Alright, what's the thing with this Masteries and the turn-on with Thunderlord?

Darius Strada·Dec 25, 2015·1 votes·618 views

First Warlord, then Fervor and now Thunderlord? What the hell? Why does the community have a turn-on, one masterie at a time?

12 Comments

JJI744Dec 25, 20152 votes

Warlords: broken sustain, some really broken outlier cases. Nerfed to no longer work on champions. Largely abandoned because it means not having a keystone for the first 10-15 minutes for most champions.

Fervor: taken up after Warlords was nerfed. At this time most damage dealers were going Ferocity, and unless you used Deathfire Touch effectively, Fervor was the obvious choice of keystone.

Thundrlords: With nerfs to Warlords and Fervor, along with buffs to the Precision mastery, damage dealers suddenly found the Cunning tree being a really attractive choice. thunderlord's is the only mastery in the tree that, well, adds to your damage.

Critmaster GarenDec 25, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Warlords: broken sustain, some really broken outlier cases. Nerfed to no longer work on champions. Largely abandoned because it means not having a keystone for the first 10-15 minutes for most champions.

Fervor: taken up after Warlords was nerfed. At this time most damage dealers were going Ferocity, and unless you used Deathfire Touch effectively, Fervor was the obvious choice of keystone.

Thundrlords: With nerfs to Warlords and Fervor, along with buffs to the Precision mastery, damage dealers suddenly found the Cunning tree being a really attractive choice. thunderlord's is the only mastery in the tree that, well, adds to your damage.

well to be fair, fervor and warlords were really op. objectively theyre stil too strong compared to thunderlord.

lets say lategame you have 250 bonus ad on an assassin or carry. that makes 255 magic damage from thunderlords every 20 seconds. now we have to also keep the fact in mind that scaling mr runes exist even on squishies. and magic damage on an ad champ who doesnt stack magic pen will be noticably less effective in general.

then compare this to fervor which deals up to 80 bonus physical on hit damage. certain melee champs will get this stacked within 2 seconds by lategame. it just takes 3 auto attacks with fully stacked fervor to outperform thunderlords.

so i really dont udnerstand the value in thunderlords for a lot of champs beyond the early lane phase where its better for short poke trades.

it also shows how broken fervor is in general. 3 to 4 auto attacks with stacked fervor already negates the bonus from strength of the ages. on a lategame carry this only takes a hand full of seconds at most.

JJI744Dec 25, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hUv8aVZe,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2015-12-25T04:12:31.128+0000)

well to be fair, fervor and warlords were really op. objectively theyre stil too strong compared to thunderlord.

lets say lategame you have 250 bonus ad on an assassin or carry. that makes 255 magic damage from thunderlords every 20 seconds. now we have to also keep the fact in mind that scaling mr runes exist even on squishies. and magic damage on an ad champ who doesnt stack magic pen will be noticably less effective in general.

then compare this to fervor which deals up to 80 bonus physical on hit damage. certain melee champs will get this stacked within 2 seconds by lategame. it just takes 3 auto attacks with fully stacked fervor to outperform thunderlords.

so i really dont udnerstand the value in thunderlords for a lot of champs beyond the early lane phase where its better for short poke trades.

Urg, I am apparently starting to feel fatigue. I hope this is coherant.

1: If you have a dominating enough early-game, it doesn't matter if your keystone gets outscaled later. The enemy never really gets to a lategame stage.

2: If you can get the job done with burst or sustained damage, burst is basically always better. It gives your target less chance to defend themselves or retaliate.

3: Melee champs with 250 bonus AD rarely get to AA an important target 5 times in a teamfight because A) Kiting and peeling exist B) the target dies at the third hit.

Basically, considering it is harder to use effectively, Fervor is not good enough right now to justify using it over Thunderlords.

Although it is worth noting: Precision is a lot of the problem right now. It is too dam good as a mastery for damage, so anyone looking to do damage early-game has to go deep into the Cunning tree, and Thunderlord's competition for damage delers is... not impressive.

NostolgicSkiesDec 25, 20152 votes

doesnt matter what the masteries are no matter where u put them or what they do. you will never truely see diversity like riot says it wants in the mastery system cause no matter what everyone will end up running the same rune pages because they are comprised of the most statistically logic choices among the whole. imo in order to give diversity there needs to be 3 mastery sets for each class marksmen should be able to choose between three different mastery set ups, mages , and tanks as well that way depending on the champ u can customize the givin masteries to that class to benefit your playstyle. even if one person picks cait and another picks ashe. ashe may choose stats to benfit her dmg and kite ability while cait may choose things that benefit her headshot bursting. both benfit each other well but neither have the same masteries to each other and if done right cait and ashe would have masteries that leblanc or morg would not be able to obtain because they would be givin a different sent of masteries to choose from out of 3 pages. this might also help with balancing things like thunder lords which is designed to be for bursting casters. i hope i describe or explained that well enough to be understood. but thats how i believe masteries should have been done. you could even allow multiple sets of class masteries to be availble to each champ as well. like morg could choose between the 3 from caster or the 3 pages from support. or voli could choose the 3 pages for tanking or the 3 pages for bruiser. etc. . .

magic poleDec 25, 20152 votes

it's really simple. thunder lords is good ok...but it's quite long cool down and DFT can outshine it on many champions.

the reason Tlord's is so popular is because of the mastery preceding it..."Precision"...grants 14 armor pen 9 magic pen at level 18. That is massive. it's basically 18 runes worth of stats. It's basically an extra item or half an item of stats and especially abused by hybrid dmg champs. Honestly it's good on any champ. if you can land AA's in lane and you deal primarily magic dmg, you're still getting some nice use out of both types of pen. If i could only choose Precision OR Thunderlord's, id take precision. it's that good.

consequently precision is getting nerfed

honestly anyone who doesn't realize PRECISION is the reason cunning is so strong is just following the trend of Tlord's popularity. nothing new

ProfDrDeathDec 25, 20151 votes

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3x4cp0/1216_pbe_update/cy1fnra

Reinboom with an explanation on the Precision situation:

With how masteries are grouped, the "stepping stone" masteries that lead into the keystones are effectively sharing the power budget with those keystones. Precision is taking up quite a bit of that power budget for Cunning.

So if we say that a stepping stone mastery + its attached keystone has a power budget of 100 (arbitrary scale), and that the stepping stone is using up 80, then of course the keystone is going to feel meh without seriously inflating the power of the whole system.

In that regards, if Cunning does end up weak as a tree, the result of the Precision nerf is more likely to see the keystones buffed (even potentially Thunderlord's).

Wînter FoxDec 25, 20151 votes

I always swipe right for Chad Thunderlord

shyvDec 25, 20151 votes

thunderlords works on pretty much every champ. with the exception of tanks i guess?

Critmaster GarenDec 25, 20151 votes

no idea. half the time it doesnt even make sense.

my guess is it doesnt just have to do with thunderlords. for example half of the resolve tree is just shit for tanks and heavy fighters and they made the masteries to cater to carries. especially after the nerf to veteran scars, there are barely any scaling masteries in that tree.

if people go down that tree, they just do it for 2 of the 3 keystones.

cunning on the other hand has a couple of really good masteries on the way down to thunderlords. so even if thunderlords is 'just' equally good on fighters and tanks than the resolve keystones, it makes the tree more attractive.

one of the main reasons thunderlords is good on everyone is its base damage compared to the scaling is pretty good. and that its useful for trades in lane.

magic poleDec 25, 20151 votes

my guess is it doesnt just have to do with thunder lords.

yup. It's the tier 5 mastery "Precision"

LaoBushidoDec 25, 20151 votes

It has to do with a meta situation , another example is like urf where after 2 week you will see the same of a pool 16 champs. Basicly the mastery is the most effective of of every other. On an ad prospective it help with early trades and is ez to proc, on a Mage perspective it's more powerful than the fire touch after defier touches recent Nerf . Warlord was basically just a free heal because Crit is pretty much required for every single adc making it too strong on champs with Crit built in or having no Crit multiplier. And fervor gave too much ingage power from passively farm then ingaging. Right now riots response is to buff all other masteries but it's possible we might see is similar trend . The reason why these things came to such popularity is because the other alternatives got nerfed