It's nice to see ranged ADCs have stronger early games than melee champs

IsIsGankedParis·Oct 30, 2015·87 votes·4,326 views

Heaven forbid they can't kill melee champions and be stronger than them in lane before 1 item.

87 Comments

MordepoolOct 30, 201525 votes

This board is no longer about balance

IsIsGankedParisOct 30, 201535 votes

It has never been, its about circle jerking to get the changes we want done.

AMYS GRAVEOct 31, 20156 votes

Sadly that is the only way things get done. If we have a calm and respectful discussion it gets buried in obscurity.

WooBeeWooOct 31, 20154 votes

This is so true the best balance posts I see are almost never addressed by Riot. Pretty stupid.

AxxlonOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

This board is no longer about balance

lol when was it ever?

IcyPepperOct 30, 201516 votes

This is just speculation, but maybe they're going to buff adc's, then buff other classes by using the adc's as a baseline?

In other words, boosting everyone's overall offensive power to reduce the average game time.

shrugs

MAYBE.

I'M STUPID AND BAD ANYWAY SO DON'T LISTEN TO ME

Irelia BotOct 31, 20152 votes

{quoted}

This is just speculation, but maybe they're going to buff adc's, then buff other classes by using the adc's as a baseline?

In other words, boosting everyone's overall offensive power to reduce the average game time.

shrugs

MAYBE.

I'M STUPID AND BAD ANYWAY SO DON'T LISTEN TO ME

did someone say leblanc will be able to 2 shot an enemy at level 2? This is a good day.

AMYS GRAVEOct 31, 20155 votes

powercreep: the comment.

IcyPepperOct 31, 20151 votes

Precisely.

I think Riot is worried games are becoming too long on average? Maybe.

If it was a huge concern, I'd increase death timers, but giving everyone more offensive power is the "fun" option if you get my drift.

AutoreactiveCD4Oct 31, 20151 votes

No, I prefer being instantly deleted as a tank than being dead longer.........

IcyPepperNov 1, 20151 votes

Hence why I'm saying Riot is going for the more "fun" option, the death timers would be a simple solution but less "fun." Did I not communicate that properly? :/

AutoreactiveCD4Nov 1, 20151 votes

No I just forgot sarcasm doesn't translate without a goofy voice sometimes. I would prefer death timers to what I'm predicting the monsters ADC's will become.

IcyPepperNov 1, 20151 votes

DAMMIT I'm sorry

I usually put /s or italicize to show I'm being sarcastic.

Old Man TeetoOct 31, 20153 votes

Didn't happen in ANY other circumstance.

Riot literally just decided to throw a bunch of cool items into the game and make a bunch of old items work for their "new" champions.

Hype is increased, sales increases, vast majority of playerbase sees it as a positive due to deaf leading the blind.

pripustasOct 30, 20153 votes

Yeah, and with mana pots removed melee champs have no chance to farm with skills! Did you see mana "buffs" they gave? 1 more skill baby!

dangopeeOct 30, 20152 votes

Pantheon that one more spear breh

Silents429Oct 30, 20156 votes

When are melee champions farming with abilities against an ADC..?

Chaotic ReksOct 30, 20153 votes

Singed

Silents429Oct 30, 20154 votes

Proxy farming in the top lane isn't dealing with an ADC.

UltimatesplashOct 31, 20151 votes

not every singed proxy farms

Silents429Oct 31, 20156 votes

Then you are failing a running simulator.

hashinshinOct 30, 20155 votes

Olaf, Jax, Irelia, etc? Olaf last hits with Q, Irelia with Q, Jax uses leap strike to try and get a minion before the ranged dude can get in range, or counter strikes so he can get 2-3 low HP minions without getting half his HP chunked. Hecarim uses Q to last hit from further range. Nasus. Jarvan. PAntheon. Fiora.

Silents429Oct 30, 20151 votes

When are melee champions farming with abilities against an ADC..?

LankPantsOct 31, 20152 votes

When are melee champions farming with abilities against an ADC..?

Quite frequently on the PBE. ADCs are so overpowered on the PBE that 3 ADC teams are common. Running an ADC top is advantageous against a traditional top lane.

Silents429Oct 31, 20151 votes

It won't pass over to the live servers, PBE has so many ADCs because it's damn near impossible to get the role you want so people play champions anywhere to try them.

LankPantsNov 1, 20151 votes

But the thing is, the team's with 3 ADCs aren't losing to more balanced teams, they're steam-rolling them.

At the moment running multiple ADCs is only advantageous, none of the traditional disadvantages of multi ADC teams seem to be affecting them.

Silents429Nov 1, 20151 votes

Because a lot of people don't actually know how to fight all ADC teams.

The PBE playerbase isn't exactly stocked with skilled players and has no real matchmaking system in place.

LankPantsNov 1, 20151 votes

The PBE playerbase isn't exactly stocked with skilled players and has no real matchmaking system in place.

The thing about the PBE is that the players on it are an accurate sample of all players, actually weighed somewhat top heavy, what pro doesn't have a PBE account for example, challenger is over represented.

If I can play 5 games with ADC heavy teams VS balanced teams and see the ADC heavy team utterly dominate every game from both sides it tells me that maybe something is up.

I don't know how good all these players I'm playing against/with are, but statistics tell me on average they're about gold, maybe high silver AKA they fall around my skill range. If I can reliably dominate them when I play ADC and vies versa it tells me maybe the ADC class is just a tad overtuned.

Silents429Nov 1, 20152 votes

PBE is not a good sample of what live brings, Riot has come out saying this plenty of times that releasing to live servers offers much better feedback, and that isn't just because of more players.

PBE on it's very foundation is an entirely different setup, everyones given everything to earn in the game, the servers suck, skill levels are all over, less people to play with, and everyones encouraged to play insane things just because they can. It is anything but accurate

KONO RUBICK DAOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Olaf, Jax, Irelia, etc? Olaf last hits with Q, Irelia with Q, Jax uses leap strike to try and get a minion before the ranged dude can get in range, or counter strikes so he can get 2-3 low HP minions without getting half his HP chunked. Hecarim uses Q to last hit from further range. Nasus. Jarvan. PAntheon. Fiora.

did you tried it against adc?

SgtCrispyOct 31, 20151 votes

Olaf does not regularly last hit with Q, you'd run out of mana doing that. His Q cost an absurd amount of mana.

Silents429Oct 30, 20153 votes

You know it isn't unreasonable to think maybe they will have more changes after 1 day.

IsIsGankedParisOct 30, 20156 votes

I know which is why if we dont complain they wont change anything.

Better to speak now than regret not speaking at all right?

Silents429Oct 30, 20154 votes

No, you don't need to complain, you can just be formal about it and promote discussions instead of encouraging the boards to complain more.

xFrostKnightxOct 30, 20158 votes

ADC: "Mhmm Much happy, very good. We'll stay silent because we are content with the changes which make us op"

Mages: " Why do all my items cost more and give less stats now?" Melee bruisers: " Hmm... can we abuse this, or will ADC's abuse better?" Tanks: "How am i suppose to tank...."

Supports: " Yes~ Changes nobody hates or cares about! " Assassins: "The time is almost upon us brothers, we will dine in Nerfed Mages and ADC blood!"

There you go. This sums up everything for each role. The reason why formal talk does not work is because when people see the PBE they see the massive one sided buffs to ADC and nerfs to every other role. I'm a Sup/Jg main so these changes do little to me, but even I can understand the reactions people are having.

The ADC early game is so powerful currently that it is actually better to run 4ADC due to the CC boosts. They get a ton of Lifesteal, CD by building crit and they solve mana issues all with 1 item, they take reduced damage, mallet is now cost effective for the perma ranged slow, 20% dmg taken is put into bleed which prevents them being taken down easily + a 12% damage reduction item.

Yes, you can experiment how this works with bruisers and if they can abuse it (despite having range disadvantage or all the new cc/kits adc got) But it still sits, that unless you can 100-0 an Adc (mages cant do this anymore mid-late due to increased costs on ap and all the MR items that are super viable for adc) an Adc will out duel you and kite you to death. All it takes is frozen mallet for an adc to stop bruisers abusing the new items because they cant get in range + ranged champions get a movement speed boost when Orb walking and all flat % move is removed from most Ad items.

So unless they are going to remove item passives to rework half of them or increase gold cost of these items by 200-600 (for first 1-2 tiers, same cost at final item) to balance the gold efficiency so it's not OP first item against everyone, this change is just like Mord's. It's forced onto us to make us bring Adc into other roles.

Silents429Oct 30, 20151 votes

They just buffed the global gold income to compensate the item cost changes.

Tanks are going to be just fine if not better, the new defensive tree is insanely good.

Bruisers are a balance hell hole that Riot doesn't want to exist anymore, hence the goals of Juggernauts and fighter rework we had in August.

Supports are getting exactly what was being asked for the entirety of this season, a better sightstone with upgrades paths like the jungle items.

I don't care for the assassins because it's an entire role Riot still has to do an overhaul for like they did for all the other roles, there is no point in thinking long term for them at this point in time.

This applies to both tanks and mage items, but they are getting toned down due to how powerful the new masteries are for them.

The reactions people having are premature and mostly stupid. The amount of people saying Season 6 is the death of League on day 1 is ridiculous and proper discussion should be encouraged further not just understood.

BluePolarizerOct 31, 20153 votes

the best comp is now 4 ADCs + 1 support.

Top lane ADC needs high base damage and can build semi-tanky. Looks like Vayne or Graves are good.
The team needs some sort of initiation and CC. Oh look, Kalista + Thresh or Ashe + Braum does all that.
The team needs waveclear and poke. Hmm, Varus or Sivir mid solves those problems.
The team needs a ganking jungler. Turns out Twitch, Jinx and Kindred can jungle. While Jinx and Kindred are farm junglers, Twitch has terrifying ganks, and can snowball out of control just as easily as Rengar or Eve.

There is now absolutely no downside for running 4 ADCs. They can do it all.

Silents429Oct 31, 20151 votes

Until they go against actual team comps with Rammus Malphite

Throw in someone like Leblanc Zed

Maybe Garen Annie

So many champions that will make you deeply regret going a full ADC comp.

BluePolarizerOct 31, 20153 votes

too bad Annie gets dumpstered by Varus. This is why Varus is an LCS mid and Annie isn't. Varus naturally outscales Annie and just has to take barrier to prevent himself from being 100-0'ed at 6 and Annie has lost the game. This is assuming Varus didn't poke Annie out of lane long before then. Out of that list, only Zed has a chance, but he has to snowball or lol, Merc Scimitar rush.

Rammus can't even fucking farm jungle and gets bullied out of his own jungle by Kindred.

Garen is the typical win lane lose game champ. He can't do shit against Vayne or Kalista late game.

Silents429Oct 31, 20151 votes

Example champions, Le Blanc would be all over your asses before you get 1 auto attack off. Xerath and Lux would simply kill you from a distance, Riven would charge through and rip you a new one, Irelia would be in heaven.

BluePolarizerOct 31, 20155 votes

Xerath and Lux can't outpoke Varus who outrange both and has better lane due to better autos.

Irelia would lose lane to Quinn top or Graves top simply because of their absurd numbers.

LeBlanc loses to scimitar rush cleansing off chains. It's not like Varus vs. LB is a rare LCS matchup and Varus doesn't autolose even now.

And even if you beat them in lane - can you actually win game lol?

RebonackOct 31, 20153 votes

I really don't think a lot of people are considering how massive of a buff to basically everything that doesn't build Last Whisper the Last Whisper remake is.

Just to put it out there, you need about 700 bonus armor for the new Last Whisper to provide as much penetration as the one on Live. This means if an ADC buys Whisper their damage is going to be taking a pretty major hit against soft targets. If they don't buy Whisper, tanky folks are going to walk right over them.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20154 votes

It also either gives 15% damage amp against people with more HP than them (everyone), or grievous wounds. I don't really call that a nerf.

Zair UmbrasOct 31, 20151 votes

Grievous Wounds affects very few tanks to be honest. Drain Tanks, Mundo, and Voli are the only ones who are really going to notice it and most other melees burst the ADC before they even regen... so... yeeaah.

The 15% amp is only good against tanks. I should note most tanks have a base of about 70ish armor at max level. 70 armor is still about 41%. Since LW only affects bonus now, they'll never effect that 70 armor, which is about 28 ArP they would have gotten that they don't get anymore.

Honestly, tanks will still tank, but melee carries will be squishy as hell. Given most melee carries are getting this very same nerf/boost on top of getting other good AD items, plus most of the same items the Marksmen are getting, they're really not affected.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20153 votes

The 15% amp is not only good against tanks. It's 1.5% per 50 hp, maxing at 500. ADC's have low base stats, so even against someone who's built NO hp, they'd likely get 5 to 10% increased damage, and nearly everyone picks up some HP, from sightstone to RoA to Black Cleaver.

RebonackOct 31, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It also either gives 15% damage amp against people with more HP than them (everyone), or grievous wounds. I don't really call that a nerf.

Requires the upgrade, but yes. An ADC can choose to build additional power against beef-tanks or sustain tanks.

Their damage will still be quite a bit lower against soft targets if they grab Whisper.

MealReadytoEatOct 31, 20152 votes

The upgrade costs in total as much as LW does on live.

WIth LS as ridiculous as it is right now on, I think the grievous wounds upgrade will be pretty essential, just to take down the other carry.

CynikaOct 31, 20151 votes

AKA vlad will no longer be viable

RisenDarkKnightOct 31, 20152 votes

Anyone see a steam of graves jungle? Destroying LeeSin in his one jungle at lvl 3 may be a little satisfying to watch, but it's clearly incredibly broken.