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Bard Heal Shrines are Poor After Laning Phase

PapaGreg21··63 votes·3,411 views

I have built full AP Bard and was shocked at how little his heal restored after about the 20 minute mark. In addition, once you start grouping as a team, everyone becomes so mobile that there is no way you can start placing heal shrines around and let them "grow" after 10 seconds while making sure that 4 other people stick around to utilize them. I would say the movement buff of the heal is more useful at that point than anything. I think all of his other abilities are great but this ability should transition to something more meaningful in the later stages of the game. Perhaps reduce the time the heal needs to upgrade or make the heal more powerful in general.

EDIT: For those of you saying "bard is my favorite and he is already super strong and doesn't need any help," I don't believe any of you. If I loved playing the Bard I would want to go out there and dominate with him by having Riot make him as strong as possible. Your desire to play Bard but lack of desire to make him incredibly efficient at multiple phases of the game is both confusing and somewhat unbelievable.

74 Comments

Krully8 votes

bard doesnt need buffs

PapaGreg2126 votes

{quoted}

bard doesnt need buffs

Bard definitely needs buffs. They just buffed him in 5.17 but they were just mana reductions and cooldown reductions.

Zone of Endless6 votes

{quoted}

Bard definitely needs buffs. They just buffed him in 5.17 but they were just mana reductions and cooldown reductions.

He absolutely does not need a buff. His Q is already one of the strongest basic spell in the game. His heal is pretty much on par with other healing support besides Soraka.

He just take some skills to use but once you know how to use him he's one of the stronger support in the game.

PapaGreg218 votes

{quoted}

He absolutely does not need a buff. His Q is already one of the strongest basic spell in the game. His heal is pretty much on par with other healing support besides Soraka.

He just take some skills to use but once you know how to use him he's one of the stronger support in the game.

You are comparing him to champions that do not need their heals to sit on the ground for 10 seconds before somebody can use them. That makes it a nightmare to position them for any kind of team combat once mid game comes around.

Zorae422 votes

cough Sona's biggest possible heal on someone with 1hp is 165+30% AP Nami heals the first person for 185+30%

Bard's non-bloomed shrine heals 150+20%... Not really that much weaker.

Chrige9 votes

And both Sona's and Nami's heal multiple people.

Kubox4 votes

Neither of those can drop 3x heal at the turret, go pick up 2 meeps and come back full mana.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

And both Sona's and Nami's heal multiple people.

Sona's heals her and the lowest health ally. which sounds great... But sometimes means you heal the ally running away (who is already pretty safe) rather then the ally you need to keep alive.

Blastires2 votes

Nami heal does damage to the enemy. Sona heals more than 1 guy.

Aka1ryuu2 votes

And Sona will also put a temporary barrier around anyone who gets close for a short time after the heal.

only zhule2 votes

{quoted}

And Sona will also put a temporary barrier around anyone who gets close for a short time after the heal.

oh yeah got to love that 1.5 second shield that won't even block the full damage of one auto attack late game, and can't be reapplied without waiting for your heal to come off cooldown.

IcyPepper1 votes

But combined with the heal, it's pretty strong. The heal isn't strong, the shield isn't strong, but combined can lead to a pretty defensive play.

I've denied Karthus ults with that thing. 1.5 seconds doesn't seem like long, but you can shield up to your entire team instead of just one person (and it's instant, not a skillshot like Lux's W).

only zhule1 votes

{quoted}

But combined with the heal, it's pretty strong. The heal isn't strong, the shield isn't strong, but combined can lead to a pretty defensive play.

I've denied Karthus ults with that thing. 1.5 seconds doesn't seem like long, but you can shield up to your entire team instead of just one person (and it's instant, not a skillshot like Lux's W).

I've saved team mates with her heal + shield. But i have also mistimed the shield before and it fell off right before the enemy ADC fired their last shot they were in range for, and they got a kill.

As you said neither of the two parts of the spell are really all the strong, neither has good ratios. the theory is they work well if combined. Why not make the shield last longer then? if 40-60% of my power is tied up in a secondary part of my skill. It would be nice if that aspect didn't disappear so quickly.

IcyPepper2 votes

I don't think that would be an overpowering buff.

However, despite all her nerfs, Sona is still in a decent spot (you can blame lichbane, locket, and ardent censor for that. She's strong because of her synergy with items apparently). I think 2 seconds would be reasonable tho.

She would probably get a little lovetap nerf compensation tho. You know how Rito is with her. Blame the support items

Sozan51 votes

And Bard's heal grows over time. He can also have up to 3 on map. It also gives movement speed buff.

Really, comparing champs abilities like that is pointless.

For Carthage1 votes

Didn't they do the exact same thing to Fiora and then she became broken?

Oh wait...

Raptamei1 votes

{quoted}

Bard definitely needs buffs. They just buffed him in 5.17 but they were just mana reductions and cooldown reductions.

And the pros still say he's not viable.

Sulghunter6 votes

Sona's heals are crap the entire game. ; _ ;

Jingerbeardman2 votes

lies

Meep Man6 votes

While I don't think Bard needs a direct buff, it would be good to make his W better on tankier targets at least. Rebalancig his W heal to say... Uncharged: 20/40/60/80/100 (+20% AP) (+1% target's max health) Charged: 40/80/120/160/200 (+40% AP) (+5/6/7/8/9% target's max health) And then making the max charge time be reducable by gameplay methods... NEW EFFECT: At rank 4 and 5, Bard can channel on the shrines by clicking on them to increase the charging speed by 50/100% (Rank 4/5), reducing the charge time to down to 7.5/5 seconds. This way Bard has a more active role later in the game.

Also, you wonder why we don't want him to be buffed too much or at all? See the Juggernauts? They are banned every game. Lets not rush things and have that happen to Bard.

lucario8881 votes

Genius. You sir deserve a medal

Lugg4 votes

They are poor DURING laning phase. They should have a % max health ratio so they are relevant.

Hoodwink3 votes

How about the charge time reduces over time?

Or when the shrine has full points in it it turns into a targeted champion heal that restores 250 health + 1:1 AP ratio?

The latter might be a bit much, I guess.

PapaGreg2117 votes

[{quoted}](name=Cat Trick,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsNIHvMe,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2015-09-11T18:54:42.599+0000)

How about the charge time reduces over time?

Or when the shrine has full points in it it turns into a targeted champion heal that restores 250 health + 1:1 AP ratio?

The latter might be a bit much, I guess.

I think the charge time should be reduced with the number of meeps collected to be honest. Every x amont of meeps reduces the charge time by a second. That way he will naturally get to the point where he can get down to a second or two once late game happens if he is successful in his meep collecting.

Yormaughm3 votes

As a Bard main I can tell you that after laning phase I use the heal as a speed boost almost exclusively. Or just to touch up people who are not currently fighting. If you're thinking of heals as a "hidden power engage tool" that's now how Bards heals are supposed to work. Placing the shrines on the ground is not how you're supposed to use Bard's heals after laning phase anyway. It's true that they're not good enough to "save" people from taking damage if they go in, which is why they're more useful for the speed boost to cast on an ally to make sure they catch that mobile champion who just dashed/flashed away, or for the speed boost to run away in time and regroup. I also frequently buy item 3504 to give my heals/speed boosts that are cast on someone directly even more of an oompf.

Sniper 03 votes

Out of the laning phase I just use his heal for a speed boost. I feel like any substantial increase in base healing power would be obnoxious. lol

alfavhunter2 votes

Here's an idea

When W reaches rank 5 it's charge time is reduced by 50%

Ipressbutton2 votes

They should reduce the charge up time needed for his shrines for each point you put in it. They are really weak in terms of healing outside the laning phase. In teamfights they are still useful because you can put them directly under someones feet and it acts as a move speed buff.

alfavhunter2 votes

Make them heal their base value (instant heal value), then when they mature they heal for that value +10/13/16/19/22% missing hp

Every 10 meets collected increases this value by 1% and every 25 keeps collected reduces the time needed for the shrine to mature by .25 seconds

Quort2 votes

The heal is decent sustain early on and is just a little boost later. It's used mostly to speed up your allies and that's fine. Bard's plenty powerful anyway.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

In laning, they're heals. In late-game, they're ally speed-boosts. They're still useful either way, and I don't want them to over-buff Bard.

OyddAWqJ5r2 votes

{quoted} EDIT: For those of you saying "bard is my favorite and he is already super strong and doesn't need any help," I don't believe any of you. If I loved playing the Bard I would want to go out there and dominate with him by having Riot make him as strong as possible. Your desire to play Bard but lack of desire to make him incredibly efficient at multiple phases of the game is both confusing and somewhat unbelievable.

I main Renekton but I by no means want him to be buffed simply because he shouldn't be. What's wrong with wanting your favorite champion to be balanced and not blatantly op?

Besides, that's basically asking for nerfs once people complain about how strong it is.

I GANK LANES1 votes

yeah, if anything slightly reduce the base healing and increase the scaling. he has little to offer after laning phase other than niche instances and a clutch ult

Daxterr1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nerf my Q,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsNIHvMe,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-09-11T22:07:20.068+0000)

yeah, if anything slightly reduce the base healing and increase the scaling. he has little to offer after laning phase other than niche instances and a clutch ult

bard has little to offer after laning phase????

I GANK LANES1 votes

compared to other supports? yeah. a conditional stun, a clutch ult like i mentioned and magical journey is nice but it's just a niche escape/chase, he doesn't bring the utility that a lot of other supports do.

Paero1 votes

His heal should increase in potency over time rather than in 1 burst, so if his shrine is down for 8 seconds it should be 80% as strong as a full charge rather than weak as shit until 10 seconds

Borbland1 votes

I play alot of Bard, and I personally don't think his heal needs more changes.

His heal has an entierly different role late game, it's not to heal you allies, but mostly to give them the bonus movespeed to get away or to chase. Late game, I don't hesitate to place a heal underneath a full live ally so he can go faster and kill the guy he is chasing, or sometimes just to get an assist ^^

If the heal becomes relevant late game without charging, it would become too powerful, Bard is currently pretty good, the only thign that makes him meh in SoloQ is the fact that you never know who your adc will be.

A fat lawn gnome1 votes

{quoted}

EDIT: For those of you saying "bard is my favorite and he is already super strong and doesn't need any help," I don't believe any of you. If I loved playing the Bard I would want to go out there and dominate with him by having Riot make him as strong as possible. Your desire to play Bard but lack of desire to make him incredibly efficient at multiple phases of the game is both confusing and somewhat unbelievable.

Or maybe we just don't want more cancer becoming wtfop and then getting spammed every single game because you bronzies whine about champs you can't play as being "weak". Bard is behind only Thresh and Tahm Fatass in the "supports whose kits shouldn't even exist" category.

A) You're not gonna get his full potential in solo queue B) You're ESPECIALLY not gonna get his full potential in low elo solo queue C) Not every single part of a champions kit has to be strong for that champion to be good

You could simply remove the heal from it and leave the speedboost and it'd still be good. If you don't understand how good that speed boost + minor heal is for getting important people out of trouble in fights then you need to get way better at this game before talking about balance.

PapaGreg212 votes

[{quoted}](name=A fat lawn gnome,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hsNIHvMe,comment-id=001b,timestamp=2015-09-12T13:34:19.879+0000)

Or maybe we just don't want more cancer becoming wtfop and then getting spammed every single game because you bronzies whine about champs you can't play as being "weak". Bard is behind only Thresh and Tahm Fatass in the "supports whose kits shouldn't even exist" category.

A) You're not gonna get his full potential in solo queue B) You're ESPECIALLY not gonna get his full potential in low elo solo queue C) Not every single part of a champions kit has to be strong for that champion to be good

You could simply remove the heal from it and leave the speedboost and it'd still be good. If you don't understand how good that speed boost + minor heal is for getting important people out of trouble in fights then you need to get way better at this game before talking about balance.

I don't like to use cancer as a term to define things in a video game. I feel that is a hyperbole that is in bad taste.

Meep Man1 votes

What I personally think should happen, generalizing, is Bard should shift from: "Early Game Safe Lane Healer" to "Late Game Pseudo-Control Mage".

Zac x Me1 votes

bard is my favorite and he is already super strong and doesn't need any more unnecessary buffs

Terozu1 votes

"Bard is my favorite" says Zac x Me...

Markus Kruber1 votes

If u hide some healing shrines somewhere and keep stashing them it can help cus like end game 50 healing shrines would heal I tank I think

PapaGreg211 votes

{quoted}

If u hide some healing shrines somewhere and keep stashing them it can help cus like end game 50 healing shrines would heal I tank I think

You can only have three out at a time

Markus Kruber1 votes

Oh my bad

SpiritGear1 votes

1 word 'junglers' bards w is quite useful for them early levels

LaceUp231 votes

EDIT: For those of you saying "bard is my favorite and he is already super strong and doesn't need any help," I don't believe any of you. If I loved playing the Bard I would want to go out there and dominate with him by having Riot make him as strong as possible. Your desire to play Bard but lack of desire to make him incredibly efficient at multiple phases of the game is both confusing and somewhat unbelievable.

Ooooor they don't want him buffed to the point that rito completely guts him like every other champ that isn't their favorite #LC$BIGPLAY champs.

PapaGreg211 votes

{quoted}

Ooooor they don't want him buffed to the point that rito completely guts him like every other champ that isn't their favorite #LC$BIGPLAY champs.

Nope. The math doesn't work out. There are not that many bard mains out there and out of those mains I am sure very few go on the boards to write about things. Then out of that small number there are even fewer praying they don't make Bard too strong. Give me a break.

Keymeister1 votes

Keep in mind, us Bard players like where Bard is at, cause he is balanced, and has immense outplay potential, and is just FUN! If Riot goes and buffs him into Godmode, then they're subsequently gonna give him the Kench treatment (one of my other mains), and we'll lose our Bard. That's why we don't want Riot giving him a bunch of buffs. That's how it is for me, anyway

PapaGreg211 votes

I made this post 4 years ago when Bard was a lot weaker.

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