"We managed to first pick Ivern 2 times so we had 2 free wins." - Fnatic's Coach

Darius Strada·Apr 23, 2017·76 votes·4,441 views

You already know where this is going.

100 Comments

KingnewgameplusApr 24, 201717 votes

I don't know, I know that warhammer is a strong item, but I don't think AD ivern is gonna take off anytime soon.

BabyNaixApr 24, 20171 votes

I think the OP meant nerf hammer lel

r4ndomkillApr 24, 20173 votes

joke

head

RenownedWheat42Apr 23, 201716 votes

Meanwhile, UoL nabs Ivern against G2 and they're down 11k gold at 30 min.

Edge of DaybreakApr 23, 201710 votes

Its going nowhere. It's gone nowhere for 11 patches.

LeetriApr 24, 20172 votes

Meddler confirmed they're nerfing Ivern in 7.10 unless something very drastic happens. They're not making any larger balance changes to champions in 7.9 because of systemic changes and since they're busy with the tank stuff.

Big LincolnApr 23, 20179 votes

ivern is balanced, he has a low pick rate

Darius StradaApr 23, 201773 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g857fHjU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-23T15:04:09.941+0000)

ivern is balanced, he has a low pick rate

kappa

ShaydroxApr 24, 20172 votes

We need advanced Kappa for this retarded comment, like KappaPride or KappaRoss

Glory ln DeathApr 24, 20171 votes

How about BigKappa for Big Lincoln?

Legacy HydralphaApr 23, 201710 votes

Aatrox is at a 51.95% win rate with a 0.98% play rate top.

Ivern is at a 57.63% win rate with a 6.78% play rate.

So if play rate has to do with win rate, why does Aatrox not having a higher win rate despite his lower pick rate?

Pierce The VealApr 23, 201730 votes

[{quoted}](name=Legacy Hydralpha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g857fHjU,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-04-23T17:58:46.831+0000)

Aatrox is at a 51.95% win rate with a 0.98% play rate top.

Ivern is at a 57.63% win rate with a 6.78% play rate.

So if play rate has to do with win rate, why does Aatrox not having a higher win rate despite his lower pick rate?

I know this is a difficult concept to grasp,

But perhaps aatrox is just a much worse champion?

Legacy HydralphaApr 23, 20172 votes

I mean, that too. We seem to be discussing how play rate may correlate with win rate too.

Pierce The VealApr 28, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Legacy Hydralpha,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g857fHjU,comment-id=0000000200000000,timestamp=2017-04-23T19:58:45.072+0000)

I mean, that too. We seem to be discussing how play rate may correlate with win rate too.

Well, it does in this manner: X champion is popular/strong, so more people play them, including people who don't know what the fuck they're doing, so his winrate should be slightly lower, as the amount of people who are dedicated to them is almost always miniscule in comparison to the noobs. Thus average winrate must settle slightly below 50% for this to be a balanced champion.

In the case of a champion played by 1% or less, they're not very popular, so there are minimal people who try them out. The majority of the playerbase is dedicated, thus higher winrates are balanced.

In the case that a popular/strong champion has a winrate, they are clearly too strong.

In the case of a low winrate low playrate champion, they are clearly too weak.

Anything else becomes a bit more of a statistics game.

underscores222Apr 23, 20179 votes

The basic premise (which doesn't always hold true) is that low pick rate champs generally are only being played by players who have significant number of games with said champ (say, 150+) which means they should have a higher win rate since they are so experienced.

On the flip side, more popular champs are played by people with few games as said champ to people with many games, and as such their win rate is generally more even (the new players win less, the experienced players still win more, averages out)

In Ivern's case, he's sitting at a pretty high win rate and a respectable play rate - but it would be good to break down his play rate by number of games to see if he simply has a large pool of dedicated mains or if there's been a large influx of new players. If the former, his high win rate may indicate nothing (or that he's actually a bit overtuned one way or another) but if the latter, his win rate should be decreasing as newer players play him and make mistakes.

Thund3r Ang3lApr 23, 20177 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g857fHjU,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-04-23T15:04:09.941+0000)

ivern is balanced, he has a low pick rate

Dude, They nerfed Shen not because his pick rate was low in low/high elo, but because in pro plays, he was stupidly strong. Same goes for Ivern!

ShaolinToiletApr 24, 20172 votes

He's not op in pro play

Glory ln DeathApr 24, 20172 votes

I think you missed the quote in the title of this post...

ShaolinToiletApr 24, 20171 votes

Koreans say otherwise

Glory ln DeathApr 24, 20173 votes

Koreans say you didn't miss the quote? When?

MelledoneusApr 24, 20176 votes

Aaaand there's Lincoln with the opening joke.

Big LincolnApr 24, 20172 votes

it worked:)

deltemp951512Apr 23, 20175 votes

Ivern is fine stop your bitching.

Darius StradaApr 23, 201720 votes

[{quoted}](name=RoG Seraph,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=g857fHjU,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2017-04-23T20:40:46.640+0000)

Ivern is fine stop your bitching.

I didn't say anything! I just quoted FNC's Coach.

deltemp951512Apr 23, 20172 votes

Fnatic isn't even good. They haven't made it to the finals of worlds since 2011.

Don't get me wrong, I love Fnatic and would love to see them win worlds, but they need to improve immensely if they want to be able to compete with teams like SKT.

BTW I get what you're saying, honestly I just like messing with all of the cry babies saying that Ivern is OP. He is going to end up getting the S3 Olaf treatment sadly.

The main reason people think Ivern is OP is because he is a support jungler. He was the first of his kind and people are not use to the type of impact it has throughout the game.

ForeverLaxxApr 23, 20178 votes

Did you just say Ivern is the first support jungler? Have you actually played jungle before?

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

...have you? Name the support junglers that were ever meta at one point. Before Ivern, that list had 1 champion in it - Nunu (maybe Kayle, but I count her more as DPS than a support). Nobody else in the jungler heals, shields, or gives buffs to their teammates.

3TWarriorApr 24, 20173 votes

Amumu , Kindred , Maokai , Alistar (was a jungler a long time ago back when the role wasn't crazy), Morgana (though technically a mid)

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20174 votes

3 of them are tanks, one is an ADC. I stated in my response to the other guy, but ill say it here too - I phrased my last statement wrong. Its not that they dont heal/shield/buff teammates, but it isnt what is strong about them nor does it define their playstyle. If youre a support jungler, I feel like your primary role in the team is to provide heals/shields/buffs/peel. Providing a little bit of utility doesnt make you a support.

While Maokai/Alistar makes a case for it, but neither has been even been an off-meta pick for 5 years. But even when they jungle, they dont build as a support - they build as a tank or they build damage. When was the last time you saw an Alistar jungle build Locket?

Ivern is different because he really is a support jungler. Not a tank, not an initiator, not a damage dealer. He is pretty much just a support.

PureSilvrrApr 24, 20171 votes

Nidalee LeeSin Shen ?

FlyinguillotineApr 24, 20178 votes

Lol lee sin 'support'

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20175 votes

Nidalee is a support? Lee Sin is a support? I think I phrased my last statement wrong - its not that they dont heal/shield/buff teammates, but it isnt what is strong about them nor does it define their playstyle. If youre a support jungler, I feel like your primary role in the team is to provide heals/shields/buffs/peel. Providing a little bit of utility doesnt make you a support.

Shen is, maybe. He is still a tank jungler in my eyes, but he makes a better case for it with his new W and his ult. But Shen hasnt been a meta jungler since the Season 2 Azubu Frost days, and even then he wasnt super popular compared to Jarvan/Xin.

PureSilvrrApr 24, 20171 votes

Well shen isn't a top laner anymore after the nerfs to his "waveclear"

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

When did toplane Shen ever have waveclear? It was the nerfs to his shield more than anything that drove him out of the toplane meta.

But he is nowhere close to a popular or even off-meta jungler. He is played support more than he is played jungle.

PureSilvrrApr 24, 20171 votes

With the most recent Q changes riot claimed to nerf his "waveclear"

ThilmerApr 24, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee is a support? Lee Sin is a support?

And I haven't seen a Shen jungler, and I have been playing since season 3.

andingApr 24, 20173 votes

{quoted}

And I haven't seen a Shen jungler, and I have been playing since season 3.

Shen jungle worked back in S2

Glory ln DeathApr 24, 20171 votes

I think the response was directed towards your "Nobody else in the jungle heals, shields, or gives buffs to their teammates." comment.

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

Yeah, I know. But I later stated:

{quoted}

I think I phrased my last statement wrong - its not that they dont heal/shield/buff teammates, but it isnt what is strong about them nor does it define their playstyle. If youre a support jungler, I feel like your primary role in the team is to provide heals/shields/buffs/peel. Providing a little bit of utility doesnt make you a support.

Cause I forgot that some champions provide minor utility. Still doesnt make them a support-type Jungler on the level of Ivern though

ForeverLaxxApr 24, 20171 votes

For the record, I used to be a jungle main with support and top-lane secondary preference going all the way back to before Vlad's initial release. I was one of those crazy people that played Akali in the jungle back when you had to have specific masteries and runes that looked completely idiotic on anyone else to even do it in the first place. Of course, I've only played ARAM since it was released since the main game has fallen so far, but that's just an aside. Now that my jungle experience is out of the way...

Glad to see everyone else is on the ball, since I didn't have to bring up any examples on my own. You're under the narrow-minded view of what makes something a "support." It's okay, it's probably not even your fault, since Riot tries really hard to mislabel and misrepresent everything and I'm fairly sure you haven't been around that long -- particularly compared to me. Something requiring a heal, or a shield, or direct buffs doesn't automatically mean they aren't a support. Braum would still be a support even if his dash offered no buffs to its target. Leona is a support and she offers none of those things to her lane partner; in fact, she only offers extra damage that's entirely up to her partner to actively take advantage of.

Shoving specific requirements onto a champion role is what Riot is doing and it's why the game is devolving even further. Expand your definition, understand that not everyone falls under the same neat umbrella, and realize that Ivern was never the original "support jungler." If you want to get really technical, that was considered to be Nunu, but at least he fit your narrow view by offering his Blood Boil buff.

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

So answer me a question. If you were to classify Lee Sin, what is he?

ForeverLaxxApr 24, 20171 votes

Lee Sin is technically classified as a generalist, someone who does a lot of things but isn't supposed to do any one thing particularly well when compared to someone more specialized for that one thing. The validity of that aside, Lee Sin's actual role in a game changes as the game goes on and is influenced by what his team expects/needs him to do. Early-game he's a duelist/ganker, mid-game is when he applies his pressure into a skirmisher/assassin and late-game he becomes a bruiser/disruptor/peel champion. His ability to peel is what lets him function as a disruptor, which is a fancy term for tanky support. Movespeed slow, attack speed slow, and a knockback all help him keep his allies alive.

And I didn't even mention that he can shield an ally. Funny, that.

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

Yes, he has some supportive qualities (almost every champion does). I'm not denying that. I'm just saying that if youre classifying champions based on their kit and playstyle, Lee Sin is not a support. You dont pick him due to his ability to support his teammates. If anything, you play Lee because of his ability to completely take over a game. Even the most one-dimmensional assassin can play more of a supportive role if they itemize for it - doesnt mean that they are really a support though. In the most optimal situation, Lee isnt going around peeling for his team. In the most optimal situation, Lee is going out and using his abilities to destroy squishies.

Which is pretty much the exact reason why Ivern is a support. Can he dive and act as a disruptor? Sure. Can be play as DPSer? Kinda. Can be play as a Mage? Sure. But thats not where his strengths come in.

Very few champions are one-dimensional. Some might be 8/10 in supporting but 2/10 in damage, while others are 8/10 in damage and 2/10 in supporting. I'm saying that Ivern is the first (maybe second or third, depending on how you want to classify Nunu and Kayle) of the junglers to have a lot of his power budgeted into his supportive qualities.

So I guess thats the question - have we seen another junglers with this much of their power budgeted into their supportive qualities?

ForeverLaxxApr 24, 20171 votes

Alistar, Sejuani, Nautilus, "original flag" Jarvan, Nunu, Maoki I really could go on if I wanted but this should suffice.

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20172 votes

"Support" means something separate aside from "Tank". While Tanks play a utility and non-damaging role, they play in a way very distinct from Enchanter-type-Supports like Ivern.

Once you start including Lee and Sej into your "support" category, you essentially took out all meaning of the word. By broadening your definition to include every champion who can disrupt/peel/soak, you basically made the term "support" meaningless.

The definition of "support" I'm using is very limited - its limited to champions like Lulu, Janna, Soraka, Sona, Bard, and Nami. Ivern fits into that style of play, and its the first Jungler we have seen fit into that style of play. Thats what people mean when they say, "he is the first of his kind." Not that other Junglers couldnt provide any utility to their team - no other junglers provide it in the way or to the extent that Ivern does.

SchenixApr 24, 20173 votes

TahmKench Shen Nidalee Nunu Nautilus Alistar

They just happen to have a pattern to get nerfed from that primary role in the jungle; whether through build path, kit, or jungle reshuffling.

[path of supporting nidalee was tanky]

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

Once you start blurring the lines that much, they have no meaning.

What makes Nidalee a support? Basically her human-E, maybe her human-W. Bruiser Nidalee or Tank Nidalee were just that - she was a Bruiser or a Tank. She provided minimal support by means of support. Her contribution was being tanky, being mobile, and being a damage threat.

If youre going to say Tank Nid is a support, then I'll say that Tank Akali is a support for the same reasons. But once you get to that point, the term "support" loses all of its meaning. Everybody becomes a support.

SchenixApr 24, 20171 votes

Lines get blurred because any champion with even a slight preference for a role can do so with free form itemization and a minimal kit bolster. Akali isn't building a Solari or a Censor, Nidalee would. It's not that Nidalee was the greatest at support jungling if the early game didn't favor her, but that was a viable path to take and accessorized the strength.

There are 5 others there, and actually even more unless you really limit it to utility junglers; in which exist very few and Ivern of whom was made for that task specifically. Support involves a wide array of playstyle; what defines it is what you do with the kit, the role given, and the items you build to do what you need.

Also: Nidalee provided vision with traps, cover fire and bush checks, mobile engage and disengage with a carry, Attack speed with heals, and deep ward safety.

ChaoticPineconeApr 24, 20171 votes

Nidalee builds Solari or Censor? Ive seen the same number of Nidalee's build Solari and Censor as I've seen Akali's build Solari and Censor - exactly zero. Support Jungling Nidalee isnt really viable since it doesnt help you get or capitalize on a lead. If you have a great earlygame, why would you throw that away by going a suboptimal build? Wouldnt you rather build tanky or more damage so you can keep doing what got you the lead in the first place?

Once you blur the lines to include Diver-Tanks as a support, you have lost all sense of the meaning. By that logic, full-damage Akali is a support: by deleting the enemy carry, she is providing the most useful utility of all - taking someone off the map. ADCs are supports - they support their team by providing the damage on the team to take towers, shred tanks, and deal a ton of DPS. When people say "support" in describing a champion (not the role), they really do mean enchanter-type supports like Janna, Lulu, Nami, and now Ivern.

SchenixApr 26, 20171 votes

None of them are viable in most states any longer other than Nunu. They had their time, and they were booted out. I also said if you did not have a great early game.

You're just falling into fallacies at this point and missing the entire concept of what I wrote.

However also, you separate the role from the champions into straight empowerment of another champion. Yet Thresh is not an enchanter but the absolute model of a support as a diver that also retains utility. As has Alistar for 3 seasons. Enchanters are all descriptive as supports, but not all supports are descriptive as enchanters; there are too many paradigms. Which coincidentally is also why balancing is a nightmare with all roles for the same dimensional overlap issues.