Which champions benefit more from 45% cdr instead of bonus penetration?

Zarkkast·Dec 24, 2015·3 votes·3,443 views

The only ones I can potentially think of are Ryze, Fizz and Riven.

Edit: and support champions, IF you play passively.

51 Comments

Stiv1234Dec 24, 20154 votes

Nasus, obviously.

Shuriman CuratorDec 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Nasus, obviously.

Yes, a million times yes. I've done it one game to try it out and it was ridiculous hahahaha

TheProAndrewDec 24, 20151 votes

2.2 sec Q Nasus =O

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus

Obviously, not.

AbyssphereDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

http://champion.gg/champion/Nasus

Obviously, not.

To be fair, they're nerfing the armor pen on Precision next patch. Maybe when that's not so overtuned he'll go for the CDR.

ProfDrDeathDec 25, 20152 votes

Possibly.

But, then again, his most efficient builds do not go for the Cunning tree at all.

Duke AnaxDec 24, 20154 votes

I'm not even sure about Ryze, his passive is only limited by animation rather than cooldown as it is.

ProfDrDeathDec 25, 20151 votes

I think that it is for simple uptime of his passive - he still has cooldowns if the passive is not procced.

Combine it with the fact that Ryze has a rather difficult time itemizing for full CdR (none of the 10% items is particularily useful to him, and he only gets 30% at level 16)...

The Yetii RiderDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I think that it is for simple uptime of his passive - he still has cooldowns if the passive is not procced.

Combine it with the fact that Ryze has a rather difficult time itemizing for full CdR (none of the 10% items is particularily useful to him, and he only gets 30% at level 16)...

Spirit Visage isn't good on Ryze? WotA isn't good on Ryze? I mean even Lich Bane has mana and gives more damage if you weave autos in.

YumaS2AstralDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Spirit Visage isn't good on Ryze? WotA isn't good on Ryze? I mean even Lich Bane has mana and gives more damage if you weave autos in.

Spirit Visage boosts the spellvamp that Ryze gains with his ult, but other than that it has very little use, as Ryze lacks natural sustain otherwise. It can be useful against APs, though.

WotA is a very good item for Ryze, but it is hard to fit on his build when you need so many other items.

Lich Bane could be good, but Ryze rarely has time to auto-attack between his spell casts. Also, his cooldowns are too low to allow him to take full advantage of the Spellblade proc.

The Yetii RiderDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Spirit Visage boosts the spellvamp that Ryze gains with his ult, but other than that it has very little use, as Ryze lacks natural sustain otherwise. It can be useful against APs, though.

WotA is a very good item for Ryze, but it is hard to fit on his build when you need so many other items.

Lich Bane could be good, but Ryze rarely has time to auto-attack between his spell casts. Also, his cooldowns are too low to allow him to take full advantage of the Spellblade proc.

If you really want 40% CDR, and you really have an issue "wasting" 10% CDR by building item 3025 or item 3110 , then you can suck it up and build any of these items. Health and MR are good on their own, regeneration is also very useful. An item is not only its unique passive, especially defensive items. They provide very useful stats, including CDR.

DeathBurstDec 25, 20153 votes

The problem with Spellvamp compared to Lifesteal is usually that magic damage is not sustained, so Spellvamp can't really give you survivability while your skills are on CD. That being said, I would think that Ryze is one of the few mages that could use Will of the Ancient effectively.

And even if he can't, I still think the magic pen is better on him. But I may be wrong, I'm no mage expert.

ProfDrDeathDec 25, 20151 votes

Yeah, Ryze is one of those mages that can really use WotA, not just because he is sustained damage, but also due to his single-target focus.

http://champion.gg/champion/Ryze

That being said, the data do not seem to indicate that Ryze is stronger with additional CdR. His most successful build do not show further CdR items...

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20151 votes

Think about this. Ryze with his ult up and Wota. With him AoEing a team and minions, he is unkillable unless CCed.

ErdamonDec 24, 20154 votes

Vladimir ayyy

VesarixxDec 24, 20151 votes

If only there were a few better CDR items for this guy

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Vladimir

Data says: Nope.

ErdamonDec 25, 20151 votes

It's not about the viabillity, it's about the annoyance

Nanuk PihoqahiakDec 25, 20151 votes

The data might say no, but Vladimir benefits greatly from having 45 percent cdr if only because he becomes nearly unkillable lategame. You have a 2s cooldown on Q and E and your pool is around 7. Combine this with Zhonya's and a combo looks something like:

Q > E > Q (dying) > W > Q > E > Zhonya's > W.

You can stay in the middle of a fight and guarantee that your damage is getting off. If you forego the 10-20 percent CDR for additional pen, it increases the likely hood that you'll be without a pool or even the additional sustain from Q.

And if we're talking strictly the Cunning tree, Thunderlord's Decree gives Vladimir a slightly better early game, something that holds him back.

CrettDec 24, 20153 votes

teemo likes it if you're going full mushroom mode

MunchCrunchLunchDec 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

teemo likes it if you're going full mushroom mode

1k AP teemo. I need to trie that.

ProfDrDeathDec 24, 20151 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Teemo

It is not on his most successful builds. However, as you say, it might be beneficial for the #!%?!-style of Teemo play.

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20151 votes

champion.gg is not the only source. Just because it's "not one of his most successful" doesn't mean it's not viable.

Illâoi Evê SiônDec 24, 20153 votes

Skar- Skar- Skarner! ~~1.5 seconds CD?~~ --> 1.375 seconds!
Priorities.

Shuriman CuratorDec 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Skar- Skar- Skarner! ~~1.5 seconds CD?~~ --> 1.375 seconds!
Priorities.

45% cdr on Skarner is amazing.

CrettDec 24, 20152 votes

45% cdr devourer + guinsoo skarner i need to see that

VesarixxDec 24, 20153 votes

It depends on the matchups as well, on Ahri I will want to take the flat penetration against squishy targets I can burst down, but if I'm agains something like a cho'gath or a team that I might need to kite quite a bit I might take the extra CDR and build as a kite mage.

GigglesODec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

The only ones I can potentially think of are Ryze, Fizz and Riven.

Edit: and support champions, IF you play passively.

I normally end up with 1600 ap on veigar... the pen doesn't help him that much.

Pierce The VealDec 25, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I normally end up with 1600 ap on veigar... the pen doesn't help him that much.

Yeah.

Although I don't play much veigar, I almost always find myself build 1-2 defensive items on him. Don't know how you're able to get away with a full damage build.

NazZomLordDec 25, 20152 votes

Ryze BWUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA SPAM EVERYTHING BREAK MY KEYBOARD Ekko Really helps when going for a tankier bruiser build Vladimir It can really help when you go full AP sustain Nautilus Full Tank Naut will allow just so much CC and can really stay on top of everything Riven Lucian Zyra Alistar Amumu Bend Over

TwigglesDec 24, 20151 votes

Zilean

Hayaishi2Dec 24, 20151 votes

Who needs that much CDR ?

AbyssphereDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Who needs that much CDR ?

You could say that about any number though, and CDR actually gets more valuable for every additional point you get so the upgrade from 40% to 45% is actually very good.

CorgiParadeDec 24, 20151 votes

Ahri could benefit from it quite nicely. Her Q is already on a semi-short cooldown, and an even longer cooldown is quite useful. The bonus penetration can be taken too, but I don't find it completely necessary because of the magic penetration she already gets from her items and runes.

Happy Gaming! [slayer-jinx-catface]

AkeneroDec 24, 20151 votes

Evelynn

TheLastShadow45Dec 24, 20151 votes

Lulu Soraka

CatastropDec 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Infinite shield for the win....provided it doesn't break.

TheLastShadow45Dec 25, 20151 votes

Not only that but glitter lance is so stupid with 45%. I watched a lulu on cowseps team 1v1 an Irelia who was full build and was sated, the lulu won.

TheProAndrewDec 24, 20151 votes

Ezreal Veigar Nasus Lux Azir Heimerdinger Vladimir Thresh (if u land a Q it goes into a 3.3 sec cd basically a perma-hook) Zilean Ziggs Zyra Xerath Jayce Ahri Karma those are the non-support champs that i think benefit more from 45% cdr more than extra armor/mag penetration

DinkoDec 25, 20151 votes

I'd think perhaps Ezreal or Nasus would do pretty well with 45% cdr, maybe Riven as well.

Sire HippingtonDec 25, 20151 votes

Utillity/support focused champs do like it, though a big problem is the 'tree-border'. If I could pick up the 45% cdr and still get a tank-keystone like grasp of the undying, i would prefer it over legendary guardian on tanks like malph, gallio or naut, and obviouslly on sups like nami, janna or lulu, but i totally agree that 5%cdr most of the time feels worse than the hybrid pen. A huge buff to it would be increasing the cdr to 5%+5% at 18 aswell as the 45%cap, this would allow once again to hit the cap with cdr runes. Or adding 10% item-cdr...

BhagswagDec 25, 20151 votes

I want as much penetration as I can get. It just feels right.

AckelopeDec 25, 20151 votes

Ezreal, maybe? Although honestly Ez can benefit heavily from both, the flat pen is real nice as well.

l Helios lDec 25, 20151 votes

True damage dealers like Fiora. Anyone who isn't really reliant on pen that much like malphite, sion, etc. if you run thunderlords on them. Pen is only really good when people start stacking armor/mr. Also you have to think it's a hybrid mastery, so if you champ deals 0 magic damage or 0 physical damage, it's probably not worth investing in over the cdr.

DorkunedAurasDec 25, 20151 votes

given that it's flat pen, it's actually always good, as everyone has a bit of defenses to break through. and right now the stats are so strong that even if you only do 1 type of damage, it's worth.

l Helios lDec 25, 20151 votes

I'll get back to you once I finish some math for this. Christmas is busy so be patient. My point will revolve around it being a scaling hybrid pen amount vs. a flat cdr amount.

Edit: Ok, I'm good now.

The problem with the mastery is that it isn't a flat amount but rather a scaling one. If you look at it and say "Oh shit, it gives 14 armor pen and 8.4 magic pen!" it sounds really nice. But that's only applying at level 18. At level one, you have 5 armor pen and 3 magic pen, which is the equivalent of 5% of the target's effective armor health as bonus damage and 3% of the target's effective magic health as bonus damage. The way armor/mr works is based on each point giving 1% bonus health against a specific type of damage, i.e. armor for physical and mr for magic damage. True damage is the negation of all effective health and focusing just on the base health.

So with that in mind, say you're Zed hitting an Orianna with an auto-attack with the precision mastery. Her armor at level one is calculated as 17.04 base + 9 armor seals = 26.04 armor at level one. You will deal an additional 5% to her based on that physical attack vs. her armor effective health. Her effective health at this point is equal to 652.53 against physical attacks (100% of base health + 26.04% of that health added when hit by physical attacks), you reduce her effective health to 21.04% to physical attacks, which can seem like a lot. It's not even bad arguably. Her base health at 517.72, which would mean her effective health for physical attacks is 652.53 hp {26.04% of 517.72 + 517.72 = 652.53}, which you fundamentally reduce to 626.65 {26.04 - 5} hp, the equivalent of 25.88 health dealt as bonus damage with that one auto attack, roughly 37% of an Ignite at level one.

But here are the problems:

That amount is the equivalent of a fraction of an auto attack from you (still under the assumption you are playing Zed, but even then, the lowest I could find is Orianna actually with a base of 40.037 AD, which is still more than enough damage). Zed's base AD at level 1 is 54.712, and after adding in the runes, it is 69.712. One auto attack from Zed against Orianna's effective health at this amount reduces it (her health) to a lower amount than the armor pen could at level one. Zed's base damage scales at an amount equal to 3.4 attack damage per level, so he should reach 127.512 AD at level 18, counting only the runes {(54.712 + 15 + (3.4 * 17) = 127.512}. Orianna's armor scaling is equal to an amount of 3 per level, at level 18 being 77.04 with the 9 armor seals {(17.04 + [17 * 3] + 9) = 77.04}. Her effective health at this point is equal to 1,860.72 (after full HP scaling is added) * 0.77 + 1,860.72 = 3,294.22 health against physical attacks. Your pen at this point is equal to 13.5 armor pen, which reduces her 77.04 to 63.54, which leaves her with 1,860.72 * 0.6354 + 1,860.72 = 3,043.02 effective health. This is a difference of 251.2 health, which is the difference between two auto-attacks from you, 69.3% of one Q, or 61.27% of an Ignite. Overall, that damage increase is not that significant considering it is uncommon for fights late game to be decided by a sliver of health to this degree, despite common belief. This is especially true in full 5 v 5 team-fights. Does such a thing happen? Sure, but it is not common place as most team-fights are decided by landslides.
The lack of a scaling nature of the CDR actually makes it relevant throughout the game. Having a flat 5% at level one is actually a big deal, especially when you can take an additional 5% in glyphs to give you a full 10% at level one like most Rivens will do. In most situations, having a skill up that will deal the needed damage amount up in 10% less time is actually really significant, especially when that helps you reach your 45% late game, if your build path permits it. I don't think you should make game-changing decisions with funky builds to make this 45% happen however. Don't build a frozen heart on Orianna just to get that last 20% or something (intentionally using a crazy example).
The inclusion of magic pen along with armor pen is really quite a hindrance. Essentially, if you take this mastery on someone like a Zed or a Vayne (not counting the RFC and Shiv proc damage, but even so...) or anyone like that who deals only one type of damage (in these examples physical), you waste the magic pen you paid for in your mastery page. It's always inefficient to purchase inefficient stats or stats that go to waste, i.e., you would never buy a Frozen Heart if you already had 30% CDR because you would be overcapping by 10%, assuming you aren't running the CDR mastery. The cost of that CDR is factored into the overall cost of the item, and it is a waste of money if you're buying stats that you can't use. You're better off buying something like an Ohmwrecker or a Zeke's so that you don't waste your money on useless stats. Same principle applies to not building more crit on Yasuo after you reach 100%; it doesn't make sense since you can't use the extra crit (no such thing as 150% crit chance). The same idea goes for unusable damage; if you can't deal magic damage, why buy magic pen for that nonexistent damage? The cost of the mastery is factored both by the magic and armor pen, so both influence it. Paying the whole cost for half the benefit makes no sense imo.

Hope this explanation helps you see my point. Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays :)

DorkunedAurasDec 26, 20151 votes

One: Holy crap, I love all this math. Secondly, I believe that late game 14 ArPen is great, given how much pen AD assassins stack, it could break the threshold of true damage to squishies, which is significant. Assassins don't really need CDR as much, as they're all about the one combo, so CDR increases their opportunities to go in, but not their ability to actually kill. Because thunderlords is THE burst damage mastery, they're getting either Precision or (what was the other one called?) 5% CDR. They have to get one. They pick the logical choice.

magic poleDec 25, 20151 votes

Vladimir Leblanc

with his sustain vlad doesn't need the pen...he can just sustain in lane better and have pool up more often in fights. both are good but flat cdr is too good in lane for vlad !

and leblanc...well tbh she already has absurd damage so i think she;d get more use out of having her cool downs up more often rather than a tad extra damage