The Kalista Problem

CaptainAntiHeroz··3 votes·2,538 views

No ADC should rely on another champion to be able to do damage or exist as a champion.


You maybe thinking, but supports exist for a reason, and yes, this is true; a support exists to prevent an adc from dying and to set up their damage or set up plays that an adc wouldn't and shouldn't be able to set up on their own.

Which means we have to ask if Kalista is on her own can she still be semi-functional, like every other adc. The answer is no. She needs a specific player (the oathsworn) to get her bonus damage. #"Passive: When Kalista and her Oathsworn both basic attack the same target, she deals 10/12/14/16/18% of their max health as magic damage. 10 second cooldown per target. " Which was just buffed this patch. Kalista doesn't do damage without the oathsworn in lane unless shes insanely ahead, which she rarely ever is nowadays.

Fates call is also terrible outside of coordinated play.

"Kalista teleports the Oathsworn ally to herself. They gain the ability to dash toward a position, knocking enemy champions back.

#Draw Kalista's Oathsworn to her. For up to 4 seconds, the Oathsworn is untargetable and pacified.The Oathsworn may mouse click to fly toward target position, stopping at the first enemy champion hit and knocking all enemies in a small radius back.Kalista's Oathsworn must be within 1100 units for her to cast this ability." One, shes so under played when you cast the ability on a champion half the time they don't know what the hell is happening to their champion, and two it also DEPENDS on the oathsworn being near Kalista.

These boosts to her damage with her oathsworn can still exist, but if anything she should have something going for her on her own.

Vayne for example has true damage every three hits that do %health, she also has her Q with is similar to Martial Poise Kalista's passive just as an ability that when used gives her next auto bonus damage. She is consistently a top lane pick because she is a tank buster with disengage and a decent laning phase. Her ult also relies on HER OWN kit not another champion. Thus Vayne is capable without a support whereas Kalista sucks without one. Jhin has I dare say one of the best early game wave clear abilities on an ADC (outside of Tristana) and gets movement speed from crits and also has an ability that give him hard cc that is not purely reliant on another champion. Jhin himself can do damage to enemy champions to enable him to proc deadly flourish's root whereas Kalista has no way of getting bonus damage outside of having her oathsworn attacking the same target as her. Lucian can solo lane as well due to his mobility and the fact that his build path is so flexible, you can build crit, cdr, damage, ap if you REALLY feel like it (though it won't do as much as ad builds the option is there). Kalista in comparison has a single build item 3153 item 3085 item 3006 and has no really solo pressure unlike Lucian. Kaisa while comparing anything to Kai'sa might be a little unfair, Kalista and Kai'sa are both great at taking jungle objectives. Kai'sa because of her passive plasma and Kalista because of rend. However, Kai'sa can also have plasma applied for her by allies which enabled her to use her ult without actually hitting an enemy champion herself. Kalista however can't gain rend stacks outside of attacking the champion with either her q or her auto attacks, and cannot ult without her oathsworn being present.

This is just a handful of examples, Ezreal is extremely safe, has multiple build paths, and isn't reliant on a support Jinx has a way of gaining stats without needing a support to do anything (her Q and passive) and has an ult that isn't reliant on any conditions Tristana has better follow up to a support engage with her w which she can reset and also has a play making ult Twitch Q gives him an attack speed steroid Teemo has a blind that gives him an advantage in an auto attack battle Ashe has a slow, a better vision ability, hard cc, an auto attack reset Caitlyn has better range, and a passive that gives her more damage especially while in a bush Draven has both a damage steroid and an attack speed steroid KogMaw has an attack range steroid and can go beyond the attack speed cap MissFortune has a variety of build paths and a more reliable ult along with passive movement speed that can be used as an attack speed steroid as well Xayah Shreds literally everything from towers to dragons and has situational cc that is reliant on her own usage of her feathers Varus passive gives him attack speed even when he only kills minions, W passive and active make him great at executes like Kalista with multiple rend stacks however his ult synergizes better than kalista's because his ult enables him to cc targets, use up his blight stacks and then restack them to do more damage than Kalista whose rend only resets if you get a kill on something with it otherwise its on cooldown Quinn has an attack speed steroid and damage buff built in Sivir Attack speed steroid attached to multi-target damage WITH a spell shield that refunds mana upon blocking an enemy ability

So what exactly is Kalista supposed to do here? She offers nothing on her own, she doesn't get the luxury of choice, she isn't simple and even if Martial poise were simpler to use she still isn't rewarding enough to pick over literally any other option. Riot needs to prioritize this champion. Though me thinking Kalista is cool and should get fixed is bias (I mean listen to her voice lines holy shit so cool), what isn't bias is that the champion is a dumpster fire and they've changed champions for much less before (I'm looking at you Ezreal).

14 Comments

BLACK REALM GOD2 votes

she suffers from the "tether effect" problem that many items and other champions suffer from.

Kalista Rakan Ryze Skarner TahmKench Taric Thresh Yasuo Yuumi Zilean

item 3383 item 3222 item 3056 item 3107 item 2065 item 3118 item 3050

and just to be clear when I say tether i don't mean literal tether.

part of the reason why these items rarely ever get used (with the exception to redemption) is due to their requirement to always have someone nearby for maximum effect.

and by no means are all of these champion bad because of it. there are just issues with their kits that require compensations.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-11-11T13:21:40.750+0000)

she suffers from the "tether effect" problem that many items and other champions suffer from.

Kalista Rakan Ryze Skarner TahmKench Taric Thresh Yasuo Yuumi Zilean

item 3383 item 3222 item 3056 item 3107 item 2065 item 3118 item 3050

and just to be clear when I say tether i don't mean literal tether.

part of the reason why these items rarely ever get used (with the exception to redemption) is due to their requirement to always have someone nearby for maximum effect.

and by no means are all of these champion bad because of it. there are just issues with their kits that require compensations.

item 3190 item 3109 item 3222 item 3050 item 2065 all also get picked fairly frequently (at least when tanks are in the meta which Leona is). Plus a support being built around teamwork is just how their kits should be focused otherwise you get monsters like TahmKench Pyke Karma An adc isn't designed to work with the team in the same manner so slapping abilities that require a teammate to function on them isn't good (at least not with the direction the game is going)

BLACK REALM GOD1 votes

{quoted}

item 3190 item 3109 item 3222 item 3050 item 2065 all also get picked fairly frequently (at least when tanks are in the meta which Leona is). Plus a support being built around teamwork is just how their kits should be focused otherwise you get monsters like TahmKench Pyke Karma An adc isn't designed to work with the team in the same manner so slapping abilities that require a teammate to function on them isn't good (at least not with the direction the game is going)

that's great. fine and dandy. except in anything less than experienced premade 5 mans these characters and items fall apart - typically.

obviously some compensation buffs that redirect their power can be seen in champions like yasuo. ever wondered why his Q hits so hard when his R doesn't?


what kalista needs is an item that works with her kit or a new kit. her kit is fine... for a support champion. you kind of touched on it, but the damage reduction/increase based on her "oathsworn" is similarly as awful as old mord's bonus xp/gold for laning with an ally.

kalista's hop and her spears are what make her iconic. Her oathsworn is cool too, but needs to be looked at.

I propose that her damage reduction be removed, her hop be static and not rely on an item as well as cause "phasing", her autos deal damage to her when she tosses them, her autos be put on an ammo counter, ripping her spears out of an opponent heals her, and her R grant her oathsworn bonus gold and xp for remaining near kalista as a passive and actively a global pull that summons the oathsworn in front of kalista similar to a shen R but without the shield and more like a braum dash.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=BLACK REALM GOD,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T14:00:17.534+0000)

that's great. fine and dandy. except in anything less than experienced premade 5 mans these characters and items fall apart - typically.

obviously some compensation buffs that redirect their power can be seen in champions like yasuo. ever wondered why his Q hits so hard when his R doesn't?


what kalista needs is an item that works with her kit or a new kit. her kit is fine... for a support champion. you kind of touched on it, but the damage reduction/increase based on her "oathsworn" is similarly as awful as old mord's bonus xp/gold for laning with an ally.

kalista's hop and her spears are what make her iconic. Her oathsworn is cool too, but needs to be looked at.

I propose that her damage reduction be removed, her hop be static and not rely on an item as well as cause "phasing", her autos deal damage to her when she tosses them, her autos be put on an ammo counter, ripping her spears out of an opponent heals her, and her R grant her oathsworn bonus gold and xp for remaining near kalista as a passive and actively a global pull that summons the oathsworn in front of kalista similar to a shen R but without the shield and more like a from dash.

As for the first part the majority of those champions don't fall apart without a premade, not even typically Yuumi and Kalista maybe but even Ryze is able to do a large amount of damage consistently even in low elo wq has been simplified to the point where he is just a spam champion, and if you mean his R, he can use it to taxi himself, in low elo a Ryze doesn't need to play as well as Faker with his ults, he just needs to move himself to a place where he can spam wq and maybe wewq.

Yasuo would prefer a knockup comp but yasuo mains will pick him without it because he can set himself up Rakan has been able to solo lane because his damage was enough to allow him to run electrocute and dominate, and sure he can't run full ap electrocute in a solo lane now, however he still is capable without a premade in general Thresh is good if you are good at him Skarner maaaaaaaaaaaaaybe to keep your jungle YOUR jungle with his passive, and people following up on his R but people following up isn't specific to this champion Taric nope, because if you get someone to follow your pings and know when Taric is able to engage TahmKench was grossly overpowered for a long time Zilean has nothing that requires coordinated team play that can't be pinged to randos (his ult being on or off cd)

for the second part Kalista needs a rework even if it were to do away with martial poise or compact it into an ability with resets and cooldown acceleration. Kalista doesn't need anything that would harm herself she isn't mundo Ammo on Kalista would SUCK on an attack speed champion While I do like the ideas of a global Fate's Call 1 it'd be overpowered as hell and two imagine playing top lane and BOOM you're now in a bot lane team fight, because being realistic you would either bond a solo laner or jungler to make your lane a 3v2 post 6

The thigh guy2 votes

Kalista used to be strong as a champion without her ult. Then riot absolutely gutted her because of pro play, and even though her pro play aspect is basically gone (objective taking power) they refuse to let her even become playable again for some reason.

So they tie a huge chunk of her power into a rando on your team.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-11-11T14:18:20.891+0000)

Kalista used to be strong as a champion without her ult. Then riot absolutely gutted her because of pro play, and even though her pro play aspect is basically gone (objective taking power) they refuse to let her even become playable again for some reason.

So they tie a huge chunk of her power into a rando on your team.

I'm well aware of old Kalista dominating Coordinated play on her should be rewarded not mandated is the biggest problem, it forces her to be extremely inflexible

UKP LK1 votes

? is this a new champ I have never seen her in game at all wtf :O? LOL its a champ?

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=UKP LK,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2019-11-11T19:23:24.468+0000)

? is this a new champ I have never seen her in game at all wtf :O? LOL its a champ?

she came out in 2015 i think

General Esdeath 1 votes

It's not just her, it's a lot of champs. They can't function without X so everything else is buffed.

Sylas has an insanely overloaded kit to make up for the fact he doesn't have an ult and can't take the same ult until like 2 minutes pass

Xayah Rakan have to be good enough to work with different lane partners, but when they're together they get so many buffs

Yuumi works at like 10% of her full potential without being on someone

Ryze Pantheon get huge damage on QWE (and in Ryze's case bonus damage when he levels R) because their ults are more for utility.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2019-11-11T21:02:10.523+0000)

It's not just her, it's a lot of champs. They can't function without X so everything else is buffed.

Sylas has an insanely overloaded kit to make up for the fact he doesn't have an ult and can't take the same ult until like 2 minutes pass

Xayah Rakan have to be good enough to work with different lane partners, but when they're together they get so many buffs

Yuumi works at like 10% of her full potential without being on someone

Ryze Pantheon get huge damage on QWE (and in Ryze's case bonus damage when he levels R) because their ults are more for utility.

yet kalista has no compensation where most of those champions do

Xayah has insane damage Rakan can be played solo because of good damage (and he has been in the past) Sylas has built in sustain and decent burst Ryze has excessive spam I don't know why Pantheon is even there

Yuumi is the only one who has a real place in this spot because she is MADE to be played with someone just like most supports are Whereas Kalista is an adc that relies on a support for more than just keeping her alive, she also needs her support to literally do everything for her basically

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

yet kalista has no compensation where most of those champions do

Xayah has insane damage Rakan can be played solo because of good damage (and he has been in the past) Sylas has built in sustain and decent burst Ryze has excessive spam I don't know why Pantheon is even there

Yuumi is the only one who has a real place in this spot because she is MADE to be played with someone just like most supports are Whereas Kalista is an adc that relies on a support for more than just keeping her alive, she also needs her support to literally do everything for her basically

I'd have to do some digging but iirc Kalista's passive used to make her jump faster and farther, meaning she was the best at kiting and chasing (of any marksman) and with her bork build she could shred tanks, and with high damage on her E and Q could delete squishy targets. She was the first of her kind with this problem (needing another champ) and I think Riot learned from that mistake but tbh I think she should lose the bonus damage on W and get back her passive power, she was my favorite ADC and I think she was the one I won lane with the most.

CaptainAntiHeroz1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hL2eb2bJ,comment-id=000300000000,timestamp=2019-11-11T21:46:40.376+0000)

I'd have to do some digging but iirc Kalista's passive used to make her jump faster and farther, meaning she was the best at kiting and chasing (of any marksman) and with her bork build she could shred tanks, and with high damage on her E and Q could delete squishy targets. She was the first of her kind with this problem (needing another champ) and I think Riot learned from that mistake but tbh I think she should lose the bonus damage on W and get back her passive power, she was my favorite ADC and I think she was the one I won lane with the most.

well yeah, and if she was kiting backwards she jumped farther however the changes have destroyed her and only dedicated Kalista mains even bother TRYING to play this champion she needs a rework desperately at this point

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

well yeah, and if she was kiting backwards she jumped farther however the changes have destroyed her and only dedicated Kalista mains even bother TRYING to play this champion she needs a rework desperately at this point

I still play her from time to time with friends but they put way too much power into her support having to know what to do. I think she needs her speed back but not the increased distance on leaps backwards, and less damage on her W.

Hayaishi21 votes

Kalista's problem is her passive. That champion will never be allowed to be viable because of it.

If you want Kalista playable her passive needs to be balanced so she doesn't invalidate anything with a skillshot and melee.

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