Why the Ryze Rework Failed, and what Riot can do to fix him.

Doozku··21 votes·7,905 views

http://img03.deviantart.net/a723/i/2016/137/f/2/ryze_by_zippo514-da2v37l.jpg #Intro Ryze is famous for being constantly reworked over and over, to the point where his reworks have become a meme. Because of this rework fatigue, people really don't want to see more Ryze changes. They'd rather put other champions in the rework spotlight. While that's fair, I think we should evaluate a champion that has consistently some of the lowest winrates in league history.

With Ryze's rework, Riot attempted to move Ryze out of constantly being in the LCS, and they tried to lower his skill floor so he doesn't perform abysmally in lower ratings. However I believe that Riot has failed the rework in this regard, as well as bringing several other problems that Ryze has to light. I think its time to evaluate what went wrong here.

#Passive: More Mana, More Problems Ryze has always had a mana scaling on his passive. This rework brought it one stop further by giving his mana an AP scaling, meaning that building AP gives you more mana which is more damage. Let me list the problems with this passive:

  1. This passive allows Ryze to build tankier items while not losing out on damage because a lot of them also give AP item 3027
  2. This passive gives Ryze a double scaling on AP, as well as a scaling on mana. Ryze gets more out of building AP than other mages, and items that give both AP and Mana become really strong on him. item 3027 item 3040
  3. Ryze is a mage with high mana costs, like say Anivia. But unlike Anivia, he is not punished for building mana because of his passive scaling. An Anivia has to decide whether or not they want to have more mana so she can use more spells more often, and so her R can last longer. If she wants more damage, she will have to build ap, but she won't be able to spam her spells constantly. Ryze can just build a lot of mana items early without losing on damage, and then late game build AP which scales off of his mana pool and gives even more mana. #Uninteractive Laning This is a problem that Malzahar, both new and old, has. Basically because of his root+shield combo, and his incredible waveclear, Ryze can play the lane incredibly safely by farming up and constantly shoving. His early damage isn't anything to laugh at either. His shield combo lets him get free trades as he still does damage and stops any retaliation with own shield. His all ins are also really strong, with his cc to lock you down and burst you down with his strong combos. Couple that with a really good late game, and you have a monster of a champion. #Instant Root is really good Point and click cc is something that is being phased out of the game simply because of how strong it is. While it is good for countering mobile champions, it beats immobile champions just as hard. This leads to this form of cc being really good and reliable, especially in higher elos and pro-play where players rely heavily on ganks to get kills. A good ryze snare can guarantee a kill if coupled up with a strong ganking jungler like Zac or LeeSin. This means that Ryze is a really reliable pick in these higher ranks. Not to mention the lack of counterplay that comes with a point and click root. The only thing the opponent can do is stay out of range, or attack Ryze while they're snared. But because of how his shield works, he will usually get it after a root making that option weak. #Ultimate Woes Ryze has always had a problem with his ultimate. His old ultimate was good but it wasn't very exciting to use. It just gave Ryze spell vamp and made his spells AOE. It had a really low cd, and gave him some free cdr, so you basically always had this up on every fight. It just was not a very exciting ultimate to use outside of using it in a teamfight when you were fed to get a pentakill. This new ultimate is not much better. While its cool on paper, in practice it is not a very well designed spell. Basically this spell is 100% better when you have voice comms. When you don't have voice comms, its basically a shitty tf ultimate that you can use to troll teammates, manage waves (something that low elo players won't do.), or accidentally take your ADC into the enemy backline when you meant to take your tank back there. With voice comms, however, this is one of the strongest ultimates in the game. It can be used to make epic rotations, put your fed Darius on top of the enemy ADC, assist your jungler in flanking the enemy, or even in solo lane outplays. Because of this, the ultimate makes Ryze incredibly good in pro-play, and really bad in solo queue, which is what Riot was intending to fix with his Rework. Speaking of being good in high level play... #Good for the Good, Bad for the Bad Ryze has always been a difficult, yet rewarding champion to master. This rework is no exception. With his incredibly hard to use properly ultimate combined with his intricate combos and different ways to play the same situations, Ryze is one of the highest skill cap champions in the game. While some players claim he is really easy to pick up and learn, his winrates tend to disagree. Ryze is currently sitting at 40% winrate. Even when he was considered pick-or-ban, he had around a 45% winrate which is really low, especially for an overpowered champion. While new players can use the same simple combos, those combos are not going to be effective and they are going to end up in bad situations a whole lot more than a good Ryze player. Ryze is also a mage that needs to be close to the fight, and that a lot of his teamfight damage relies on him casting a spell twice on a target that is in the middle of the enemy team. Because of this, it is very difficult to learn positioning on Ryze. Once you learn him, however, he becomes one of the strongest champions in the game. With tons of options, high damage, and really good safety, he becomes a monster in the right hands. This becomes especially true in pro-play, where players can communicate with their team and set up insane plays with his ultimate, which allows Ryze to become a top-tier champion whenever he is decent. #Fixing Ryze Ryze is a champion that needs a lot of work to finally become balanced, and while I don't claim to be a great game developer or champion designer, these are my ideas for fixing Ryze. #Give him more clear weaknesses Ryze is a champion that lacks counters or weaknesses. His only true weakness is that he is short ranged, but that is countered by his high tankiness, really good shields, and movespeed buff that allows him to gap-closer. He also doesn't have any real moments of power. Because of his low cooldowns and the fact that he doesn't need an ultimate to kill you, he will always be ready to fight. Perhaps removing his mana scaling passive and forcing him to think more about spamming his spells will help in this regard, since there would be actual repercussions to using them. #Give him a better ultimate This one is tricky. Ryze has never really relied on his ultimate, and I don't think he should. But despite that, his ultimates have consistently been poorly designed. I think Ryze should have an ultimate that helps him equally in low elo, and high elo, without buffing his damage to insane levels. But that will be difficult to implement. Because of that, I feel like riot should experiment with giving Ryze 4 basic abilities, like a Udyr. It would fit thematically, since Ryze is a mage with several spells that he can use on demand, so this would be one of them. It would also make his combo game more complex since he has new tools to play with. #Weaken his laning phase, and remove his insane early waveclear Old Ryze used to have really good waveclear, but he would need stacks of his passive and his ultimate to clear a wave. This meant that there were drawbacks to his insane waveclear. New Ryze gets really good waveclear from level 1, and he is one of few champions to have really strong waveclear pre-6. Champions that have waveclear like this include Malzahar when he was good, and Heimerdinger, both of whom are pretty toxic champions that are in need of changes as well. So we can conclude that having insane waveclear before getting an item or an ultimate is not very healthy for the game. He also has really high damage during the lane phase. I think increasing the mana cost on his Q, but having it refund on minion kills would decrease the urge for him to want to fight in lane, while not punishing him for using it to farm. #Give him basic combos for basic situations, and then advanced combos Right now Ryze has several combos that you need to learn before you can do well with him, this gives him too much of a high skill floor, making his winrates in lower ranks plummet. By giving a few basic bread and butter combos, new players can rely on and learn those combos, and then learn some more advanced combos as they get better at the champion. Ryze will always be hard to play, but making his skill floor more simple will go a long way towards helping him become balanced #Give his root more ways to be played around Right now, his root has to be nerfed because of how strong of a tool it is. If the root had more ways to be countered, it could be a more healthy ability. Perhaps making it work like a Karthus Q, where you place it on the ground and it triggers after a half-second may help, although that may make his combos less fluid. Maybe making his snare be mainly used for starting combos and not as useful in the middle of combos would be the way to go (this is where my 4th spell would come into play. With his snare less potent for comboing, Ryze would need a fourth spell in his combos to make him more useful.)

#TL;DR Ryze is a champion who is in a really bad state right now. He is way too safe in lane, has too much early waveclear, he gets too much power from mana which allows him to stack mana without sacrificing damage, his ultimate is really good in coordinated teams and pro-play, but really bad in solo-queue, and he is way too hard for new players. He should lose some of his safety and waveclear from his lane, he should get a new ultimate and passive, and his skill floor should raised without sacrificing his skill ceiling. #TL;DR TL;DR rito fix ryze. ult gives me an aneurysm he has too much free push and is too hard in wood 10 plz fix : ^)

PS: don't look up ryze on google images

edit: i'm really bad at spelling aren't I

49 Comments

cinomenapplebae19 votes

PS: don't look up ryze on google images

jesus christ that one image

Doozku1 votes

was looking for an image to put on the thumbnail of this and then I found that picture.

God help us all.

Avios12 votes

I didn't listen.....

My eyes........

http://www.reactiongifs.com/r/mye.gif

Doozku1 votes

By telling you not to do it, I convinced you to go ahead and do it. I'm such a despicable person. [zombie-nunu-tears]

rtbf2256182411 votes

Not even Death will erase it from my memory.

IA9hRfpP5q1 votes

{quoted}

jesus christ that one image

lmao

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

You silly kids don't know what horror is

SEKAI1 votes

[{quoted}](name=I Do Not Exist,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=hBdIdIO2,comment-id=00000002,timestamp=2017-05-07T10:58:22.619+0000)

You silly kids don't know what horror is

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5GyxaeeoXJk

SEKAI1 votes

{quoted}

jesus christ that one image

http://i.imgur.com/mJR2h.jpg

ModKnightsKemplar5 votes

This is a great thread. Gotta admit, took some energy to convince myself to read it, but I'm glad I did.

I think that giving Ryze a clear weakness is the strong point of your argument. Riot thought they were doing that with the last rework, but the fact is that he can stack his passive so quickly that there isn't a real window; additionally, the opponent isn't in control of that window, Ryze is. So HE can wait until it's a good time to have his passive down to play passive.

That stands in stark contrast to a champ like Gnar, who has windows of power that the Gnar player can only roughly control. Riot needs to get realistic about those windows of power and how they work.

With regards to combos, I'm just not sure that League is the right game for a champion with intricate combos. Every champ has some combos, but most are relatively simple, such as blitz Q into E. These are things that are somewhat obvious to pull off, and it's those champions that can be reasonably well balanced without being OP in pro play.

I don't see a strong, dedicated Ryze playerbase that is demanding difficult combos to be a part of the champion. I don't see that as being a key of his identity. Those complicated combos are, in my opinion, THE problem with Ryze. I don't see a way to implement those that makes this champ playable at low and high elo at the same time.

This isn't a fighting game. If people want that, plenty of those are out there. It's high time that League realized it's strong suit, and intricate combos ain't it.

Doozku2 votes

Thanks.

Ryze's stack rework was definitely not handled well. It was super easy to stack his passive, and you always did the same combo over and over. It was really binary.

About combos, I think that they are pretty core to Ryze, but whether or not he is healthy is more important than his identity. If Riot removes his combos but ends up making him healthy and balanced, I would buy that rework.

But I think it is too late for something like that. It would require a rework of even higher scope than the one we just had. They had their chance with the last VGU and I doubt they are going to change his kit that drastically again. The most they can really give at this point is a class update or an opportunistic update ala Shyvana, Aatrox, or Rammus. I think a Rammus size update would be perfect for him. He needs change, but removing the combos would be far too much for the smaller updates that he will certainly be getting.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

You aren't wrong.

As long as we're dreaming, I'd like to imagine/point out a world could exist where he didn't have them and was fun and balanced. But yeah, at least for now, the best we can hope for is small changes. I don't think he'll be healthy with that passive as long as he can weave spells that fast, though. He's gonna be trash tier or OP until they can do something with that. That's my prediction.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

Riven has a fighting game vibe, where despite the hatred of her, doesn't seem that bad.

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

Yes. I agree.

But, I think that she has a different reason for that than Ryze. Riven doesn't have the same level of combo that Ryze does, in that her combos are hard to pull off mechanically, but she doesn't have so many options. Once you get the hang of playing her, she's always the same.

It seems to me (not playing EITHER of these champs a lot) that Ryze has similarly difficult combos, but he has to switch them up as well. That adds a layer of complexity that Riven just doesn't have. I think that's the difference (again, from my limited perspective).

Doozku4 votes

His combos are much simpler than rivens. Riven has double casts and auto-attack cancels. Ryze just has to press his buttons in the correct sequence. He just has a lot more buttons to press.

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

Fair. Perhaps you're right then. I mean, if he could work with combos, it wouldn't bother me.

Zerenza1 votes

Me and my friend were talking one night and thought it would be cool if his spells did basic things, but his passive gave you a list of combos that would produce completely different spells. Like using your Q+E+R or something would give you an AOE blast instead of a line skillshot.

So in our idea his R was just another basic ability, he wouldn't have an ultimate just a new spell and he'd be able to upgrade to it at level 4 instead of level 6. Then he could combo his four spells together, basically by holding down a basic abilities button for a couple seconds he'd start to activate his passive(visual effect to the enemy player to, like an Aura around ryze) instead of just clicking it he could queue up that spells sequences and perform combos by clicking his other buttons in a certain order within his "Overload" time frame. After casting an advanced spell all of his spells would go on cooldown at once, and in addition he'd pay a more substantial mana cost, meaning he couldn't use his more powerful spells much in lane and his basic spells were to weak to make him to strong in lane but his advanced ones would be devastating later on, a true AP carry.

His spells mostly consisted of different hit box's,damage, ranges and small effects that if used correctly could net him massive advantages

(probably way to complicated for anyone to use but it would be hella fun XD)

Jefftiffy5 votes

Why the Ryze rework failed in one sentence.

They gave him too much waveclear and AoE damage on top of his single target nuke. For a second example look at Leblanc.

Danjeng4 votes

Riot specifically said one of their goals this rework was to make him accessible in both solo queue and competitive. But for some reason, the gap between the two widened with the VGU. I wonder why :o

Maybe it's because they gave him an ultimate which is only utilized in actual teams with mic communication.

A lot of newer champions/reworks have utility ultimates. Such as Taliyah, Tahm Kench, Shen, Poppy... While they aren't top tier in solo queue, they are still well viable. As in they don't have a 38% win rate. This is because their ultimate can be used effectively without as much active participation from team mates. For example, Shen spots a low health ally, then he ults to them, saving them. The low health ally doesn't need to do much besides not die.

We all know those Ryze ults when he was FotM. Where he got a 5 man ult RIGHT on top of the enemy team. The results where always disastrous. The thing is, some team mates AVOID Ryze's ultimate because of those stupid Ryze ults. It gives actual Ryze mains a bad name.

"Ryze - Realm Warp - Ready" "lets siege mid, then I ult us to rush baron" "no way they can reach us trust me"

We siege mid, I ping my ultimate. I ping for help. The enemy team is respawning soon. ADC is still farming minions. I ping again. Enemy team begins to respawn. I ultimate to baron. Jungle, support, top hops in. ADC walks over it, then walks away, because of doubt. Too late to stop. We get warped to baron. ADC is left behind. Now it's a 4v5. Shit. We manage to get baron, but because we don't have an ADC, it takes longer than usual, and the enemy Lee manages to pick off our jungler. Now it's a 3v5. We can't push even with baron buff with only 3 people.

And that's how games usually go for me. Using Realm warp in solo queue is extremely frustrating if your team mates don't trust you. And it seems like a lot of people in solo queue just want to solo carry.

Also when Ryze fluxes a minion, DO NOT KILL IT. RYZE NEEDS IT TO SPREAD FLUX. I swear that some people purposely focus the minions which was just fluxed. I'm not sure why. Maybe they think that they're helping Ryze. Maybe they are greedy and just want the gold.

Doozku1 votes

I was ganking with a jungler and I put the ultimate right behind the enemy but my jungler just walks out of it and walks to the lane. Laner gets away and when I ask my jungler why he didn't go in the ultimate, he said something along the lines of "Because that ultimate is bad," or "Because I don't trust that ultimate," or something to that affect.

Its just so frustrating and one of the main reasons why I want voice comms in this game.

Danjeng1 votes

Man, if you still play Ryze, I always got your back. I know when to go into the ultimate and when not to. I know that you can tell the direction of where it's going to, and its channel time. I won't ever let you down. Tired of those shit ADC's killing your fluxed minions? I'll let you spread it man. You can have the farm and carry. That's right. We gonna go to Diamond together.

On the other hand, if you need a Gold level Ryze with high plat - low Diamond level mechanics (only with Ryze), and silver level game knowledge, you always got me.

Doozku1 votes

I don't play Ryze anymore. Used to be an old Ryze main but I suck really hard at this new one. I really want to like him but his ultimate feels so bad man and I suck at positioning with him. I'll always come back to him, he's one of my favorite champs.

Ralanr3 votes

I think his ultimate is more or less fine. The main issue with Ryze imo is most likely the root, which can't be played around and makes his other combos more reliable.

Make it have counterplay and I think he'll be fine kit wise.

Doozku4 votes

As a person who used to play a bit of Ryze, his ultimate has never felt good to use. At least when you are in a game by yourself. When you are on voice comms with friends, I bet that thing feels amazing.

i wouldn't know because i have no friends [zombie-nunu-tears]

Paquay4 votes

That's the problem with champions like Ryze or Shen or Kled, is their great team-oriented abilities. There is enough power in the kit that when you work together as a cohesive unit, they can be very powerful. But in solo queue where the majority of the world plays, it diminishes their effectiveness to a point they seem underpowered and half their kit seems useless.

As much as everyone hates on Riot's balance team, these champions are tough. You need to have good team fighters for higher levels of play, but it makes them such crap at lower levels.

hallfro1 votes

I can see how champions "only being good with a coordinated team" can feel bad. But I also feel like it's a necessary part of the game. League is a team game, no matter what people tell you, so it only makes sense that there would be at least a few champions who have heavily team-oriented abilities. And honestly, when you use them well and your team works together, it feels GREAT. It's just at the expense of solo queue.

Doozku1 votes

Its not like these abilities are completely toxic. It's just that ryze's in particular isn't very good. When you see a Kled ult, you know that you should follow it. You know where he's going, and you know that you are in control when he's ulting you in. When you see a Ryze ult, you remember all of those videos of people being ulted into the fountain and avoid it all you can. Also Ryze's utlimate takes much more coordination than other ultimates, like kled. If a teammate misunderstands you, the entire ultimate and even the teamfight can be wasted because you ported your adc into the backline instead of your tank.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Riot has said that they're fine with niche champs. Why can't Ryze be a niche for team play, like Kalista?

Sad Tyrant2 votes

on the Ult, I agree

On the clear weakness, isn't he slow and basically requires Ghost and Flash to get around.

He can't get his main items without sacrficing time and CDR or defenses like item 3116 item 3157 item 3102 . which in this stomping ground of a game. giving up so much time for item 3027, you are losing by the time you get it.

also, Skill Floor is literally the Lowest possible skill level to play. so i think you got those mixed up

Doozku1 votes

He is slow, but he has a potent movespeed buff that he can use. He is a late game champion so of course if you don't get strong before late game then you are going to lose. Ryze rarely builds Rylais anymore but he does use zhonyas/banshees. He builds them after his core items however.

RottedApples2 votes

all i want to do is play old quinn.

Cosnirak2 votes

What if Ryze's root broke when the champion it's on takes damage from an enemy champion? You'd use it after doing damage to reposition before trying to do more damage or to set up an ally but in a way that's either telegraphed or delays your own damage.

Only Axes2 votes

Also one of those "illusion of skill" champs. Any time I just want to sit back and farm top while one of the nexuses blows up, I got a Ryze spazzing out and trying to montage on me or some shit.

like chill boi you've got one skillshot and 2 combos you aren't impressing anyone

Akali is SO HOT2 votes

I don't know why he needs to have a ranged targeted root in every single one of his reworks. That is one of the biggest problems with all of his reworks. He has massive damage potential and giving him a targeted root to enable him to get it off so easily is just dumb.

Glîtchy1 votes

{quoted} PS: don't look up ryze on google images

I'll take your word for it.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

Just don't give him stacking mechanics pls .. lol

Danjeng1 votes

He does have a stacking mechanic now. Though he only can get two stacks. Each w or e cast generates one stack. Casting Q expels all stacks. Expelling one stack does nothing. Expelling two stacks grants Ryze MS/shielding.

PePsiLemoNN1 votes

What i wanted to say is don't give him one if they rework him again :P

Support Boyyy1 votes

I find that Zyra is actually a great counter to Ryze in mid lane.

SwordOfWar1 votes

Even the TLDR is TLDR Oh my god

Doozku2 votes

fixed it for you

Silverjust1 votes

interesting ideas :)

what if only empowered root would be instant?

Doozku2 votes

That might be a good idea.

Beldori2 votes

Or you know just have him sling enough of his own spells to let him cast it like Kass E since he machineguns spells out

Tobias Brackner1 votes

He seems to function like he always has, just with a roundabout way of doing it aside from mashing spells.

rtbf2256182411 votes

Personally, i don't find this rework a failure at all. He has good range, he is predictable enough and has clear counterplay. His ultimate is well used with good team comps but can also be destructive if used poorly.

TyroneWatermelon1 votes

I thought from a beginning that a full utility ultimate spell on a fucking damage mage isn't a good idea

KenEH1 votes

Why must champs be made to be easier to play in lower ranks? Should effort not be made to systems that help beer players be better? We already have champions that won't see top level play, aside from maybe a huge rework, so why do we need it the other way around?

Small nitpick. Rude did not always have mana scaling on his passive, it was on his spells for a long time.

RainXBlade1 votes

Ryze will probably need 6-8 more reworks before Riot says, "Fck it, were satisfied with this version of Ryze. We're not gonna rework him anymore. Deal with it."

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