I Don't Understand Riot Philosophy Anymore

Troy242621··6 votes·683 views

TL;DR: Why is Riot so transparent about their philosophies, and why are they so frequently disregarded? Is there a lack of communication, or are they trying to "Venture out," into new designs to prevent stagnation?


I don't think these are overpowered (Barring about one of them) and some are outright underpowered but this mystifies me. I know this will be downvoted, but I'm honestly curious how this can happen. I really just don't understand.

We don't like straight counter-mechanics as they're a "Novice mistake," but we have Kalista

We don't like RNG significantly impacting the game, but we have Tryndamere

We don't want generalists being good at everything while being incredibly difficult to punish, but we have LeeSin

We don't like binary match-ups and smash-or-be-smashed designs, but we have Yasuo

We don't like champions with designs that require new players to memorize them (Like Rupture from other MOBAs) but we have Ekko

We like having healthy counterplay options that feel good to abuse, especially against otherwise binary designs, but we have Leblanc

We don't like it when players deny champion interaction, but we made a champion designed to do that Singed

Champions that hardcounter others or are hardcountered themselves create a situation where champion select is too important Volibear

It's the same company, mind you, that gave us champions like Bard KogMaw Braum Alistar Viktor Sion Ezreal. I can't wrap my head around how some are near perfectly designed (Velkoz) and others are utterly abysmal (Yasuo).

Yes, I know, different designers, but at some point I'd have to imagine when the same type of concepts get nearly universally hated and others are highly praised, design philosophies would become more universal. Instead, it seems like a philosophy is changed on a monthly basis, and is never more than a mere guideline that sometimes gets tossed out entirely, for better or worse.

14 Comments

kJs1 votes

Kalista = Ranged Yasuo Riven denies interaction with anything during lane phase. Her presence forces you to play passively and defensively. It's a bit annoying.

kJs1 votes

But that's Garen. He never amounts to anything come late game.

Vistha Kai1 votes

Only if you don't know how to build him.

BeerOfRoot48431 votes

Pls, I know how to build him. item 3303 item 3082 item 3200 item 3085 item 3135 item 2043

item 3070 Riven item 3070

BeerOfRoot48431 votes

That was core on Garen. I've had to settle with the pink ward since. It's alright, but it's not the same, you know?

Vistha Kai1 votes

item 3157 For Golden Justice!

SwiftKitten881 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vistha Kai,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hYUI5JGN,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-06-02T19:41:38.694+0000)

Passively? Defensively? http://fc04.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2010/281/0/1/garen_spin__3_by_cyroxen-d30bw38.gif

i absolutely hate garen and his freaking silence.. but that pic is amazing

qetzel1 votes

Playing passively and defensively means she is interacting with you though. It is a very interactive laning phase. Whether it is overbearing or not is a different matter.

An example of denying interaction would be old Janna. Clear wave, walk away until the next wave, repeat.

qetzel1 votes

Many of the philosophies came about after problem champions were released. To address each point in turn:

We don't like straight counter-mechanics as they're a "Novice mistake,"

I believe counter picks was the problem (eg pick Thresh or die). There is just about enough that can either lock up or burst down a Kalista such that there aren't only one or two options to pick against her.

We don't like RNG significantly impacting the game

Why do you think they don't. Because that champion started problems.

We don't want generalists being good at everything while being incredibly difficult to punish, but we have

Before Lee Sin, nobody was quite good enough as a generalist to warrant the term.

We don't like binary match-ups and smash-or-be-smashed designs

He wasn't supposed to be binary though. A lot of the parts of his kit (dashing only in minion waves, windwall to keep him relevant) were there to stop this. It just... didn't go so well.

We don't like champions with designs that require new players to memorize them (Like Rupture from other MOBAs)

Ah. No... We don't like there to be a burden of knowledge on the player. Quite different. The second you see Ekko using his ultimate or jumping into his circle you know why you died. A better example for this would actually be Mordekaiser. If you don't know about Mordekaiser, how would you know he was getting a shield from his abilities. How do you know that the shield gained is independent of damage dealt? Is it? Again, older champions are the offenders and this principle was created for them

We like having healthy counterplay options that feel good to abuse, especially against otherwise binary designs

And they are fixing that by adding in a delay on her travel time for W, giving more chance to react. We will see how that works. Again, it was earlier assassins (like LeBlanc and Talon) that caused this to be made. Counterplay wasn't a big thing until season 4.

We don't like it when players deny champion interaction, but we made a champion designed to do that

What made them say this? Singed, among others. What made them change how death sprees and minion farm worked? I also have my suspicions that he wasn't designed to proxy as much as he does/did. I think, although am not sure, that that is what players found worked best.

Champions that hardcounter others or are hardcountered themselves create a situation where champion select is too important

Does Voli have any major counters? I am not sure. I don't see him much. I do know that they used Volibear in an example for another new principle; "Why should I pick this champion over anyone else". If you want a flip, pick Singed or even Lee Sin (who does something similar). If you want someone to regen health (and therefore overcome sustained damage better) wwhy not Mundo?

Most of the examples you gave are either champions from before the philosophy change or just... wrong... (The Ekko one)

They are getting better with their designs, I think. All of their new champions have some strengths and some weaknesses that can be exploited (or could be if the balance was better c.f. Jinx's short range ultimate). They missed the mark on Yasuo, but you can't get everything perfect...

67chrome1 votes

I Don't Understand Riot Philosophy Anymore

Game design isn't a thing like math or programming with set-in-stone, 100% right and wrong interactions.

As an art - it's more held in place by a series of guidelines. And you can consciously break various guidelines to get something good in return - which I'm pretty sure most of Riot's official design philosophy threads put out there right at the front.

Take Zilea's anti-pattern thread for instance: he starts that off with:

Note that you can find an example of each of these somewhere in our game at some intensity level. Sometimes this is just bad design. Sometimes this is because we got something else in exchange. Design is an optimization -- but these anti-patterns are of negative design value, so you should only do them if you get something good in return.


Also - Yasou is a pretty bad example if you're going for bad design. He's way better than the other melee carries along with most of the fighter/assassins and assassins in the game IMO. He doesn't run into shenanigans where he's way better at dueling than team-fighting by having mechanics geared towards helping his team-fight that just make him oppressive in a 1v1 and mediocre at beast in a 5v5. His steroids also don't add damage vs. towers for back-door cheese and his mobility feels pretty solid without running into a lot of lol nope backwards mobility issues. His combo also requires a decent amount of setup that can be played around, rather than being of the "get within 700 range, get bursted from 100%-->0%" variety of several assassins. And Yasou's wind-wall and knockup offer enough utility he can still make a solid impact when behind. Also Yasou's passive essentially removes RNG from crit, so you don't even have to worry about chance deciding things with him at a certain point. All things considered - he plays more like a marksman that happens to be melee and has the tools to deal with that than he does some abomination of balance.

Compare him to someone like Tryndamere, Riven, Yi, Fiora, Xin: much less gameplay issues.

Riot did a really solid job with Yasou, you can't really expect them to do much better.


His only real flaw is he's an assassin, and if you look at QQ threads anywhere (or yours): people don't like playing against assassins.

Considering LoL has 120+ champions: I find it extremely unrealistic to assume having no assassins is possible, or that having nothing in the light-fighter/speedy melee archetype would be healthy for the game.

Especially if LoL is going to push different rolls/archetypes and team-work in a game with a variety of counter-strategy avenues favoring reflexes, tactics, and strategy. Some are just going to wind up favoring some play-styles more than others, some counter-play styles more than others, and gain more KDA recognition than others while still being balanced and being well-designed.

ElJanitorFrank1 votes

When were these philosophies stated, though?

Some of those champs are originals.

YossarianSensei1 votes

Lolololol AlistarEzreal are your idea of 'balanced and well designed'?

These champs have been nerfed more times than Yasuo can mash Q in a game.

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