Can we get more ap/cdr itemization that does not have mana involved?

Zarkkast·Dec 22, 2015·79 votes·3,292 views

Or buff the ones that do give mana? (Or both?)

As it currently stands: Shit Good, but it's getting nerfed Decent Great item, but only built on a small niche of champions

Vlad is nearly the only one who builds it Excellent item, but same as Lich Bane

Every ad carry gets to have 30% free cdr and often when I'm playing mage I'm either sitting at 0% or 20% with Morello. This makes even less sense when you consider that cdr is more valuable on mages than in most ad carries.

I honestly cannot wait for the revamp on AP itemization, cause right now ad itemization is just so much better that it's not even funny.

105 Comments

EndlessSorcererDec 22, 201513 votes

CDR is often linked to mana (regeneration) items due to their purpose: to allow champions to use their abilities more frequently.

It doesn't matter how often you can use your abilities if you run out of mana, so the items often include mana (regen) to sustain their use in the long run.

If your champion does not use mana, then you don't have that limitation. While you may not benefit from the mana (regeneration) on the item, you don't need it for continued ability use.

J EpsteinDec 23, 20151 votes

Run out of Mana? item 3027 item 3003

MyrzaDec 23, 20151 votes

if you take both Athene's and Archangels, you basically have unlimited mana XD ofc, it takes ages to build, so...

DarkSunSovereignDec 23, 20154 votes

Thats why it's Rod of AGES!

Ok I'll go now.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 22, 201512 votes

Why is athene's bad? IMO it's better, the MR and the better mana regen are better then the 20 AP and situational grevious wounds morellos has

ZarkkastDec 22, 20154 votes

Because there is nearly no champion that actually needs that much mana regeneration. More often than not you can count on having blue buff for the mana problems.

I cannot remember the last time I saw an Athene that wasn't a ARAM match. It's a great item for ARAM because you can't recall and go back with full mana.

The AP is low, Morello gives way more damage. The MR is low, Abyssal is so incredibly better.

And on top of it all, it is A LOT more expensive than Morello and Abyssal.

ModWulf HelhammerDec 22, 20158 votes

I build it. If I have an AP champ that doesn't build mana, I usually get it, unless their entire team is AD

20 AP isn't much. You're either going to kill someone or you're not at that point.

If not having the ability to recal is why you get it in ARAM, why is not having to recal not a benefit for SR?

It's for squishies, it's not going to have a ton of MR on it, but it offers survivability with utility, damage, and sustain, so of course it's not going to be cheap

And no, you can't always count on blue buff. Oftentimes the jungler needs it, or you're not doing well enough to be worth giving it too (i.e., you'd most likely give it to the enemy). Blue buff also has a duration: athenes doesn't

ZarkkastDec 22, 20153 votes

I get what you mean, I just don't often have mana problems with my mages, maybe it's my style of play.

As of now, the only champions I would build Athene's on are Kassadin, Swain, Galio, Syndra and Orianna (but I reckon that is because I'm not a good Orianna player)

S H A Y C 0Dec 23, 20151 votes

Kassadin Anivia Velkoz Ryze My work here is done...no need to continue.

ZarkkastDec 23, 20151 votes

Do you honestly build Athene on Ryze?

Like, seriously.

OshletDec 24, 20151 votes

I assume it would be primarily for the godly 30% mana on kills which would let ryze continue machine-gunning people down.

Mestm97Dec 23, 20152 votes

I used to think the same, but the magic resit is kinda meh, should increase at least5 when upgraded.

Very Hard EngageDec 22, 20158 votes

we need a.... 120AP 10% CDR item

something that just yells...... DAMAGES!

ZarkkastDec 22, 20156 votes

Yes, one of the reasons dfg was so good is because it gave cdr.

It was indeed overpowered, but we need something else that gives cdr.

Very Hard EngageDec 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Yes, one of the reasons dfg was so good is because it gave cdr.

It was indeed overpowered, but we need something else that gives cdr.

its not the stats, it was the active which gave people 20% extra damage on what they were about to do. in addition to removing 15% of a tanks health (true damage % health)

ZarkkastDec 22, 20153 votes

Yes, that was the overpowered part. But ever since it got removed and Athene got so drastically nerfed mages also suffered with cdr.

OshletDec 24, 20151 votes

It was actually magic %health damage

The Yetii RiderDec 22, 20156 votes

You acknowledge that CDR is good on mages but you refuse to build sub-optimal items that have 20% CDR because you value the rest of their stats independent of the CDR.

That's not how balance works.

Morello and Athene's have a large portion of their power budget invested in that 20% CDR. It's a stat. On AP champions, it is an expensive stat. Just like on AD champions, mana regen is an expensive stat (Muramana only gives 25% mana regen).

A 100-120 AP item that gives CDR is not going to happen. You either get more burst or more sustained damage, not both.

FistOfSharkieshaDec 22, 20153 votes

We aren't asking for some sort of super gold efficient item that just gives free CDR, we're asking for an option to get CDR without being forced to buy worthless and expensive mana regen. Tear users, people who are good at managing mana, people who are good at stealing blue buff etc are fucked over because they have no means of buying CDR without wasting money on regen.

QuephaDec 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

We aren't asking for some sort of super gold efficient item that just gives free CDR, we're asking for an option to get CDR without being forced to buy worthless and expensive mana regen. Tear users, people who are good at managing mana, people who are good at stealing blue buff etc are fucked over because they have no means of buying CDR without wasting money on regen.

You shouldn't also get to buy better items because you don't have mana pools, not having a mana pool is already an advantage.

My Waifu VanillaDec 23, 20152 votes

Some champions like Kennen really enjoy having atleast ONE option for CDR though since you can more realistically chain your W's to each other (0.25 seconds is NOT enough time to get it off consistently).

OneSmoothDudeDec 22, 20152 votes

{quoted}

We aren't asking for some sort of super gold efficient item that just gives free CDR, we're asking for an option to get CDR without being forced to buy worthless and expensive mana regen.

I say this as a Garen and Vlad main: There's a reason there aren't too many options to get 40% CDR.

The Yetii RiderDec 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

We aren't asking for some sort of super gold efficient item that just gives free CDR, we're asking for an option to get CDR without being forced to buy worthless and expensive mana regen. Tear users, people who are good at managing mana, people who are good at stealing blue buff etc are fucked over because they have no means of buying CDR without wasting money on regen.

The efficient item that gives CDR without mana regen is item 3152 . You guys don't build that either because "I'm wasting money on spell vamp", even though it gives 80 AP and 10% CDR, which is what you wanted in the first place.

morris1Dec 22, 20155 votes

{quoted}

cdr is more valuable on mages than in most ad carries.

That is the point. I don't wanna sound one-sided, and trust me I play a lot of mages, but if every mage could have 40/45% cdr by 30 minutes like marksmen do now it would be a disaster. That would also be the reason why Nashor's gives the most attack speed in the game and is used by the "niche" sort of mages, and it gives more attack speed than any item can to a marksman.

ZarkkastDec 22, 20152 votes

You do bring a great point, but I don't quite buy the Nashor argument.

It is the biggest attack speed item now, after the adc itemization revamp and Zephyr removal. Before, when all things were not updated, it wasn't.

I think Nashor's case is more of a lack of update kind of thing and that it will change once Riot updates ap itemization.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 22, 20153 votes

{quoted}

You do bring a great point, but I don't quite buy the Nashor argument.

It is the biggest attack speed item now, after the adc itemization revamp and Zephyr removal. Before, when all things were not updated, it wasn't.

I think Nashor's case is more of a lack of update kind of thing and that it will change once Riot updates ap itemization.

we're talking mages here. how many mages are used as aaers in this game. auto attackers. idk i can name a cpl. diana. actually just 1. maybe you can build it on an AP ezreal.

Auz the RipperDec 23, 20151 votes

Diana Kayle Teemo and Azir all get it alot

plus Fizz MasterYi Jax XinZhao and Lulu don't get it alot but all have 60%+ winrates with it

surprisingly Yi has a 72% winrate with it

MunchCrunchLunchDec 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Auz the Ripper,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REzOjM7z,comment-id=0006000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-23T04:50:46.993+0000)

and all get it alot

plus and don't get it alot but all have 60%+ winrates with it

surprisingly Yi has a 72% winrate with it

jax is hybrid. you could go better. its not terrible. but at that point he should tank and not buy it. xin zhao. same thing. yi. well he doesn't use AP as much as the rest inefficient. fizz. he doesn't really depend on auto attacks. kayle is hybrid. and that lulu build is just funny idk if it works or not.

am talking about mages here. the only mage of all these is azir and diana.

FistOfSharkieshaDec 22, 20153 votes

More disastrous than a Yasuo having ~230% damage AA modifier 20 minutes into the game, with the bonus Q damage? item 3087 item 3031

Gnart Even CloseDec 22, 20154 votes

part of the reason they don't is that someone manaless ap champions (i.e. Vladimir) could abuse them since they can infinitely spam their abilities without any cost. by forcing them to spend gold on a stat they don't want, it places a gate on them in place of being gated by mana. however, i definitely agree that the current CDR mana / mana regen items do need to be buffed. maybe morello could make the grievous wounds last longer and proc when under 50% health? maybe athene's could get more damage? WOTA has a lot of problems on it, and Riot doesn't want to buff it because of Vladimir. Maybe what they could do with it instead is give it mana regen or mana and increase the price so that it can compete with morello / athene's? if they got put in roughly the same stat category, then the choice would be based off of which passive is more useful instead of which one has better gold efficiency / stats.

ZarkkastDec 22, 20152 votes

How many times did you see Vladimir buying DFG though?

Other than Vladimir we have Akali and Katarina, neither of which are really beneficial of CDR.

Edit: I completely forgot about Kennen and Rumble, but I don't think it would be a problem on them either. Rumble because of his passive and Kennen because he already has small cooldowns. Except maybe for their ultimates, but if it happens it's possible to find a way around that.

disregardableDec 22, 20153 votes

The CDR runes do exist for a reason. I do think Morello could use a buff now that GW have been nerfed though, because it doesn't feel very good to build anymore.

FlippyGoneTrippyDec 22, 20152 votes

Like a lot of other people said... Because no one wants to face a Fizz with his E CD on 4.5s or an LB with her ult on 15. They have to choose between tons of damage or maxed CDR. People can deal with a max CDR ADC because they gotta use their autos to kill you.

FistOfSharkieshaDec 22, 20152 votes

Fizz already gets 45% cdr. Lich Bane and morello are core on him and he can use blue buff, lucidity boots, or just 2 quints to achieve the cap.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 22, 20152 votes

am thinkinh. 100 AP.

20% cdr.

5% movement speed.

10 Magic penertation.

passive: after using an ability against an enemy champion recover 4% of your missing mana.

idk price like 3400.

FistOfSharkieshaDec 22, 20152 votes

item 3070 Users are completely shit out of luck as it is. Orianna and Veigar would be excellent tear chargers and Veigar's passive works beautifully with mana, but they want CDR so they never build it. Wouldn't kill them to give magic users CDR options without tacking on mana regen.

QuephaDec 22, 20152 votes

We don't need more reasons to play manaless champs.

The DeckownerDec 22, 20152 votes

every new ad items gives cdr now cause rito love zed so much(for example ghostblade, deaths dance,black cleaver)

Pentarina OnlyDec 22, 20152 votes

100% agree!

Its ACUDec 23, 20152 votes

How is Athene's shit? I still see it routinely built by lux, galio, anivia, and kassadin(and more). The mana resets are what is great about it, and that should be taken into account when looking at the item's value not just the raw stats it provides.

FroosterDec 23, 20152 votes

They dont want Vladimir Katarina Akali to abuse that kind of item.

The FastDec 23, 20151 votes

Kat and akali can't really abuse CDR. If katarina is doing her job, CDR is her worst stat, and Akali would run out of energy before she could spit.

FroosterDec 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=REzOjM7z,comment-id=00150000,timestamp=2015-12-23T21:52:30.286+0000)

Kat and akali can't really abuse CDR. If katarina is doing her job, CDR is her worst stat, and Akali would run out of energy before she could spit.

True but that still leaves Vladimir and we know how much Rito likes him.

TransgressorDec 23, 20152 votes

What we need is:

AP+Armor that doesn't build into a Zhonyas AP+Magic Resist that doesn't build into an Abyssal

Magic resist viable without stricted to mana regeneration, like Spirit Visage is viable with all AD champions without soaking from their power budget. Health with either of the defensive options, without it having to set back our power spikes and performance curves like Rod of Ages does for example.

We want the flexibility in early defensive stats like the AD itemization has, without it meaning we have to spent a metric fuckton of gold on a nerfed Zhonyas and be useless for most of the game, the same way AD itemization allows for immensive early/mid game flexibility.

We want spellvamp to be FINALLY reworked to be onpar with lifesteal, so that it's viable for everyone and not just champions that are made for it like Vladimir and Morgana. As it is, spellvamp works well from either: extremely high single target damage OR normal damage spread amongst multiple units(spamming spells on minions to heal/bursting someone as an assasin).

TL:DR Fix the fucking game.

Slamurai JackDec 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Shit

Lol.

CanidaeDec 23, 20152 votes

You also kinda already answered why CDR is harder to get on mages than ad champs; that it being much more valuable on them. They want to force a trade-off between raw power and vastly increased utility.

That's why I currently use 15% scaling CDR runes. For mah support's there's enough for meh to get 45% by level 12, but for mah AP mid's I'll probably start running 25% scaling CDR runes.

also there's item 3050 but this one is much more support orientated

Universal BoopDec 23, 20151 votes

I build item 3174 on most mid laners, i've always liked the item and find getting 30% mana back on kill or assist to be pretty awesome late game in prolonged team fights where you're spamming spells. Aka Syndra

KaipopDec 23, 20152 votes

Syndra needs it to sustain her mana, but many champions do not need the extra mana on kill or assist passibe and its wasted

J EevoDec 23, 20151 votes

Would be nice so fringe cases that don't like mana regen (or just don't need it because they have a mana regen item already) can reach cooldown cap Kennen is completely effed in that regard and is still being ignored >.>