I don't understand why Kassadin was nerfed and Leblanc is left as is

Cloud273·Mar 6, 2015·46 votes·4,448 views

They both do something very similar. They both jump in and burst you and then jump back out before you have time to react. This combo is repeated until you're dead. You always preach about meaningful counterplay, so please tell me, what is the "meaningful counterplay" to Leblanc? You never catch her because of her safety, and it's impossible to chase her because she'll just stun you. And it's not just leblanc by the way. All assassins have saftey built into their kits, whether it's stealth or some other kind of gap closer. And they all hyperscale. The assassin meta is alive and well. And Kassadin wasn't part of it. Yes he had safety like assassins, but he didn't have the burst that Leblanc, Katarina, Rengar, Talon, etc have.

37 Comments

BeerOfRoot4843Mar 6, 201521 votes

Kassadin gets nerfed in the damage department because he has to trade something for his mobility.

Then his mobility got gutted because he has to trade something for his ???????

Meanwhile, Leblanc is kind of like Kassadin but on steroids. She has two Kass ults that don't stack in mana, that you can use without waiting 5 years for it's cost to lower. And you can cancel both of them within a ridiculously long window of time. And she gets a Shaco ultimate whenever she's low on health. And she has a snare because she needed cc I guess.

SIaytonMar 6, 20159 votes

I muuuuuuuuch preferred kassadin to leblanc. Atleast once kassadin jumped in there was a window where you could punish him. With Leblanc she's 100% safe. Its super frustrating even if you know she's gonna go for the burst.

league just needs to add more animation to things. All these instant unreactable teleports into burst damage are fucking annoying. Zed IMO has healthy teleports because they're telegraphed and you have time to react. On the other hand, LB / Kat / Talon literally are just on you instantly with no animation. Although not related to mobility, annie's stun is the same way.

TL;DR, add more reaction time / animation to things and people won't bitch about ridiculous burst when they can actually avoid it. Not being within a huge radius of a character to not get hit is not counter play. That's just bad design.

Rinky DinkyMar 6, 20152 votes

They tried that, and 100% killed veigar by doing it lol

Cloud273Apr 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I muuuuuuuuch preferred kassadin to leblanc. Atleast once kassadin jumped in there was a window where you could punish him. With Leblanc she's 100% safe. Its super frustrating even if you know she's gonna go for the burst.

league just needs to add more animation to things. All these instant unreactable teleports into burst damage are fucking annoying. Zed IMO has healthy teleports because they're telegraphed and you have time to react. On the other hand, LB / Kat / Talon literally are just on you instantly with no animation. Although not related to mobility, annie's stun is the same way.

TL;DR, add more reaction time / animation to things and people won't bitch about ridiculous burst when they can actually avoid it. Not being within a huge radius of a character to not get hit is not counter play. That's just bad design.

Agree with this 100%.

Cloud273Apr 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Agree with this 100%. I still think they should reduce the scaling on Katarina's ult though.

Kitten of EvilMar 6, 20158 votes

I actually find Kassadin easier to counterplay, because he doesn't instantly kill you in 1.5 seconds. 360 + 140% AP on his Q+E combo? Compare that to LB's Q+W combo, which is 555 + 140% AP, or if a single use of ult is added for each, QRE becomes 720 + 140% AP + 6% max mana for Kass and QRW is 1155 + 270% AP for Leblanc. Honestly, who's the actual "lacking counterplay" one of the two?

Also, Leblanc can add her E to that, while Kass's W requires him to get and stay in range.

Leblanc's damage output is stupidly high for how flexible her combo is and how easy it is for her to escape. Need to get close first? WQRE. Already close enough? QRWE... get caught before you have time to fire everything off? That's okay, QEW.

A Palmtop TigerMar 6, 20156 votes

I really hate the fact that LB has so much mobility... how are you supposed to land skillshots on her when she has two dashes that are both reversible? Every skillshot is less than a 50% chance against LB since you are forced to aim where she currently is or towards her initial W location. Not to mention her stupid passive. She feels a little too safe for the high returns she gives. I for one would not mind if rito gutted her.

AClONgb2meMar 7, 20153 votes

Im just going to be honest here, Riot had to have been on some very very very hard drugs when they created leblanc.

Reasons: Not only does she have 1 massive gap closers (farther than kass ult) but she has 2 :D on around lets say a 5 second cd and 20 for her ult. 2. Not only are they gapclosers but also escapes so beating her in lane is.... near impossible she can jump in take out your health and get right back out probably never taking the same damage that she dealt and usually none. 3. Not only does she have her huge gapclosers she can return to for an escape but her passive is a clone AND invisibility making her this perfect assassin with everything in her kit that it would take 4 other assassins put together to make. 4. Lets compare kassadin - had insane mobility and reasonable damage now he has pretty much neither and i guess riot wished to make him useless, they were successful. Khaz - once a feared damage doing mobile jungler. Now a pathetic wimp that can barely clear his camps let alone try to make a gank because he his backing after every 2 camps now. On top of that it was supposedly a good idea to nerf him multiple times in a row so they take a champions from strong to average to worthless. It seems that riot likes to make champions worthless once they become popular. For example khaz was strong but never insanely op and look at vi now pretty much dominates every game and untouched. ON terms of khazix he was one of my favorite champions to play and definitely needs to be shown some love and if they don't want to rebuff his w, then why not give his q a buff so he can at least do SOMETHING. Rengar - decent assasin, has a stealth , very high damage, no escape, and a gap closer that takes skill to use. Compared to leblanc he is nothing she has everything he doesn't and requires no skill to use them. Zed - Still strong if skillshots are hit but worthless for auto attacks now. Has an escape, gap closer, and high damage. Still nothing compared to leblanc considering all of his damage relies on landing his q's.

All in all leblanc is just an absurd champion and some other weak champions like khaz need to be shown some love.

doublelift fgMar 6, 20152 votes

meddler nerfed kassadin cause he started to see some plays on lcs

SaiannaMar 6, 20152 votes

I understand why you are comparing Kass and Lb, but please, don't try to make LB nerfed. Instead ask for Kass buffs! I'm bad LB player, but i enjoy playing her as she is now. Please don't ask for her nerf.. Please!

Hellish ProphecyMar 6, 20151 votes

There's a lot of people I enjoy playing, but because of their kit I wouldn't even complain if they got nerfed.

Ashes AriseMar 6, 20152 votes

I'm horribly biased because I loathe LeBitch.

EconomiczMar 6, 20152 votes

Geez, am I the only player here who can consistently beat lebalnc?

TerribleRyzeMar 6, 20151 votes

He had powerful decision making skills built into his kit to take advantage of opponent stupidity; not titanic strength. I've proposed a rework to kassadin restoring his silence in exchange for scaling and base damages but I won't advertise that here. The point is his kit is in a state where riot can't alter anything without destroying his ability to exist as a viable champion.

LankPantsMar 6, 20151 votes

And Kassadin wasn't part of it.

I don't understand this argument. People seem to like to talk about Kass before the nerfs as if he was complete trash on the level of Urgot. He wasn't. He was a top competitive pick who was at least a top 5 pick/ban in every major region.

Were his nerfs overkill? I'd say yes. Was he "not part of the assassin meta"? Hell no, he was one of the top two assassins in the meta alongside Leblanc, at least competitively speaking.

Takeuchi 17Mar 6, 20151 votes

I hadnt even known about this nerf until I played him in an aram earlier this week (was an avid kass player in S4, going more of the supp route this season). I am horrendously disappointed in rito. not only did they nerf the oblivion out of his range but the cooldowns and mana costs are still horrible. there were so many other things they could have done without nerfing his ult range which is what made him viable. his ability to jump on the back lane or his ability to chase he relied on gap closing to do anything. its almost disgusting what they did to him. although I will note i still did awesome in that one aram post nerf. i refuse to even play him on sr now, i can only imagine how horrible his laning phase is now without having the safety of his ult to poke or escape ganks.

if this is the route their gonna take with him give him his silence back and decrease the stacks for his force pulse. or at least for the love of god do something about the mana cost and cd for this now pathetic excuse of an ult

A Miss FortuneMar 6, 20151 votes

Leblanc isn't the most problem causing champion in League, she definitely needs less mobility/escaping abilities though she does have some weaknesses that prevents her from simply walking around and blowing up people the entire game.

Without Leblanc's W she would kinda be incapable of most things. Her W and E are skillshots and if you dodge those typically you will not die. Though the W in particular is hard to dodge, oh and not to mention the E's built in heat-seeking technology.

-Very, very squishy and you can out trade her if you dodge her W or E usually -You can tell where she is going to go after she's used her W/R -It's easy to mess up her combo (two stuns, one person, every Leblanc player has done this.)

But yeah I agree that Leblanc could use a nerf or just a rework.

Kassadin definitely didn't deserve a nerf in comparison to Leblanc.

RaxicorMar 6, 20151 votes

I think its because they have a new direction they want to take him. Not sure why they are doing it so slowly though? Like if they were going to do a rework they probably should have left him as is until they had all of his new stats figure out.

flibitydooMar 6, 20151 votes

kassadin gets really tanky from his general item build though

leblanc doesn't

lategame, If you cc Leblanc when she goes in, then you can usually burst her down and kill her

if you cc kass when he goes in, then you can knock out about 50% of his max hp before he blinks away.

ReazaleMar 6, 20151 votes

U missed two points there:

If kass goes all in he gets in melee for more than .5 seconds and his full combo does like 500+1.5ap less dmg than the leblanc.

Leblanc can go back and forth with a single cd that its a normal skill, and she can do it again with her ult, so , in the time kass does 1 blink , leblanc can do 4.( this is really important when the critical time of a teamfight is the first 3-6 seconds , where kass will get to blink twice and do 1 spell rotation and leblanc has THE OPTION to blink 4 times or just 2 + do STUPID amounts of dmg or maybe ANOTHER root would be fine.... choices are power, versatility is power)

JedenVojakMar 6, 20154 votes

{quoted}

kassadin gets really tanky from his general item build though

leblanc doesn't

lategame, If you cc Leblanc when she goes in, then you can usually burst her down and kill her

if you cc kass when he goes in, then you can knock out about 50% of his max hp before he blinks away.

It's not that Kassadin get's really tanky from his item build, it's that he has no choice but to build tanky (RoA + Zhonya's = tanky???) because A) The meaningful mana items (and you MUST build mana as kassadin) provide some form of tankiness or shield and B)he doesn't do anywhere near enough damage to kill his opponent, meaning that he will be counterbursted/attacked by his target, meaning he has to be able to survive the encounter long enough to get back out.

I would love to be able to make a glass cannon-instaburst Kassadin - he just can't do it right now. His damage is too low.

#Buff Kass 2015

S E X Y B O IMar 6, 20151 votes

LB doesn't need nerfs. Kassadin needs buffs.

Realm DownMar 6, 20151 votes

I don't really understand what's so scary about Leblanc.. she's mobile, sure, but she's also super, super squishy and if she doesn't land her skillshots she's generally useless. Kassadin is/was a different story. he's very tanky when you're a magic user, and doesn't have any skillshots. i've actually never lost a lane vs a Leblanc. a couple of hits from any mage and she'll go into her passive and recall or die. especially if you play someone like Katarina that doesn't really need to aim when she goes into her passive. ill agree they nerfed kassadin too hard, but Leblanc doesn't need a nerf. she's not that good. if you can't land your skillshots on her that's your shortcoming not riots. and yes it is possible to land your skill shots on leblanc. it's honestly not that hard to catch her when she lands on her dash with a snare or something. one Lux or Morg combo and RIP.

Demented LemurMar 7, 20151 votes

Leblanc only has one skill shot technically the the WS a dash

MalganaMar 6, 20151 votes

Play fiddlesticks against leblanc and she wont be able to do anything to you in lane, and you can roam to stop her from roaming since your ult gives you the ability to do that.

ShakySurgeonMar 6, 20151 votes

Fiddlesticks midlane shits on LeBlanc, the constant silences and fears really fuck her over, especially early on.

PatMcGroynMar 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Fiddlesticks midlane shits on LeBlanc, the constant silences and fears really fuck her over, especially early on.

It depends, Fiddle has to be on point with his E in order to stop LB from bursting with her standard QW combo.

LlaniteMar 6, 20151 votes

Not quite that similar.

Kass has more sustain dmg, a shield and strong wave clears, whilst LB cannot reliably do any of those.

LB cannot repeat the combo until someone is dead. Her ult is 40/32/20s, even with a lot of CDR, she wont be able to combo more often than every 30s, with MR and some innate sustain, one can easily recover before her next combo.

Not saying the nerf is justified, but Kass spells are more reliable and generally easier on risk and resources.

PatMcGroynMar 6, 20151 votes

Honestly, I think the only change LB needs should be to make it so her Mimic: Sigil of Malice can't proc the 2'nd part of her original Sigil of Malice (and vice versa). It opens up combos with little to no counterplay, and a SHITLOAD of burst. Her WQRE combo offers VERY long ranged burst poke, in fact if she hits her Chain at the end of the combo, she either chunks people so they have to back, or straight up kills them if she's ahead/ they're behind.

ModKnightsKemplarMar 6, 20151 votes

Kassadin was different because he could do his over and over. Leblanc's has a longer cooldown. I'm not saying it's currently balanced (they are buffing his range again next patch, even), but that's the reasoning. Hope that helps.

MrDiesAlotJrMar 6, 20151 votes

Kass had to be nerfed because how he can easily jump OVER THE FRONT LINE, and nuke the carries without even a bit of a struggle, Good Kassadin could kill the back line, and easily escape without taking alot of damage, this nerf fixed the issue, ty allah

Demented LemurMar 7, 20151 votes

OK just going to say lebancs W is not a skill shot it's a dash as it cannot be blocked by Yasuo's wind wall and cannot be minion blocked unlike a true skill shot

KakakakakakaMar 7, 20151 votes

remove the passive and gg easy

magic poleMar 7, 20151 votes

People always bitching about the new fotm. Leblanc was probably one of the first 5 or 10 champions I played. At the time, about 1.5 years ago, no one ever played Leblanc, and it was nice to play a less picked champion. She even had a silence back then...i remember picking her one game , doing well...and someone was like "Leblanc is good?" Literally all they've changed since then is removing her silence.

Now she sees LCS pick and is spammed in solo queue. I can barely play my favorite champion now bc every just bitches and bitches about her being OP.

Anyways, I've played her a lot (i'm only mid gold, but i don't play ranked much), but here are some tips for you whiners playing against her:

shove her into her turret early, before she gets 3+ points in W. To hit her mid game power spike, it is important to quickly get her first 2 items (some CDR and AP). Yet, her early farming and AA is quite poor, exploit this. Force her to use her W to farm and waste her mana. Delay or weaken her mid-game (when she is arguably at her strongest) by hurting her early farm. This opportunity really only exists through levels 1-4 or so, so don't miss it.
Following 1): do not let her push. If you don't want to push to make yourself vulnerable, then fine, but don't let her push...if she does then she has the ability to become a huge lane bully and turret dive with little retaliation potential on her enemy's part. If you keep the waves balanced, or better - yours pushed, she won't really be able to push without using W, which is costly early and leaves her vulnerable without her escape.
Remember, Leblanc is one of the strongest if not THE strongest lvl 6 champion. Respect the lvl 6. I stress this much more if she has flash + ignite available.
She is a burst mage or assassin. She quickly uses all her abilities and then is all but useless while waiting for cool downs. Play carefully until she uses her combo. Wait for it, attempt to juke her E, and immediately engage her / the team after her combo is down.
she has huge kill potential and engage-range while Flash + ignite is available. Keep your distance. Force her to waste W as a gap closer, and prepare to juke E.
Landing E makes for a skilled Leblanc-everthing is about landing that E. You know when it's coming...obviously when she Q's you or dashes in your face. Remember, keep your distance and prepare to juke the E.
Ping her MIA & follow her roams.

I know some of this is obvious, but I hope it helps someone.

TriGunstaRApr 25, 20151 votes

Fuck that champion Leblanc, and fuck any kids who spam that bitch in solo Q and actually think they're good.

BorfinApr 25, 20151 votes

I love Lu vs Leb. I like to hit Leb with a Bunny beam when she dives in, then combo her. E follows her back so I can Q at my leisure.

It's not as delicious as when it used to cancel out her silence, though. Give her a taste of her own "NO YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO ME" medicine

Cloud273Apr 25, 20151 votes

Another thing to mention is that you're able to punish Kassadin if he messes up. Yes his ult has a short cooldown, but he cannot use it again immediately after he jumps in. If Leblanc messes up, she can return to her original position by activing the ability a second time. So, not only did Kassadin not have as much burst as Leblanc (unless he was super fed), but he also wasn't as safe as Leblanc.