"Vayne is weak in lane"

Drunken Yasuo·Jul 23, 2015·103 votes·6,340 views

why is every vayne in my elo (Diamond 4) or generally in Diamond winning her lane then?

gut this bitch

150 Comments

1000angrybeesJul 23, 201526 votes

Vayne has a 'weak early game' just like Fizz does.

MohawkBirdJul 23, 20153 votes

[deleted]

1000angrybeesJul 23, 20159 votes

As soon as he hits 3, sometimes even two he can all in most mid laners.

AbsoluteSadmanJul 23, 201519 votes

Why did i cream a draven with vayne as a free week player?

I dunno but Muh weak lane phase.

Rew711Jul 23, 201514 votes

Vayne's not strong. Look, here's her kit; a MS boost when near enemies, a Q that can dodge skill shots and gives bonus AD for 30 mana, a E that knocks back enemies and can stun if they hit a wall, a W that deals bonus damage plus another bonus damage based on the opponents max health, and a ultimate that gives tons of bonus AD also 3x the normal MS and the ability to go invisible. . . . and, wow.

She has more in her kit than Twitch does, and his costs twice what hers does. Twitch gives passive damage that can stack up to (at most at max level) 36 damage over 6 seconds, his Q gives bonus AS, MS, and invisibility, his W slows and applies only 2 stacks, his E doesn't even deal more than 290 (+120% AP) (+150% bonus AD), his R gives a bonus 300 range with up to 36 bonus AD and the ability to pierce but others hit get dealt less. And this is an in-depth look. Imagine how OP Vayne would sound if we went in-depth with her.

VentiraJul 23, 20156 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's not strong. Look, here's her kit; a MS boost when near enemies, a Q that can dodge skill shots and gives bonus AD for 30 mana, a E that knocks back enemies and can stun if they hit a wall, a W that deals bonus damage plus another bonus damage based on the opponents max health, and a ultimate that gives tons of bonus AD also 3x the normal MS and the ability to go invisible. . . . and, wow.

She has more in her kit than Twitch does, and his costs twice what hers does. Twitch gives passive damage that can stack up to (at most at max level) 36 damage over 6 seconds, his Q gives bonus AS, MS, and invisibility, his W slows and applies only 2 stacks, his E doesn't even deal more than 290 (+120% AP) (+150% bonus AD), his R gives a bonus 300 range with up to 36 bonus AD and the ability to pierce but others hit get dealt less. And this is an in-depth look. Imagine how OP Vayne would sound if we went in-depth with her.

Vayne's not strong? Are you HIGH?! Vayne is the only champion with a truly uncounterable source of damage, and has more steroids in her kit than Riven has hops.

KivolanJul 23, 201514 votes

Did you actually read the rest of their post? They were being sarcastic with the first sentence, and then went into all the things that make her op.

Christ, people... Read before you randomly downvote / upvote shit.

WhamBamBoozlerJul 23, 20154 votes

Of course he didn't read your post before spewing his dumbassery all over the place! This IS the internet after all

SprisiaJul 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Vayne's not strong? Are you HIGH?! Vayne is the only champion with a truly uncounterable source of damage, and has more steroids in her kit than Riven has hops.

HAH. Randuins + FH. Shes got nothing left if she isnt getting those W's off.

VentiraJul 24, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gentleman Aaron,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2015-07-24T07:59:34.672+0000)

HAH. Randuins + FH. Shes got nothing left if she isnt getting those W's off.

Hah, a malphite with 300 armor, FH, and Randuin still dies in <5 seconds to vayne.

SoberToasterJul 23, 20159 votes

vayne is cancer. it's her true dmg particularly, period.

DivewingJul 23, 20157 votes

So say vaynes lane phase was that bad. Congratulations, you have a 9 minute window to stop her from being able to come back into this game, good luck... Yeah i dont agree with it either...

KirynDawnJul 23, 20156 votes

Well you kinda answered your own question. Diamond Vaynes winning lane because the Vayne is Diamond.

Focus TeemoJul 23, 20152 votes

You see the problem with that is the Vayne's opponent is ALSO Diamond... meaning Vayne should still be at a disadvantage.

LaowPingJul 23, 20155 votes

Cause their support is good or the enemy botlane is bad. Weak laning does not mean a lost lane.

Drunken YasuoJul 23, 201523 votes

{quoted}

Cause their support is good or the enemy botlane is bad. Weak laning does not mean a lost lane.

why does she have by far the highest popularity among all champions and still got a over 50% winrate with her "high skillcap"?

LaowPingJul 23, 20154 votes

Her winrate is 49.9 percent right now according to lolking.

Drunken YasuoJul 23, 201520 votes

{quoted}

Her winrate is 49.9 percent right now according to lolking.

i said Diamond not overall Diamond is 50,66% i dont mean Gold 5 vayne players like you who dont even know what proper CSing is.

LaowPingJul 23, 201523 votes

50.66% is nothing special. It's almost dead center.

Drunken YasuoJul 23, 20156 votes

{quoted}

50.66% is nothing special. It's almost dead center.

lol. this is so wrong in so many ways 50,66% with by far the highest popularity is overpowered

LaowPingJul 23, 201517 votes

That's wrong in so many ways. Popularity doesn't mean a champion should be losing a lot.

Slamurai JackJul 23, 201520 votes

It does when that champion is constantly touted as hard to play with a high skill cap. If Draven, Yasuo, or Lee Sin ever managed both a 50%+ win rate and 30%+ pick rate, that probably means they're quite overpowered. When a champion is that popular, it not only means that they're being played by tons of people inexperienced with the champion, but it also means that champion is also constantly picked without regard for synergy with teammates or consideration of enemy counter picks. Maintaining a solid win rate under those circumstances implies that the champion is even stronger than their stats would appear to show.

LaowPingJul 23, 20154 votes

I see where you're coming from. Hard champions should usually have low win rates. But I don't think Vayne in particular is picked regardless of team comps. ADC's all do the same thing, damage. They just have different ways of doing it and have different power spikes. Mid lane there's a big difference between a Xerath and a Ahri. In top lane there's a difference between Riven and Maokai. All ADC's are fairly similar. Most ADC' don't care about team comps because their job is to do damage regardless. Regardless, being able to work on multiple team comps doesn't make her op, it just gives her synergy. As far as the inexperience part is concerned, Vayne's win rates raise and fall with ELO. Bronze players play her and they suffer where as Diamond players do a bit better (all though, thb, I don't think she's that hard to play. As long have you can understand the word "dodge" you're fine).

That's my opinion at least. Good talk.

ArknaJul 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-23T01:56:07.826+0000)

It does when that champion is constantly touted as hard to play with a high skill cap. If Draven, Yasuo, or Lee Sin ever managed both a 50%+ win rate and 30%+ pick rate, that probably means they're quite overpowered. When a champion is that popular, it not only means that they're being played by tons of people inexperienced with the champion, but it also means that champion is also constantly picked without regard for synergy with teammates or consideration of enemy counter picks. Maintaining a solid win rate under those circumstances implies that the champion is even stronger than their stats would appear to show.

A lot of it has to do with the meta favoring her. Bruisers/tanks are pretty strong meta picks currently. She does well against them. ADCs who fare best against her in lane don't scale as hard or as quickly, so they're weaker against your teams bruisers/tanks.

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20154 votes

{quoted}

A lot of it has to do with the meta favoring her. Bruisers/tanks are pretty strong meta picks currently. She does well against them. ADCs who fare best against her in lane don't scale as hard or as quickly, so they're weaker against your teams bruisers/tanks.

Vayne is strong against bruisers, tanks, most assassins, other adcs, and any mage that relies on skillshots. Literally the only thing that leaves are Mages with reliable burst and CC. I personally just play Malzahar against Vayne. Press R and she's donezo.

AnidanJul 23, 20152 votes

I have no idea what assassin she's strong against. The only assassins I'd say say she's strong against right now are the ones that are considered weak enough that anyone could say they're strong against them. Vayne is squishy as hell and assassins blow up squishies. Vayne is a prime target for assassins that can competently accomplish that job.

In fact, anyone that specializes in pumping out high damage really fast makes life hell for Vayne. Draven, Graves, Draven, LeBlanc, Draven, Talon, Graves, Malzahar, Draven, etc..

The only thing preventing those two from keeping her in check in bottom lane right now is, hey, they were the target of nerfs since she was last nerfed! Guess who seems to be next on the cycle? How about we buff her counters instead of assuming she needs gutted any time a tanky meta comes up?

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20156 votes

Vayne handles assassins better than any adc in the game because she can go invisible, has a knockback, a low CD reposition, and her dueling power is very high. Good luck 1v1ing a good Vayne if you're playing Rengar, Zed, or Kha'zix.

LaowPingJul 23, 20153 votes

Rengar can one shot her easily. Just hit her with the bola root when you jump and she can't go anywhere. For Kha'ziks it depends on how fed he is but he can one shot Vayne late game. Zed can get out played but he also can outplay Vayne with proper use of his shadows.

CanechurchJul 23, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-23T01:56:07.826+0000)

It does when that champion is constantly touted as hard to play with a high skill cap. If Draven, Yasuo, or Lee Sin ever managed both a 50%+ win rate and 30%+ pick rate, that probably means they're quite overpowered. When a champion is that popular, it not only means that they're being played by tons of people inexperienced with the champion, but it also means that champion is also constantly picked without regard for synergy with teammates or consideration of enemy counter picks. Maintaining a solid win rate under those circumstances implies that the champion is even stronger than their stats would appear to show.

Or you could actually look at experience curves instead of assuming that touting=truth

For example;

http://champion.gg/champion/Azir/Middle Azir has a change of 13% in rate between new and experienced players, we agree that's a high skill floor champion (cap is the wrong word I think for what you're expressing, thats the most you can get out of them while floor is the least you need to succeed)

Conversely, http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne/ADC Vayne has a change of only ¬4.87% between unexperienced and experienced users. That's a softer curve than Garen.

Furthermore, despite her high pick rate (33%), only ¬18.33% of players who pick Vayne have less than 15 games with her, and 48% with less than 50 (these are high numbers for adcs).

I'm not saying Vayne isn't a strong pick but you guys are making a lot of assumptions without looking for numbers, which tell a slightly different story.

For fun; Ashe has some super weird stats

http://champion.gg/champion/Ashe/ADC

EDIT: Fixed Vayne pick stats having misread the chart earlier

Slamurai JackJul 23, 20152 votes

That doesn't surprise me at all. Even though the curve for Garen is larger than it is for Vayne, that fails to account for 2 very important things. The first is that Garen is a top laner while Vayne is an adc, and I would say that experience with a champion matters more in top lane than it does any anywhere else due to the volatile and snowbally nature of top lane. Another important difference is that Vayne is a champion that is decent early and scales progressively harder as the game goes on while Garen is strong early and mid game and then falls off later. Most people can play safe and farm decently even on champions they're not super comfortable on, but it takes a far greater amount of knowledge and moxie to play early-mid game champs and close games with them.

That to me explains the great disparity in win rates for Garen, not necessarily that he's got a higher skill cap. There's clearly a far greater difference between a 1 first Vayne versus one with 1000 games, than there is with a Garen and similar experience.

CanechurchJul 23, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Slamurai Jack,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000040000,timestamp=2015-07-23T11:44:20.934+0000)

That doesn't surprise me at all. Even though the curve for Garen is larger than it is for Vayne, that fails to account for 2 very important things. The first is that Garen is a top laner while Vayne is an adc, and I would say that experience with a champion matters more in top lane than it does any anywhere else due to the volatile and snowbally nature of top lane. Another important difference is that Vayne is a champion that is decent early and scales progressively harder as the game goes on while Garen is strong early and mid game and then falls off later. Most people can play safe and farm decently even on champions they're not super comfortable on, but it takes a far greater amount of knowledge and moxie to play early-mid game champs and close games with them.

That to me explains the great disparity in win rates for Garen, not necessarily that he's got a higher skill cap. There's clearly a far greater difference between a 1 first Vayne versus one with 1000 games, than there is with a Garen and similar experience.

I agree - also that top lane counters are very important and knowing how to play against that is tricky as Garen.

My point was simply to correct some of the assumptions made, like that Vayne has a steep learning curve (It's not that steep relatively speaking, given that kalista has a 12% slope and draven a 9% slope on the high end with caitlyn having a 3% slope and sivir with a 2% slope on the low end) and that she's often played by unexperienced players because of her popularity which drags her win rate down (only 18% with less than 15 games played, I misread the chart earlier, 48% with less than 50) compared to Sivir for example who has 51.5% with less than 15 games played and 84% with less than 50.

Draven is a nice case study actually for comparison to vayne - steeper learning curve, equivalent breakdown of players (23% less than 15, ¬50% less than 50) with a win rate of 52% on average.

Another bit of evidence in the favor of dispelling the " A lot of nubs cause shes popular dragging the win rate down" myth is the fact that Vayne has the 3rd highest average number of games played per player at 97.7 (behind quinn with 122 and draven with 134)

BetaDude40Jul 23, 201540 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drunken Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-23T01:31:04.248+0000)

i dont mean Gold 5 vayne players like you who dont even know what proper CSing is.

I agree on your point here with Vayne, but there's no need for rank bashing. It's counterproductive to your argument to say that.

DemacryJul 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

I agree on your point here with Vayne, but there's no need for rank bashing. It's counterproductive to your argument to say that.

It's not counterproductive at all. If a champion is balanced for 97% of the player base but completely broken at the highest levels of play then there's an issue. Proper cs'ing leads to earlier spikes which leads to true matchup strengths and weaknesses. If low level players aren't able to perform at near perfect levels on a champion then, objectively, they aren't able to really understand a champions potential for abuse.

YumaS2AstralJul 23, 201511 votes

{quoted}

It's not counterproductive at all. If a champion is balanced for 97% of the player base but completely broken at the highest levels of play then there's an issue. Proper cs'ing leads to earlier spikes which leads to true matchup strengths and weaknesses. If low level players aren't able to perform at near perfect levels on a champion then, objectively, they aren't able to really understand a champions potential for abuse.

This is still not a reason for rank bashing.

SlackerboyTCJul 23, 201510 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drunken Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2015-07-23T01:31:04.248+0000)

i said Diamond not overall Diamond is 50,66% i dont mean Gold 5 vayne players like you who dont even know what proper CSing is.

Gee, I didn't know I had to sell my soul to my pc just to properly CS

FadedpfJul 23, 20155 votes

Gut her and nerf her favorite item item 3153

GodarenJul 23, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Gut her and nerf her favorite item

why would you nerf bork? it is legit the only thing that allows a lot of adcs to have any chance vs tanks, hit vayne with a nerf if you must but pls dont nerf that

FadedpfJul 23, 20155 votes

item 3031 item 3072 item 3046 item 3035 item 3006 and item 3102 (to survive mages and thormail) all of this = bye tanks. Only a few adcs actually use bork so it is better to give it a nerf because it is too strong right now.

AwesomeChadJul 23, 20155 votes

I'm a diamond 2 Vayne main and I can attest to this. If you think vayne is weak in lane, you've either seen really bad vayne players OR the support is almost non-existent in the lane. Vayne holds high outplay potential with 3 major powerspikes: lvl 2, 3, and 6 level advantages. If you can continuously proc silver bolts, you will win trades. If you can condemn the enemy into a structure/wall, you will win the trade. If you're not procing silver bolts, you're not playing vayne properly and most likely will lose trades. Aside from this, its also crucial you maintain good minion wave control. Vayne's biggest exploitable flaw is that shes reliant on her autoattack for everything from wave clear to harassing. Use tumble to inch yourself closer to the enemy and attack or walk up to attack and tumble away immediately. A good vayne knows what she needs to do in order to get a good laning phase.

BakedLotionJul 23, 20154 votes

Auto > Tumble > Auto. Oh did i just take out 1/3rd of your while you only got one auto off on me? Sry only I can do that because i have weak early game and laning phase.

DengedenJul 23, 20154 votes

Because, since she's essentially an assassin, she just needs 1 opening to kill anyone on your team. You can't expect your team to play perfectly in SoloQ (especially if either the support, ADC or jungler aren't in their main roles).

"Vayne is weak in lane" is a fact. She has no wave clear, meaning she gets pushed in. Silver bolts proc on every 3rd auto, meaning she has to blow her entire kit (AA resets, biyotch) to do meaningful damage in most cases. Then again, "Lee Sin falls of late" is also a fact and nobody here believes that either.

bbyOniJul 23, 20152 votes

exactly. Strong lane imo is defined as being able to push early and get turret so you can effectively end laning phase quickly. Don't see how vayne can do this solo without a support when shes basically just a ranged assasin with no wave clear. She's opportunistic in nature and if youre giving the opportunities she needs to kill you in lane then you probably deserve to lose.

TheGrandAllianceJul 23, 20153 votes

Lol the upvotes on this one is hillarous. Nerf someone because they are a viable champion? What are you... a NOOB or something? L2P plz.

Drunken YasuoJul 23, 201520 votes

L2P? im 16 Divisions higher than you, dont even try to talk about "L2P" when youre Silver 5 0LP LOL

TheGrandAllianceJul 23, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Drunken Yasuo,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hLELqgXM,comment-id=000d0000,timestamp=2015-07-23T05:18:01.563+0000)

L2P? im 16 Divisions higher than you, dont even try to talk about "L2P" when youre Silver 5 0LP LOL

First of all your EUW. Secondly I stopped playing ranked the second in relevled into Silver because got fucking tiered of game. BTW that means your still not Challenger rank so.....

BTW only noobs want nerfs... so being that you are calling for a nerf... you are a noob.

When your on an LCS team... then maybe we can talk.

DrMedSchmierpoJul 23, 201514 votes

since when is EUW worse than NA? and i think you stopped with ranked since you cant escape from Silver 5 0 Points :^) youre a joke dude nothing more

TheGrandAllianceJul 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

since when is EUW worse than NA? and i think you stopped with ranked since you cant escape from Silver 5 0 Points :^) youre a joke dude nothing more

Lol if you looked at my match history you would see I had little trouble getting into SIlver once I picked up Leona for Season 5. You would also know that as soon as I won my promo series I stopped playing.

NA Bronze is far worse then EUW... this account was EUW last Season and I was able to go straight into Silver (only playing LoL for a few months).

BTW my rank vs ur rank doesn't matter logically... the point remains that only noobs complain about champions being OP. Last time I check Vayne isn't used, nor is OP, in LCS matchplay.

IF Vayne needed a nerf the pros would make this point clear. Because she isn't OP you are just blowing smoke.

Drunken YasuoJul 23, 20158 votes