Will you nerf Riven and Irelia?

dEAdbUs·Jul 11, 2015·3 votes·883 views

You're nerfing Vlad while Riven/Irelia kill him on toplane without chances. Riven has one of highest (if no highest) pick/winrates on toplane in diamond. Irelia sits in permaban there. Pls look at toplane - it needs some attention.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond Expand it and you'll see that Riven has 52,3% winrate with 16,8% popularity (almost popular as Ahri on midlane) - this numbers make Riven #1 pick on toplane.

34 Comments

NemeBroJul 11, 20156 votes

{quoted}

You're nerfing Vlad while Riven/Irelia kill him on toplane without chances. Riven has one of highest (if no highest) pick/winrates on toplane in diamond. Irelia sits in permaban there. Pls look at toplane - it needs some attention.

http://www.lolking.net/charts?region=all&type=champion-winrate&range=monthly&map=sr&queue=1x1&league=diamond Expand it and you'll see that Riven has 52,3% winrate with 16,8% popularity (almost popular as Ahri on midlane) - this numbers make Riven #1 pick on toplane.

In that link you posted Riven isn't even on the top ten, which you posted.

Tryndamere isn't as popular but has the higher win rate, lol. So does Wukong.

Riven is good, but hardly overpowered.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

There is 3 toplane champions, or you comparing Riven's winrate with Janna's? Wuk and Trynd has almost same winrate, while together they have less pickrate than Riven.

Just winrate means nothing - one guy won one game and his champion now has 100% winrate. But if thousands of players are playing same champion and still have insane winrate - it means that champions is overpowered.

EndlessSorcererJul 11, 20152 votes

Or they work well in the current meta.

Or they are strong against popular picks.

Or itemization changes have benefitted them more than intended.

Or they are unpopular and are primarily played by people who main the champion.

Or they are used primarily as a counter-pick and only chosen when the situation benefits them.

Also, neither Irelia or Riven show up on the "Highest Winrates" you linked.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

Did you read my post? I wrote about it.

Irelia sits in permaban there. Expand it and you'll see that Riven has 52,3% winrate with 16,8% popularity (almost popular as Ahri on midlane) - this numbers make Riven #1 pick on toplane.

How should I feel when people who didn't read my post trying to say me something? Read, look, and only then answer!

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Or they work well in the current meta.

Ryze gone - he was main reason why Riven and Irelia werent popular in previous season.

NemeBroJul 11, 20152 votes

{quoted}

There is 3 toplane champions, or you comparing Riven's winrate with Janna's? Wuk and Trynd has almost same winrate, while together they have less pickrate than Riven.

Just winrate means nothing - one guy won one game and his champion now has 100% winrate. But if thousands of players are playing same champion and still have insane winrate - it means that champions is overpowered.

http://champion.gg/champion/Riven

Perhaps the most notable aspect of Riven is that, despite her high play rater, literally over a third of her players have over 125 games with her.

Nearly a fourth of her players have played 50-125 games with her.

Riven's playerbase has a disproportionate amount of "mains" playing her, probably the most disproportionate I can recall, which would naturally affect her win rate.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

So what? Same situation with Azir - its not a champion for every one, but he has burst + tons of mobility and utility, and if player can spent time to practice him, he becomes dangerous for the rest of players. And Azir is getting nerfs now on PBE. Riven should get nerfs too.

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So what? Same situation with Azir - its not a champion for every one, but he has burst + tons of mobility and utility. And if player can spent time to practice him, he becomes dagerous for the rest of players. And Azir is getting nerfs now on PBE. Same happens with Riven.

You're comparing a hot LCS pick to a champion that isn't actually ever used in the LCS.

Ever wonder why that is?

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

Because Azir needs teamwork while Riven is actually solo champion? Does it mean that soloQ should be imbalanced? And Riot siad that their balance based on proscene and Plat+ soloQ. So what?

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Because Azir needs teamwork while Riven is actually solo champion? Does it mean that soloQ should be imbalanced? And Riot siad that their balance based on proscene and Plat+ soloQ. So what?

It could also be because Azir just needs to farm to scale very well into late game, and Riven is required to snowball or she sucks.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

I've seen many games where Riven lost lane, but in 10 mins she was back. Dont forget that 30 cs = 2 kills.

Riven can suck vs well-orginized teams, but she's insane killer for bunch of random guys. Man I showed you DIAMOND stats, its not a bronze, its not a gold. My brother is a Diamond player. So I know what I'm talking about. This topic is minused only by silvers and golds who meet good Riven only if she's smurfing.

And if you'll open OP.GG what champs prefer toplaners? Rivens and Irelias! http://www.op.gg/ranking/ladder/ http://na.op.gg/ranking/ladder/

Pls find me a toplaner who doesnt play them.

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I've seen many games where Riven lost lane, but in 10 mins she was back. Dont forget that 30 cs = 2 kills.

Riven can suck vs well-orginized teams, but she's insane killer for bunch of random guys. Man I showed you DIAMOND stats, its not a bronze, its not a gold. My brother is a Diamond player. So I know what I'm talking about. This topic is minused only by silvers and golds who meet good Riven only if she's smurfing.

And if you'll open OP.GG what champs prefer toplaners? Rivens and Irelias! http://www.op.gg/ranking/ladder/ http://na.op.gg/ranking/ladder/

Pls find me a toplaner who doesnt play them.

Yeah, and I've seen many Rivens who lost lane and proceeded to not do anything all game. I've even watched streams of high elo nerds like Box Box getting carried because he got dominated in lane and couldn't come back in any meaningful fashion short of getting the occasional pick with a team mate.

I don't give a fuck if Faker is your boyfriend, lol. I know plat and diamond players who don't give a single shit about Riven, both in terms of me personally speaking to them and in terms of reading guides by them.

Yeah I see Rivens and Irelias there. Also Gnars, Rumbles, Hecarims (though I think he's more popular jungle now), Lissandra, etc. Riven seems to be more popular in KR than NA.

What's your point though? That Riven is played a lot? No shit.

Neo CyrusJul 11, 20155 votes

Not to mention: 1 - It's not data from this patch and therefore irrelevant right there. 2 - It includes data from Brazil which is useless, it's not comparable to NA/EU/KR/CN, that would have also made it irrelevant.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

This patch has 2 days. What stats do you want?
Brazil population is not so high to be impactful on this numbers.
read lcs interview "Vlad on pro scene", pro players said same as me - Vlad can be shotdown early.

Vlad need nerfs, but then he wont be playable on toplane at all, because Irel and Riven will kill him much easier.

Neo CyrusJul 11, 20151 votes

Those stats are not from this patch and you won't see any at least until tomorrow, even then they'll be diluted with mostly stats from the old patch. Brazil's numbers are plenty enough to throw everything off. Check other sites in a day or two for more accurate info.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

How this patch will affect Riven and Irelia stats?

Brazill 670k, EUW 2.2kk, Korea2.6k, how Brazil affects any numbers?

http://www.op.gg/statistics/tier/ http://euw.op.gg/statistics/tier/ http://br.op.gg/statistics/tier/

NA+EUW+EUNE = 4.8kk vs 670k of Brazil.

Neo CyrusJul 11, 20151 votes

It'll affect their stats because so much of the game has changed, massive item changes across the board will end up influencing a champion's success even if they don't use the items themselves. It'd be surprising if their win rates don't change.

There are many sites, you don't need to use LoLKing, just pick any one that let's you filter out what you don't want.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

AP items changed, nothing special for toplaners in this patch. I heard Singed can be strong now, but it needs to be proved. Rumble will be stronger, but he's mostly teamplay pick, not solo.

Rabid HuskyJul 11, 20151 votes

ok i see what your getting at give some legit balance suggestions that keep them both good and relevant while not causing them to fall into obscurity

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

They're always were imbalanced. But while Ryze was strong toplane pick, Riven and Irelia had no chances on toplane.

My suggestion? Rework! Both old with old designs. Their designs let them be only OP or unplayable.

Rabid HuskyJul 11, 20151 votes

so no actual suggestions? just rework because your tired of them? why not point a finger at freelo yi? he dominates lower teirs while a good portion of lower skill levels dont even know what to do with irelia and i do agree riven is a bit powerful she can be beaten by Singed Renekton Fiora XinZhao Tryndamere Teemo in fact vlad counters them both without real cc

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

Vlad doesnt counter them. Show me game in high elo where Vlad counters Irel or Riven. My D1 brother had 75% winrate with Vlad and he still prefer not to stay vs Irel or Riven.

Riven counters Trynd.

Teemo can beat only bad Riven.

Riven vs Fiora - skill matchup, not counter.

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted} Riven counters Trynd.

http://champion.gg/matchup/Tryndamere/Riven/Top

Riven vs Fiora - skill matchup, not counter.

http://champion.gg/matchup/Riven/Fiora/Top

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

So what? Is there any numbers about pickrates? 1500 vs Trynd, while 3900 vs Irelia and 3500 vs Renekton? Statistic needs huge number to be accurate. Fiora is so rare pick too.

Still 53% is not much to be true counter. Proof: check Trynd page where Riven positioned as one of best counters for Trynd.

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

So what? Is there any numbers about pickrates? 1500 vs Trynd, while 3900 vs Irelia and 3500 vs Renekton? Statistic needs huge number to be accurate. Fiora is so rare pick too.

Still 53% is not much to be true counter. Proof: check Trynd page where Riven positioned as one of best counters for Trynd.

Riven did not position as one of the best counters for Tryndamere. Know what's really not much of a true counter? Having a negative win rate against someone. Consistently.

dEAdbUsJul 12, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/matchup/Tryndamere/Riven/Top

Check it now.

Thats why I asked for LARGE number of games - 1-2 days and picture changed, and now Riven beats Trynd in 52% of games.

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

just to prove my position: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top

Riven 6th place with 52.45% winrated and 13.8% pickrate (picked more often than first five champions together), while Wuk has just 2% more winrate with 5 times less pickrate than Riven.

Irelia has close to Riven stats.

Btw Irelia has 20% banrate, Riven 10% banrate, while Trynd and Fiora have 1% banrate. Nuff said.

NemeBroJul 11, 20151 votes

{quoted}

just to prove my position: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=Top

Riven 6th place with 52.45% winrated and 13.8% pickrate (picked more often than first five champions together), while Wuk has just 2% more winrate with 5 times less pickrate than Riven.

Irelia has close to Riven stats.

Btw Irelia has 20% banrate, Riven 10% banrate, while Trynd and Fiora have 1% banrate. Nuff said.

We've already been over this. Riven has the highest number of mains playing her consistently than any other champion in the game, and these mains are the only players keeping her win rate afloat. And while the Riven mains' win rates with her are good, they are no better than the win rates of Wukong, Tryndamere, Singed, Darius, or Akali players with similar levels of experience.

dEAdbUsJul 12, 20151 votes

You know what statistics is? To see the trend, you need to analyze a large number of situations. the greater the number of situations - the more accurate you draw conclusions.

You showed me couple percents of games, and this cant prove anything because this numbers are not enough to make accurate conclusions.

Winrate with Wuk: 1 game / 1 win = 100% winrate Winrate with Riven: 10 games / 6 wins = 60% winrate. Conclusion: Wuk>Riven.

This is how you see things.

Example: what if all this players picked Wuk only when they had Yasuo in their team? This is can be a reason why Wuk was picked so rare. If we'll compare Yas and Wuk pickrate, you'll see that they're pretty close: http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend (75 and 83).

dEAdbUsJul 11, 20151 votes

This post was about Diamond elo, not low elos. Btw Riot won't balance game for low elos.

GunpointJul 11, 20151 votes

Vlad gets nerfed because he is toxic as hell. Trades with the enemy with unavoidable damage, heals the damage you traded with him back, if you try to go ham on him before he can gain it back, he goes untargetable. Not to mention the fact that he becomes tanky for building damage and vice versa so trying to counter his sustain with burst is even less effective because he becomes so tanky.

dEAdbUsJul 12, 20151 votes

http://eune.lolesports.com/articles/universal-recipient-vladimir-pro-play

Vladimir in the top lane isn't necessarily safe either. Head to head against Maokai -- that's ideal. Anything else, and he starts to flounder. Lilballz emphasizes caution and good jungle management when running Vladimir to break through tank lines. "Vlad has a really weak laning phase, especially facing champions like Irelia... Basically, he has a problem facing anything.