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@Riot, Cassiopeia - the forgotten one, need of VU/QoL changes

Zarkkast··24 votes·18,767 views

Cassiopeia is my favourite champion but her current state is not the best. And I don't mean only because the current meta doesn't allow champions like her to shine.

Let's start with her in-game model.

This is it: http://i.imgur.com/hSejHJz.png

It totally gives an obvious answer to classic line: "don't you find me beautiful?"

While it's nice she receive a splash art upgrade her texture hasn't changed since and she still looks like her old splash.

This was her old splash: http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=1012761&d=1405131067

Pretty awful.

This is her current one: http://ddragon.leagueoflegends.com/cdn/img/champion/splash/Cassiopeia_0.jpg

Now I can see she's actually beautiful.

As you can see, her ingame model still looks like the old splash art: her claws are black (in the new splash they're gold), the jewelry on her head is black (in the new splash they're red, be noted that this is wrong even for her old splash which shows purple jewelry) and she still has those weird lines coming out of her hip. Also the details on her bra and hip armor also reflect the old spash. But on top of it all: her face looks horrid. It just looks awful, awful, awful. Also her scales don't look at all like scales. For comparison this are her Mythical and Jade Fang models:

http://i.imgur.com/aZHYNA0.png http://i.imgur.com/2zukWry.png

These two models look beautiful, you really want to play Cassiopeia when she looks like this. She looks like an actual serpent. Her scales look realistic and her face is really pretty.

I know she's in no way priority. There are champions there that need a VU much more than her, I mean, look at Sion, for instance. But the main reason I'm creating this is that Cassiopeia looks really bad, but not bad enough to be remembered, I have never seen any rioter commenting on a visual upgrade for her and I really do think she needs one. Also, since we're talking about ingame model, her tail movement is very awful. I mean, look at Vel'koz and then look at her and you'll see it's possible to make her tail look much more realistic.

In case you were wondering, her other two skins models also look rather bad, specially Desperada, whose dress looks like it's a part of her body, but still the main problem remain at face and scales (also, the rattlesnake rings are really poorly made):

http://i.imgur.com/n7UXok1.png http://i.imgur.com/PJt3G98.png

EDIT: Brought up by Flemman, when Cassiopeia dies she switches automatically to her classic skin model (except when using Jade Fang skin) Video of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXm5YPVEDU 1:36 You can see that when Mythic Cassiopeia breaks she becomes her classic model (pay attention to her head).

Now, as for quality of life, Cassiopeia really needs minor changes that will make playing her feel like you're playing against other people, not against the game:

  1. Her Twin Fangs ("E") need to consider the cooldown reset on cast, not on enemy hit. Why? Sometimes you cast your E on an enemy and before it hits it the poison ends and the cooldown doesn't reset. ALSO: if you cast your E on a target and it dies before your E hits it also doesn't reset. Now, I don't know if many of you guys play Cassiopeia, but a missing E reset in the middle of a team fight can often mean her death. (I'm not saying the cooldown reset should be applied on cast, but that the binary system of reset should be considered on cast: Is the target poisoned? Yes - reset. No - doesn't reset.)
  2. Her Q hitbox needs to be more clear, the same problem with Karthus before his rework. This not only helps Cassiopeia, but people playing against her, cause more often than not the poison will apply even if the target doesn't look like it was hit. You guys should add the size of the hitbox the same way you did for miasma ("W"). If you play Cassiopeia using the Jade Fang skin this isn't much of a problem because the spell animation is clearer, but a hitbox size is still needed.
  3. The delay on her ultimate makes it really easy to be dodged or cc'd. Several times I ulted and was, for instance, hit by Tristana's ultimate and my ultimate instead of going the direction I wanted too went to a completely different direction, meaning that not only it went on cooldown, but also it hit nothing. And obviously resulted in my death.
  4. Her ultimate hitbox is problematic (taken from this thread: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/live-gameplay/oK21Zbjg-riot-remember-cassiopeia) http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=888550&d=1391354284 "As we can see, enemies like Lee Sin who can easily jump unto Cassiopeia automatically avoid getting hit by Petrifying Gaze. Sure, you might say that's intended due to the animation but I'd like to raise another question." http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=888549&d=1391354276 "How come something like this is allowed to exist? Lee is clearly getting damaged despite staying BEHIND the source of Luxana's laser. Why can't Cassiopeia recieve the same treatment?"

I really hope some of you address this, because I have never seen any of you talk about Cassiopeia and it's really awful how you guys put certain champions on a pedestal while completely ignoring other champions' existance.

29 Comments

RiotIronStylus19 votes

I think we could get away with probably at least a TU until we really have the tools to make that slither really feel good. Her texture gives me a migraine..

Rastamon Ganja1 votes

Couldn't you use the same tech that you used on Vel'koz tentacles for her slither?

Lord Graves III10 votes

They didn't use tech. They tried and failed. Their animation engine didn't work out so they did what they always do. They ended up hand animating all of Vel'Koz's tentacles.

No engine, no tricks. Just animators making kick ass tentacles. I hold an immense deal of respect for Riots animators.

RiotRiot Whist9 votes

I wasn't here when Vel was animated, but if I recall correctly the guy who animated him also worked on Zac and Heimer VU to name a few. He's really awesome at animating and always goes the extra mile.

RiotRiot Whist7 votes

Vel'koz uses no special tech that I'm aware of. Those tentacles are hand animated. The same with Cass's tail.

Tentacles/snake tails are rough due to the long joint chains through them. They're pretty taxing to animate, but more importantly almost impossible to engine blend between animation sets without very noticeable unwanted problems (like their tail straightening out). With Bipeds you might get a foot slide, but that's not as noticeable as a giant tail, and sometimes even works okay like the character just put their foot back into position. You never slide your tail back into position as a snake-lady. That's what all your weights on so it has to slither.

Vel'koz was animated the way he was to avoid these issues as much as possible. Luckily I think this helped give him a much more unique way he moves with his tentacles that rather than them just trailing behind him.

There are some tricks we could try on Cass to help alleviate some of the problems when the time comes. Back in her day we didn't even have "idle-ins" which is an animation that plays before a character goes into their idle. This is typically a settling animation. You can see it on all new characters simply by moving and stopping.

Cass animation spotlight:

Canastus2 votes

How come the model in the editor is superior in terms of textures and overall aesthetics compared to the one you decided to use ingame? Her face and scales appear to be a lot cleaner and crisper in there, also the colors on the tail seem to fit her a lot more. So why did you decide to go with the inferior model/design?

PhailRaptor2 votes

Imho the thing that has always bothered me most about Cassi is her movement animation. But not because of the tail itself. It's the fact that, when she goes to move, her hips do not "fall" down to the ground. With her current animations, it almost looks like she has her legs together, and is slaloming downhill on a pair of rollerblades hidden inside the tail, rather than using the tail to slither along the ground. It looks incredibly silly and goes against basically every single portrayal of the Medusa archetype I've ever seen. It basically looks like, when Cassi was put together, they took a human from the hips up, and attached it to a snake from the neck down. This is convenient, because it allows her to retain more of a "human" height, but it just plain looks bad.

How I imagine it, using the above LoLking model viewer screenshots from the OP, is that central point at the bottom of the gold hip-band armor piece should almost be touching the ground when she slithers, as she rolls her weight forward out of the "perching" I'm-gonna-strike-you stance that is her current "standing" animation set. All her movement would be in this lower stance, then when she comes to a stop again, she'd roll back up.

The only reason I can potentially think of that might be bad for this approach would be further confusion over the size and placement of her hitbox, because in addition to her having a long tail inflating it's length in front of and behind her, you're now also messing with her visual height.

There are some tricks we could try on Cass to help alleviate some of the problems when the time comes. Back in her day we didn't even have "idle-ins" which is an animation that plays before a character goes into their idle. This is typically a settling animation. You can see it on all new characters simply by moving and stopping.

Can we talk about this a bit? Iirc this started with the TF update (or at least that was the first one I noticed). His in particular is really jarring, given how sudden it is and how huge it is. And it's not the only one. Lucian feels kind of awkward at times as well, purely due to how massively pronounced, and how suddenly they play. For TF specifically, given his moderately slow speed, he pulls up as if he were running really fast as opposed to that easy gait he's doing, then does that sort of hop-step like he's trying to catch his balance -- but he was never going anywhere near that fast in the first place.

Can we go back and tone some of those down a bit, and try not to go overboard in the future?

Canastus2 votes

I don't think a TU can make up for her inferior modeling, for one it's contradicting her current splash-art (as detailed by the OP, her sickles for instance should be replaced with actual hip-plating) and furthermore it's lacking essential details such as the surface of her bra (you could say it's literally painted onto her skin).

The image-file embedded in this post should give a good idea of what I mean. I'd also love for Cassiopeia to recieve new voice-lines and interactions which is part of any VU, a simple TU would destroy any chance of that ever happening.

AbiwonKenabi1 votes

I honestly think a Texture Update and a slight model tweak could do wonders for Cass. Sure, the underlying problems with her slithering tail probably require more than that, but just take a look at Sona on PBE right now. They tweaked her model and she's got brand new textures and she looks GREAT. That's all without having to take the resources to make an entirely new champion, like a Visual Update would require.

The Sona TU if you're interested: http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pgq0Pw1I0CM/U8cD34EFdJI/AAAAAAAAT_w/gw2kvw9dhrY/s1600/livevspbe.jpg

Canastus1 votes

If they'd settle for a TU it would only seal her fate. They'd be satisfied with their little update and leave her untouched for the rest of time, never to recieve a VU. Cassiopeia is one of those old champions who entirely pale in terms of diversity compared to newer champions who have tons of voice-acting at their disposal and all kinds of champion-interactions. Only a VU can get her up-to-date to those other champions (see Garen, Yi, Nasus, Twitch and Karthus after their VU).

I wouldn't want to lose out on that for anything in the world. And to be honest, I've grown quite tired of hearing her current lines over and over again. So please, for the love of god, no TU for Cassiopeia - aim straight for the VU.

Mad Hit Monkey1 votes

I think we could get away with probably at least a TU until we really have the tools to make that slither really feel good. Her texture gives me a migraine..

No Promises?

Zarkkast1 votes

Thank you for the reply. :3

I agree, I don't think she needs THAT much work, specially because two of her five skins are of really good model quality. She only needs a retexturing and a better animation Vel'koz style for her tail.

Plus some QoL changes mentioned.

exec34 votes

Been saying the E reset check needs to happen on cast for a while now, so frustrating and unfair. I'd also be curious about removing the cast animation on her Q too given it's suppose to be used for chasing (removing the cast animation did wonders for Maokai's W).

Flemman4 votes

not forget to mention that, when she die, she switch automatically to her base skin :s

Zarkkast2 votes

OMFG. I NEVER NOTICED THAT.

Maybe it's because I've always played the Jade Fang skin and it doesn't have that error, but I was just watching some videos and oh my god, that's awful. Rito pls fix this.

Video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNXm5YPVEDU at 1:36 when she dies you can clearly see it.

Serpents Embrace3 votes

A VU would be pretty nice. Especially since the work on Vel'Koz tentacles probably gave animators a lot of insight on how to animate a non-human appendage...

That said, it seems like she's pretty low on the list in urgency. :(

Also I'd love indicators for her Q, although I think it would help her opponents a lot more. (They need the chance anyway) As for the E reset... It's a tough call. It often cast my Q and E at the same time to get damage quickly while still getting the reset, and that change would prevent me from doing that. But having a target die while in the air can be just as problematic.

As for Lux ultimate hitting someone behind her - the hitbox goes that way. But Cassi's isn't so simple. Cassi also checks if people are looking at her. Thematically, the stun comes from gazing upon a gorgon's visage (their face) but someone facing her when SHE'S turned shouldn't stun either. I suppose they could make an PBAoE around her that only slows but that's not QoL, that's just a buff.

Zarkkast2 votes

I understand what you are saying and I agree with that. Thematically it doesn't make much sense, but if Lux can have special treatment then why can't Cass? The least they can do is change Lux's ultimate hitbox too, if they're not gonna change Cass'. There are probably other hitboxes problems like that when it comes to cone skill shots, someone woulf need to look into that.

And I agree with what you said about the E, to be honest, any good Cass will cast Q/W and E almost at the same time, so it would definitely take some getting used to, but for quality of life reasons I think she suffers more with the reset counting on hit.

Linna Excel3 votes

If they did work on her model, what do they do with that weird hat thingy. I don't see why she's wearing it because I don't see Katarina wearing anything that awful on the top of her head.

Yeah I get the snake-like stuff, but I'd personally prefer that her base skin have something more in line with Katarina, but with a snake's tail. It isn't like she can't wear all of her old tops all of a sudden.

Even if that means they both need an update towards the same basic style, I think that'd be better than Cass as is. Don't get me wrong, her original direction was okay back in the day, but I kind of expect more thematic cohesion from riot now. Plus she can always get a traditional skin in the worst case scenario.

PRN2 votes

In the lore, Cassiopeia was a "beautiful" woman, with lots of hair and flair and what have you. When she turned into a snake, her hair "hardened" and transformed into that headdress. Personally, I'd like to see her keep it -- it's a bit of a signature to Cass. I prefer her appearance to be more venomous snake-like rather than a woman with a snake butt.

Morvrannis2 votes

I prefer her appearance to be more venomous snake-like rather than a woman with a snake butt.

Dat asp... Cassiopeia

Canastus3 votes

You know, it's good to see your thread managed to attract some of the people in charge of champion design but what about the folks at balancing? So far no one has addressed the issues regarding her kit and mechanics. Why is it always the same when people start talking about Cassiopeia that they tend to ignore her flaws entirely?

SaraLee2 votes

I would like to actually suggest giving cass a more affective ult, like a definite stun, instead of a lame "slow", or like a burst dmg stun, or just take the stun out and replace it with slow and keep the burst dmg. I loved cassiopeia but I would like her to be a more effective and popular champion.Cassiopeia

AlexXeno2 votes

I say leave the effect of her ult the same, Thematically it's so perfectly. Looking into the eyes of a Gorgon and being turned to stone. As the poster mentioned, it's nor a matter of effect, but of the hitbox itself. It's really wide, and while that is nice, it's much too short. I find most times I try to use her ult that I have to get much too close to a fight, just to get half the team, let alone all of the team even in a confined jungle area.

RiotRiot King Cobra1 votes

Cassio's ult isn't that short range...It is the same range as her Q. I really don't think much needs to be done to her ultimate.

Rather, she needs a few QoL changes to make her more forgiving. For example, make her Twin Fang CD reset on cast rather than on hit so that she isn't punished for E'ing a target that dies from another source of damage.

Canastus2 votes

I've made a similiar thread like this one a good year ago and nothing happened, despite 36 pages of discussion. I brought up the exact same arguments as you did (I also see you've been borrowing from my other thread) and yet I couldn't change their mind at all. I've lost a great deal of faith during that time.

I don't think a texture update (as proposed by IronStylus) is the right way to go about this since they'll most likely abandon her for good after that, never to be seen working on her VU again. She deserves a lot more and we both know it. This definitely isn't how a champion from 2010 should be treated.

Ptarlorr1 votes

Yeah, her base skin looks like her scales are made out of Lite Brite or something.

TwistinFates1 votes

VU plz for cass and ori

darkdill1 votes

While we're on the subject of Cassiopeia, why is it that her breasts bounce in some of her animations, but MF's don't? Oversight?

http://www.lolking.net/models/?champion=69&skin=0

...What? It's just a question.

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