enemy adc. An adc can outplay the assassin that threatens him. And that is fair in my opinion.

But as a mage going against a tank? Simply impossible. The tank buys and (pretty standard), and the mage will run out of mana before the tank runs out of hp. Yes, the adc is supposed to deal with the tanks, but what if the adc is garbage or a jhin (in the worst case both xD) and you as a mage try to carry?

Why is there a need to add another mr-item, adaptive helmet, that especially counters the few dps-mages , that can because of their dps output threaten tanks a little bit?

32 Comments

Variks the LoyalMay 3, 20173 votes

This frees up some extra design space to add some tank-melting goodness to DPS Mages.

But, Tanks are specifically supposed to be the hardest counter to a class with burst. Assassins and Burst Mages (Basically all Mages besides Battle Mages) should have a very difficult time VS tanks, just like an ADC will have a very difficult time VS an Assassin.

Glory97May 3, 20171 votes

I know. But you see as ad-assassin like zed or talon you can still go for item 3153 and item 3071 to actually threaten tank a little bit. the tanks still counter zed and talon but the ad-assassins are not without any options. That's fair for both sides. And i think mages should also have an option to somehow do something against tanks, without being superior to them.

RalanrMay 3, 20172 votes

And Void staff doesn't help because?

Glory97May 3, 20171 votes

of course void staff helps, but even with void staff a mage is not a threat to a tank that has ~140 mr.

RalanrMay 3, 20174 votes

Ok, here's a question: Why are you focusing the tank?

Glory97May 3, 20171 votes

I mostly play mages like Cassiopeia Orianna Viktor Ryze . I stay in the backline. That limits my options to focus the enemy backline.

RalanrMay 3, 20171 votes

Viktor and Ori have enough AoE to hit everyone.

Psi21May 3, 20172 votes

{quoted}

And Void staff doesn't help because?

Void staff's does too little in reducing MR.

Cost too high
The lose of 20 MR reduction on the abyssal scepter was a hard hit to mages. I know I run MPen runes, get haunting guise, void staff and sorcerer's shoes and it is garbage to how much MR a tank/Juggernaut gets from just getting their normal items.
And the new items are a slap in the face to mages Garg Armor and Adapt Helm they are stupid OP
It is completely stupid we still have tanks with true damage and 1:1 ratio abilities still in this game.

Variks the LoyalMay 3, 20171 votes

That's what item 3151 is meant for.

It could maybe use some stat adjustments, but it's made for Battle Mages to melt tanks with.

Also, while it's true and AD Assassin can build BC or BortK for better tank killin', they make a trade off for doing so. It gives less squishy killing power compared to Lethality items.

VekknaMay 3, 20172 votes

Hey, good thing Adaptive Helm reduces liandry's burn!

People don't realize yet how many mages basic abilities are affected by that Helm reduction. Or how severely it breaks the DPS to EHP ratio balance, and it was already totally lopsided in favor of divers/bruisers (the class of tank carries that aren't classified as juggernauts, tanks, or carries but still do all of the above).

I'm just wondering how Riot ended up thinking "wow, that Cassiopeia is really bullying that Hecarim."

Variks the LoyalMay 3, 20171 votes

Does it? I didn't know that, I thought it only worked on abilities.

And... Divers are not 'tank carries.' They're Divers.

VekknaMay 3, 20171 votes

The tooltip text says "spell effects." So that includes Liandry's and DFT.

The subclass designations are fuzzy. I'm just talking about the dudes that build 0-1.5 damage items into full tank but can still 1v1 a mage with equal income and level.

Amumu Chogath Darius DrMundo Fiora Galio Garen Gnar Gragas Illaoi Hecarim JarvanIV Jax Kled LeeSin Malphite Maokai Nasus Olaf Renekton Shyvana Trundle Udyr Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing XinZhao Zac

RalanrMay 4, 20171 votes

You have divers, juggernauts, Wardens, Vanguards, and Skirmishers listed.

Psi21May 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

That's what is meant for.

It could maybe use some stat adjustments, but it's made for Battle Mages to melt tanks with.

Also, while it's true and AD Assassin can build BC or BortK for better tank killin', they make a trade off for doing so. It gives less squishy killing power compared to Lethality items.

4% extra damage if the conditions are perfect ... that is terrible and the price of that is ridiculous. Capping at 100 damage per the 3 seconds if you could ever dream to get that much damage from the terrible item.

Variks the LoyalMay 3, 20171 votes

I never said it was perfect. It's got an obvious contradiction (Flat Pen and %Damage should not go together). It's outdated and does need an update.

I said it's meant for it.

Glory97May 3, 20172 votes

Yes it is correct to do a trade off for being able to deal with tanks. And if the mages was given such an option that would be great. An item that for example gives 40 ap and has a unique effect that up to 20% more magic dmg is dealt to enemies with more hp than oneself (comparable to Lord dominiks) would be awesome. Liandries is damn expensive and other items such as morello, void staff, rabbadons are more important. Additionally liandrys is not really effective if you cant perma cc the enemy.

RalanrMay 3, 20172 votes

Oh look, dps mages can actually get buffed now.

HickerdinkleMay 4, 20172 votes

actually the lines are so fuzzy with the builds/items available I can agree with the list. Who hasn't seen a subclass from League easily become a tank?

And the Subclasses are written up badly. Blitz has almost 3 crowd control abilities and he is not considered an enchanter?

League just used the subclass system for justifications to give power that was distributed incorrectly when developing namely juggernauts.

Psi21May 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

actually the lines are so fuzzy with the builds/items available I can agree with the list. Who hasn't seen a subclass from League easily become a tank?

And the Subclasses are written up badly. Blitz has almost 3 crowd control abilities and he is not considered an enchanter?

League just used the subclass system for justifications to give power that was distributed incorrectly when developing namely juggernauts.

^ Can't agree more.

Cho'Gath is a tank while he has a True Damage ability. Seriously that is just stupid.

Leagues definitions are all F-ed up.

RalanrMay 4, 20171 votes

Cho has always had true damage. It's not his fault his design is archaic.

RalanrMay 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

actually the lines are so fuzzy with the builds/items available I can agree with the list. Who hasn't seen a subclass from League easily become a tank?

Honestly that's probably because people assume tank just means hard to kill. I won't deny that tank builds exist to allow champions to somewhat fulfill the role, but the point is that an actual tank is better for it.

And the Subclasses are written up badly. Blitz has almost 3 crowd control abilities and he is not considered an enchanter?

Why would CC make you an enchanter? Enchanters are more about buffing allies than disrupting enemies. It'd make more sense to argue him as a disrupter.

He probably isn't either simply because he's melee (Taric is a hybrid enchanter/Warden so him being a melee enchanter makes sense). I don't think he fits "unique playstyle" as that's where Riot puts him. I assumed he was a Warden tank.

League just used the subclass system for justifications to give power that was distributed incorrectly when developing namely juggernauts.

Giving us a basic idea how certain groups of champions are meant to perform and be balanced is honestly a good thing.

HickerdinkleMay 4, 20172 votes

{quoted} Why would CC make you an enchanter? Enchanters are more about buffing allies than disrupting enemies. It'd make more sense to argue him as a disrupter.

Blitz is called a Vanguard

But he could easily be a: Controllers Enchanters, Disruptors

Can you believe sivir is listed as an enchanter too?

But Blitz is just labelled JUST a Vanguard.

League's definitions were just tongue and cheek word dribble as an excuse to justify damage to tanks at the time... making Juggernauts.

RalanrMay 4, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Blitz is called a Vanguard

Hold that thought.

Can you believe sivir is listed as an enchanter too?

Nope.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

She is not listed under enchanter and Blitzcrank is listed as "unique playstyle".

Where are you getting your source of info?

HickerdinkleMay 4, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Hold that thought.

Nope.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/3A5uuBw7-champion-subclass-list

She is not listed under enchanter and Blitzcrank is listed as "unique playstyle".

Where are you getting your source of info?

actually yes Sivir has been labelled from many players as an enchanter.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/es/c/gameplay-balance/zw3jXXJA-subclasses-for-every-champion

An now Blitz... doesn't fit the definitions... Come on. Srsly

League balancing crew justed messed up is all it is.

RalanrMay 4, 20171 votes

Maybe you should take the post from the Rioter as more accurate than a post done by a player.

And no I don't really agree with how Riot places Blitz but that's how they see him.

YokoNomiMay 3, 20171 votes

The biggest problem as a tank for awhile was that the biggest threat to an AD or AP champion are only specifically those that are inherently meant for that one thing, or both if they're something like Garen when he goes tank build. There had to be some give to how much power players had over anyone trying to play the meat shield that may or may not act whenever he/she jumps in to initiate a fight.

l Dárius lMay 3, 20171 votes

o no, 3 mr items tanks and juggernauts can buy now!!!11!!1!!!!!

tanks have real mr itemization now!!!11!!!11!!!!1

lets not forget banshees veil gives a spell shield and is now an ap item. so when the nautilus, who can get close enough to break it, tries to use his r and 1 shot with those 3 rotations, or malphite does the same thing, or the new maokai, or the zac jumping on you with his e while you try to roam, or the darius e, or the amumu q, or the sion, or garen, or camille, or kled, or (insert even MORE melee champs getting kited by ranged)

its not like mages just got another get out of jail free card or anything item 3157 item 3102

Psi21May 3, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Dárius l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hzgo8XnF,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2017-05-03T20:00:21.566+0000)

o no, 3 mr items tanks and juggernauts can buy now!!!11!!1!!!!!

tanks have real mr itemization now!!!11!!!11!!!!1

lets not forget banshees veil gives a spell shield and is now an ap item. so when the nautilus, who can get close enough to break it, tries to use his r and 1 shot with those 3 rotations, or malphite does the same thing, or the new maokai, or the zac jumping on you with his e while you try to roam, or the darius e, or the amumu q, or the sion, or garen, or camille, or kled, or (insert even MORE melee champs getting kited by ranged)

its not like mages just got another get out of jail free card or anything

You don't get it... AP juggernauts just got a whole lot tougher to kill and now do more damage.

take Malphite... his ult does ridiculous AoE damage but he can't always build full AP while getting defensive stats... well now he can.

It is kinda dumb to have a tank update when you don't take away a bit of the damage tanks are already doing.

l Dárius lMay 3, 20171 votes

{quoted}

You don't get it... AP juggernauts just got a whole lot tougher to kill and now do more damage.

take Malphite... his ult does ridiculous AoE damage but he can't always build full AP while getting defensive stats... well now he can.

It is kinda dumb to have a tank update when you don't take away a bit of the damage tanks are already doing.

no such thing as an ap juggernaut.

Psi21May 4, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=l Dárius l,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hzgo8XnF,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2017-05-03T21:09:21.418+0000)

no such thing as an ap juggernaut.

To name a few...

Blitzcrank Cho'Gath Diana Ekko Elise Gragas Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Rumble Sejuani Singed Taric

Please don't troll L Darius L

l Dárius lMay 5, 20171 votes

{quoted}

To name a few...

Blitzcrank Cho'Gath Diana Ekko Elise Gragas Malphite Maokai Mordekaiser Rumble Sejuani Singed Taric

Please don't troll L Darius L

ok you got me with morde, and maybe elise, because she can't really function as an assassin, but the rest of those are either tanks, assassins, or mages.

maybe with the new items and changes diana can be a juggernaut now though