I would like to see Cleaver reworked again

Big Lincoln··3 votes·753 views

i think it is too generally powerful and too easily abusable

What i want to see is to shift the armor shred stacking to scaling with time in combat. id actually like to replace the armor shred with some other form of damage boost entirely, but I can't think of anything that would dent tanks while not also making it easy to nuke squishies. possible it could just become % pen for selfish purposes

this reduces the cheese potential of MF/lucian and makes it worse on assassins unless they spend a while in the fight, but keeps the item viable on sustained damage fighters and possibly become more accessible to other ADCs provided they actually stay in the fight long enough

i think BC changes would be a good step to addressing quickness of teamfights and the general OPness of AD, while also trying to maintain its importance for juggernauts etc.

17 Comments

SS Enforcer1 votes

It's a cute idea, but there are two problems with it:

  1. With the current cleaver, you reduce the opponent's armor, giving your teammates bonus damage on the target. How would that work with this black cleaver?

  2. The kindlegem changes were more than enough to stop people from building cleaver on adcs and assassins. If say, an enemy zed is building cleaver and is winning, then you've done something very wrong.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

What, the kindlegem didn't stop people from building it, its not a 1st/2nd item.

SS Enforcer1 votes

http://i.imgur.com/d3KRufw.png

Maybe it didn't stop people from building it, but as you see here, all builds that feature cleaver have a sub50% winrate. Also adcs, (the biggest bc abuser being lucian) completely stopped building the item, so i think the kindlegem changes were a success.

MrHaZeYo1 votes

Luc is back to the Bork/Tri force build after Bork got buffed, and I'd say MF was the ADC that abused BC the most, she's still building it.

The Kindle gem isn't ruining the build for Assassins or ADCs, trading 10 AD for 100 HP is actually pro benefical for them as it offers there natural glass cannon builds more sustain.

SS Enforcer1 votes

You can pretend like bc is still as useful for talon and zed as it was before, but statistics don't lie.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SS Enforcer,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hJU9uIKi,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-03-16T11:32:04.363+0000)

http://i.imgur.com/d3KRufw.png

Maybe it didn't stop people from building it, but as you see here, all builds that feature cleaver have a sub50% winrate. Also adcs, (the biggest bc abuser being lucian) completely stopped building the item, so i think the kindlegem changes were a success.

... But lucian is literally an AD caster. Hes meant to have the option to build A-pen. So is corki, ezreal, and varus to name a few.

SS Enforcer1 votes

Lucian has plenty of armor penetration options besides black cleaver. Corki doesn't need armor penetration because he is the textbook example of a mixed damage carry Ezreal doesn't need armor penetration because he is an adc reliant on poke and has other alternatives to maximize his damage output. Same goes for varus.

Paroe1 votes

[{quoted}](name=SS Enforcer,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hJU9uIKi,comment-id=00000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-03-16T12:57:18.715+0000)

Lucian has plenty of armor penetration options besides black cleaver. Corki doesn't need armor penetration because he is the textbook example of a mixed damage carry Ezreal doesn't need armor penetration because he is an adc reliant on poke and has other alternatives to maximize his damage output. Same goes for varus.

Yes but theyre AD casters. The fact that lucian and varus have other options where zed and talon is due to them being RANGED AD casters. It gives them synergy with with other builds.

Lets take Nocturne as an example of what an AD caster IS NOT. Nocturne, like marksman, synergizes with crit. His damage comes not from abilities, but from basic attacks. He has abilities, but they supplementary and not core. Varus synergizes with crit because he is ranged, but the majority of his damage comes from his abilities unless he all ins. Same thing with lucian; youre never mindlessly basic attacking like you do with caitlyn or jinx, youre using abilities in between your basic attacks to do your damage.

I cannot tell you how many marksman thought they could duel a item 3078 lucian with just item 3031 item 3085. They lost every time unless they had CC or red buff.

B00B001 votes

well not really considering currently GB/Edge and **cleaver **are Zeds core items, same with talon.

Big Lincoln1 votes

With the current cleaver, you reduce the opponent's armor, giving your teammates bonus damage on the target. How would that work with this black cleaver?

none, that's the point. cleaver is already an incredibly strong selfish purchase; it making your teammates stronger indirectly is too much, and kind of makes armor feel like a shitty purchase. nobody buys it for the sake of empowering their teammates

The kindlegem changes were more than enough to stop people from building cleaver on adcs and assassins. If say, an enemy zed is building cleaver and is winning, then you've done something very wrong.

as i said, i don't mind ADCs building this version if it took time to reach full power; i had a problem with it being abused by miss fortune and lucian to delete someone's armor in the first few hits of their ultimate/full combo. the change is meant to both slow the game down a little bit and give champs the option to switch from up-front power to ramping strength

fuffychan1 votes

It needs the CDR reduced to 10% and the armor shred removed at the minimum.

The AD and/or HP should take a hit as well (and lower the cost)

Master Vemira1 votes

they should give it a passive like lord dominiks, honestly, the armor shred is really, worhtless, most assassins wont live long enough to stack it if theyre fighting a tank,, adcs are really the only ones who could stack it fast enough in the normal team fight lengths before the target is dead

Big Lincoln1 votes

actually zed and talon can stack it pretty quickly, between zeds combo and talons bleed + combo they can very quickly reduce your armor by a strong amount.

Oleandervine1 votes

I went from rushing Black Cleaver on MF to having it be like my 3rd item after crit items with both the Q changes and the Kindlegem added to the build path. While, yes, I still do build the item on her, it isn't usually until mid-late when it really starts to shine now.

Big Lincoln1 votes

it's still too strong on it's own IMO. for one item it gives a lot; I want to trim some of it's power in addition to refocusing it

Ralanr1 votes

Making it give a more selfish effect might be the way to go. Or remove its synergy with AA. For an AD caster item, it offers a lot for AA champions.

Master Vemira1 votes

it must be nice playing in 3 que flex draft, in solo que, you get focused instantly, and they will flash cc you, just so you cant do a damn thing

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