Boards›Gameplay

Mixed Penetration Item

ModKnightsKemplar·Feb 1, 2015·2 votes·1,335 views

I think that champion diversity and game balance would be drastically improved by a mixed penetration item. Without it, hybrid damage champions are going to be awkward to play, even if they are popular. Corki is a decent example, as having to build multiple penetration items makes his build extremely weird. It may be balanced, but it just seems to be inelegant to me. There are some other examples of champions that currently do mixed damage, or could be changed to do mixed damage, if this option existed. Personally, I play a lot of Varus, who does mixed damage, and Katarina, who used to be a hybrid damage builder earlier in the game's history.

Here's the proposal (suggested by a good friend of mine, Dracobanana): a mixed flat penetration item that builds out of brutalizer and haunting guise. This item would need to have AD, AP, health, CDR, and both types of flat pen. This would also give a couple of interesting options for champions that do mixed damage, based on whether they wanted to focus AP or AD first. I think it would be questionable, balance wise, to give % penetration on this item, so I think flat damage is a better option. Let me know if you guys have thoughts on this! Just an idea; glad to have it shot down if it sucks, but I can't think of any reason, right off the top of my head, why it wouldn't work.

19 Comments

RebonackFeb 1, 20152 votes

Just remake Rageblade.

Give it 30% hybrid pen rather than the stacking nonsense that shares a named passive with Void/Whisper to prevent them from stacking.

Hopefully this would encourage Riot to finally make an HP item that isn't awful.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 2, 20151 votes

I like that idea. Good thought.

FyzzexFeb 1, 20151 votes

I'm confused at to who to get it on. Those stats are all important but together they are kinda sub-optimal and when you add on the probable total cost of well over 3k (2.8k just for the mid-tier components), It seems inefficient in comparison.

I mean the only champs who really would benefit from mixed pen are Corki, Eve, Jax and Akali. (possibly Kayle and Kog'maw but not really)

Corki needs his power spike of Triforce as first item. This is already putting him over 4k total gold (assuming dorans start) and he hasn't even bought boots yet so once you add on IE/BT/Bork, you are looking at a core build over 10k in cost that has minimal scaling due to triforce being a mid game item and Flat pen that starts losing out to % pen once people buy a single defensive item.

Eve might be able to make this work but in a jungle that punishes expensive builds this would be a snowball item at best and even then you would end up going full tank/bruiser after.

Akali... Akali has a minimal need for penetration though the survivability would be welcome. Also her current hybrid Item provides more focused stats for her in the forms of higher sustain(necessary for melees) and, most likely, higher values of AD and AP as well as a ranged slow that does decent damage.

Finally, Jax... Jax has a need for a certain threshold when it comes to items similar to Corki. His moderate dependence on Triforce to snowball his midgame to a colossal late game is certain. Secondary items such as his cutlass upgrade are truly necessary on a champ that has to be able to reach the backline in order to do his damage. However of all the champions, this item works best on Jax providing not only the stats currently listed but also giving him armour and MR. This item would have potential to replace Triforce as a rush item but the take away would be a massive loss of MS and, by extension, a higher chance of getting kited without being able to do his duty. As a tertiary or quaternary item I feel as though it would lose out to the current standbys of Randuins/GA/BV/SV. Past that point it has little to no point as unless you snowballed your lane to a 10k gold lead for yourself, the enemy team has had opportune time to build resistances. Also as a sidenote, I just realized this item would also force jax to run AS quints in order to take advantage of his ult and passive.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20151 votes

Well, obviously it wouldn't be good on anyone now. Having an item like this would require a little bit of rebalancing on those champs. It isn't really intended to be a post about JUST tacking on an item. It would be the first step in taking a different approach to hybrid damage champs.

FyzzexFeb 1, 20151 votes

But that doesn't change the fact that flat penetration will not scale into late game which most hybrid champs live for. (Jax, Kayle, Poppy, Kog'maw) That really only leaves Akali Corki and Eve whom not only don't have the budget to warrant getting an item like this over their current build but are unlikely to get reworked in such a way that it will benefit them. The only way to make this possible would be a % hybrid penetration which would be completely broken in every way possible. Your idea is good but slightly misguided since hybrid champs are in a really balanced position right now.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20151 votes

I dunno about that. I think it could still be a good mid-game item that takes advantage of their capabilities, and it certainly doesn't restrict their ability to buy LW or Voidstaff if they want that later.

I do see your point, for sure. I'm just not sure that it would be as bad as you say... I can imagine a lot of champs getting it early on and supplementing later. For many of these champs, a little damage (both types) and flat pen as a second or third item would be pretty attractive, I think.

And I don't agree that hybrid champs are in a balanced position. I think the popular champs that have both types of damage happen to be okay currently, but I think that hybrid champs, as a concept, struggle with the current items. Again, I would ask you to consider Varus. Half his abilities scale with AP, but there isn't really a good way to take advantage of that for him. Tri-force is the wrong choice on a champ like that, and there isn't really another item that gives both types of damage.

SandboxFoxFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I'm confused at to who to get it on. Those stats are all important but together they are kinda sub-optimal and when you add on the probable total cost of well over 3k (2.8k just for the mid-tier components), It seems inefficient in comparison.

Stat-wise you could theoretically make a gold efficient, niche hybrid penetration item that gives:

250 hp 30 AD 30 AP

Passive: 10% CDR 10 Armor Penetration 15 Magic Penetration

The value of such an item would be approximately 3351.7 gold and could realistically be priced at either 3.2k or 3.3k gold. This, however, would make it the most expensive linear penetration item available and the cost would make it suboptimal for most champions. As a niche item it might work well enough for a handful of champions but the cost would likely make it less attractive than other currently available items. Giving it any additional passive or an active would either force the cost into the 3.5k gold range (making it largely impractical) or make the item too gold efficient.

FyzzexFeb 1, 20151 votes

The real question is while those stats are theoretically gold efficient it lacks the major power spike that triforce and similar items give for mid game focus nor does it have the late game scaling necessary for a post mid game item. A change to this theoretical item that would be required to bring this out of the extremely niche territory that it would be in if ever created because it is a ball of incoherent stats currently, in theory. On any hybrid champ, their current 2 item rush provides more sense to their kit than anything that could be matched with this item. And lest we forget, not only do hybrid champs in general favor one side more than the other but the only ones that would ever need penetration are ones with an AP heavier focus(exception being corki) and by the time 3rd or 4th items roll around not only should you be getting a defensive item but if you truly need a pen item LW and Void have outscaled any of their flat pen counterparts

SandboxFoxFeb 1, 20151 votes

That's the inherent flaw of a hybrid penetration item like the theoretical one I suggested. It would need to give a variety of stats but the combination required for it to be successful lacks the synergy or power spike necessary to make it a practical item. The higher cost required due to the large amount of stats also makes it a poorer choice than simply purchasing a Void Staff or Last Whisper--both of which are nearly 1000 gold cheaper and are significantly more practical late game.

In effect, the item looks good on paper but in practice it is outstripped by cheaper and/or more effective alternatives.

A different theoretical alternative to the ball-of-stats variant would to make an item that is similar to the Hextech Gunblade but prioritizes penetration rather than sustainability. This, however, comes with its own set of inherent problems.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20151 votes

Both of your arguments, while valid, continue to assume that nothing else could change. I agree that an item like this would be absolutely flimsy, BUT only if Riot doesn't change champs to accommodate. They have already shown willingness to do so on items like Lich Bane and DFG, giving changes to champions who really relied on those items in the same patch.

I just don't see the point of pigeon-holing champions into building certain items to be effective, then giving them scaling with another damage type. It doesn't make sense to me, but perhaps that's how they want it. And I'm fine with that. However, I think it's always valuable to take a look at another opinion, so here goes.

It seems to me there are two ways to improve game balance from where we stand now; either allow hybrid scalings to flourish more effectively, or remove them from the game. Fyzzex has successfully named a few champs that thrive on the current way of doing things, but there are plenty more that I scratch my head at. Varus and Katarina are two I have already mentioned. I think champions like these could benefit pretty highly from having changes in either direction, but I don't really like the way hybrid scaling is handled now. It just feels like it's wasted opportunity for the champ to benefit from being fed. If Varus W scaled with AD (and, obviously, would have lower base damage as a result), I think he would be in a better position, even if the numbers came out the same at full build, lvl 18. Or, alternately, they give him the opportunity to build hybrid, and then it could be a truly interesting twist on the game.

MathbalnaseFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The value of such an item would be approximately 3351.7 gold and could realistically be priced at either 3.2k or 3.3k gold. This, however, would make it the most expensive linear penetration item available and the cost would make it suboptimal for most champions. As a niche item it might work well enough for a handful of champions but the cost would likely make it less attractive than other currently available items. Giving it any additional passive or an active would either force the cost into the 3.5k gold range (making it largely impractical) or make the item too gold efficient.

What's the average gold efficiency of comparably priced items again? Somewhere above 120%, isn't it? An item of this size could easily have room for an additional active or passive without being 'too gold efficient'.

SandboxFoxFeb 1, 20151 votes

The items within a comparable price range would primarily be: item 3153 item 3146 item 3157 item 3156 item 3508 item 3074

Not counting actives, these items range from 92.5% to 125.8% gold efficient through stats alone. Only Hextech Gunblade and Maw of Malmortius (with the maximum effect from the passive) exceed 120% efficiency, however.

The issue with the theoretical ball-of-stats type of hybrid penetration item, however, is not necessarily how it compares to items of a similar price but how it compares to items that it shares a similar function with. With the exception of the Warrior Enchantment, penetration items (both linear and percentile) are gold inefficient without of their unique passive/active (the values of which vary from 230 gold (for The Black Cleaver) to 2390 gold (Youmuu's Ghostblade)). As it stands the theoretical item would be around 101.6% to 104.7% gold efficient from base stats alone. Giving it a passive or active similar to its peers would likely push the item closer to being 120-130% gold efficient--depending on the type of ability.

MathbalnaseFeb 1, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The items within a comparable price range would primarily be:

Not counting actives, these items range from 92.5% to 125.8% gold efficient through stats alone. Only Hextech Gunblade and Maw of Malmortius (with the maximum effect from the passive) exceed 120% efficiency, however.

The issue with the theoretical ball-of-stats type of hybrid penetration item, however, is not necessarily how it compares to items of a similar price but how it compares to items that it shares a similar function with. With the exception of the Warrior Enchantment, penetration items (both linear and percentile) are gold inefficient without of their unique passive/active (the values of which vary from 230 gold (for The Black Cleaver) to 2390 gold (Youmuu's Ghostblade)). As it stands the theoretical item would be around 101.6% to 104.7% gold efficient from base stats alone. Giving it a passive or active similar to its peers would likely push the item closer to being 120-130% gold efficient--depending on the type of ability.

A bit of fact checking: Maw does not need 'the full effect of the passive' to breach 120%. The 'full effect of the passive', in fact, pushes it up to 165%. Or 130% with just the bonus AD from the passive.

Ghostblade's active is the equivalent of 2390g while it lasts. That's very much different from the active itself being worth that much.

Black Cleaver's passive, on the other hand, needs to have a value of just 230g* for Black Cleaver to be considered '100% gold effecient'*. Again, that is not to say that the passive is worth that little.

120-130% efficient is a good place to be for an item of that cost and number of components. In the absence of game-changing passives or actives (like most of the items in that list have), ~100% gold efficiency is the hallmark of a terrible item.

Hell, a simple BFS is about 116% efficient by those same calculations, an NLR hits almost 109.

As it stands, this item sucks.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20151 votes

But they absolutely could give it a cool passive. I haven't suggested one because I don't have any great ideas, and because I think it takes a back seat to deciding if something like this could ever work. It would first have to be decided what hybrid champions really looked like with this kind of item, and what other changes were necessary, etc. Also, the cost on an item like this could always be lowered... I feel like looking at those sorts of questions before the item exists kinda misses the point. Could hybrid champs occupy a bigger piece of the game? That's really the key question to me, and I think a mixed pen item (of any kind) is one of the things keeping that from happening.

MathbalnaseFeb 1, 20151 votes

I would be happy to see more hybrid builds find a place in LoL. (lots of Tanks and Bruisers especially are already effectively hybrid damage dealers in that the damage they deal includes comparatively significant physical and magic components, but often don't benefit well from hybrid builds)

I'm not particularly convinced that mixed flat pen would make much of a difference, though. Hybrid damage dealers already deal plenty of damage to squishy targets, after all.

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 1, 20151 votes

So you think a %pen item is the way to go? Obviously, it would have to be less % than LW and void. At least, that seems obvious to me. Got any more thoughts on that, for the record? :)

MathbalnaseFeb 1, 20152 votes

I think that a %pen item would be more likely to boost the viability of hybrid builds than would a flat pen item, all else being equal.

As for the magnitude of such penetration, I think 20-25% is probably a decent spot for it, relative to current LW/VS's 35% (assuming they get named unique passives so they can't be stacked; we don't want people running around with 54% mixed penetration).

ModKnightsKemplarFeb 2, 20151 votes

Sounds reasonable. Hopefully some Rioters will look at some point. I like it.

aaronconlinFeb 1, 20151 votes

Riot won't do this, they've said that hybrid champions are strong, but not too strong because itemizing for both types of penetration is limited. The item would help certain champions, but it might be too much

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplayJul 18, 2015764 comments

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplaySep 1, 2015156 comments

GameplayApr 1, 2016606 comments

GameplayDec 21, 2014456 comments

3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.

GameplaySep 17, 2015114 comments

When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?

GameplayNov 30, 2014634 comments

More by KnightsKemplar

New Winions have me concerned...

GameplayNov 10, 2015261 comments

Let’s Discuss: Marksmen

GameplaySep 19, 2017356 comments

The case for Mercury tier below Bronze

Memes & GamesSep 20, 201839 comments

We should be able to buy the "losing" Summoner Icon for a VS event

GameplayJul 1, 201843 comments

In ~24 hours, I won't have to argue with anyone for a role EVER AGAIN.

GameplayJan 12, 2016122 comments

Taric counters AD assassins like Qiyana

GameplayJun 7, 201992 comments