Nidalee and her extreme frustration factor, particularly at the professional level

Jaygo41··17 votes·7,792 views

Nidalee is already annoying enough to play against in solo queue. However her worst offenses generally come in professional games. The rate at which she clears the jungle is absolutely offensive. She zones people out of their own jungles and manalessly jumps around, destroying camps at an absurd rate. As a result, the only junglers that are played in the competitive meta are jungles that can scrap with Nidalee. The few tanks that are played are tanks such as Gragas who have game breaking ultimates, absurd innate tankiness, etc. Other than that, I don't see any bruisers aside from Lee Sin, I don't see anybody else besides Elise and Kindred, both of which can fight Nidalee in the early game.

64 Comments

RiotRiot Sotere11 votes

We'll be taking a look at her for 6.11.

TeemoXNidalee2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h6H0bA7Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-13T20:08:51.836+0000)

We'll be taking a look at her for 6.11.

Please gut jungle nidalee, but bring back spear nidalee that was way more healthy

lightdragoon8829 votes

{quoted}

bring back spear nidalee that was way more healthy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDr0mPuyQc

Zyvux3 votes

This person truly does not know what it means to be one shot by a nid spear the moment you spawn because you decided to pick a squishy champ. Even if she goes 0/6 her spears will still chunk 75% of your hp in one hit. Not to mention she had much more mobility due to pounce spam back then, so through that and her heals you couldn't ever kill her.

SaltyKracka6 votes

Just delete the champ. That way everybody will be happy.

DesolationKaizer8 votes

Man, I can't stand when people say "Delete this champ" yadayada.

KVbqbFsC8e1 votes

To be fair, it would be the best solution.

DesolationKaizer2 votes

It really would not be the best solution. It's one thing to delete items and change masteries and such. It's entirely another thing to get rid of a champion.

Jaygo413 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h6H0bA7Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-13T20:08:51.836+0000)

We'll be taking a look at her for 6.11.

How exactly? Is there something you can pinpoint or a direction that you could tell us about that interests you or you believe is something that could be controlled better

21028037DEL12 votes

With a nerf, bro. She needs a nerf, badly. Her jungle clear is way too fast and she's almost impossible to CC long enough to kill her because she just jumps away with a free dash every 3-4 seconds. It's actually absurd. For all this mobility, she needs a large drawback whether that's in the form of less health or less damage to monsters.

Rand0mH3r0X2 votes

Shouldn't Nidalee be the type of champion that forces the opposing player to think and pick someone like Gragas? Her Early game can be ruined with champions who out-damage her, and essentially counter-jungle her early. There's a very high-risk high-reward scheme, and maybe that should be okay? There's options when it comes to dueling it out with Nidalee, but perhaps looking at how her counters, or jungler's synergism with their team, is a larger and better scope rather than focusing on one champion that is proving to be a strong early game contender with the typical late game fall-off.

CaptnJakSparrow8 votes

{quoted}

Shouldn't Nidalee be the type of champion that forces the opposing player to think and pick someone like Gragas? Her Early game can be ruined with champions who out-damage her, and essentially counter-jungle her early. There's a very high-risk high-reward scheme, and maybe that should be okay? There's options when it comes to dueling it out with Nidalee, but perhaps looking at how her counters, or jungler's synergism with their team, is a larger and better scope rather than focusing on one champion that is proving to be a strong early game contender with the typical late game fall-off.

You can't counter jungle someone that clears their whole jungle before you finish your first buff and says Hi to you a level ahead of you with both buffs and already at your other buff ready to kill you.

Rand0mH3r0X1 votes

I hate counter-jungling, but the best way to prevent it is to be the better jungler and have a responsive team. People do double buff camps first then invade, you have to be able to detect and motion. If Nidalee fails, it's an easy 150 gold for top/mid and jg. If your team doesn't care about you (why soloq? matters here) then you'll give up a kill. Unit cohesion is something people have to adapt to, there isn't a champion balance fix to this, unless it's R2Win.

Edit:

Shifting XP away from the buffs and into the other camps, just enough to deny level 3 status from the double-buff camps might stop nidalee's (and other jungles) from doing just those two and invading. That way, another two crows or 1 small golem is needed to reach level three forcing jungles to start another camp taking damage and time.

Lugg1 votes

Thank freaking God.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

@Riot Sotere please don't. You've already nerfed her jungle clear already a couple times this season. Don't change her just because this guy is QQing about her. I think she's quite fine honestly.

BluePolarizer2 votes

she is one of the most broken junglers in the game, being first picked at MSI ahead of Graves, Kindred and other "OP" junglers.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

PFFFTTTT. HAHAHA.

No, she is not.

BluePolarizer1 votes

Bronze opinions vs. what the pros are actually playing. The people in your games aren't even playing Nidalee, hell, they aren't even playing League of Legends.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Wow. Typical rude guy that resorts to bringing out rank to attack a person for their opinions. Not cool bro.

Anyway, people don't play Nid in my elo because there are a bunch of other OP FUCKING CHAMPS they want to play over her. Anyhow, I still think that she's fine and people are QQing for no good reason other to get her gutted. We don't need another gutted champ like Eve. In this instance I really hope Riot decides not to listen to these people.

DorkunedAuras3 votes

No, people don't play nid at your ELO because she takes skill to really utilize well, and at bronze III ELO, that skill doesn't exist.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

I have the skill to utilize her well. I play her for fuck sake, and I play her well. Not all "bronze" players are complete shit, so stop saying everyone is.

Miraweave2 votes

{quoted}

I have the skill to utilize her well. I play her for fuck sake, and I play her well. Not all "bronze" players are complete shit, so stop saying everyone is.

You really don't. She takes diamond level skill to be used effectively, and is basically the best jungler in the game in high elo.

There's a reason she shows up constantly in pro play.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Wow. Stop that. I do have the skill.

Nb3isD5player2 votes

yeah, my bronze friends tell me they're plat/diamondworthy but my teammates suck, and yet I watch their games and i just want to gouge my eyeballs off because they aren't. to tell you the truth, if you were truly skilled you wouldn't be in bronze, and hell, if you were good enough, why wouldn't you climb OUT of your elo instead of QQing over people who tell you that you're bad?

SnugglePuggle941 votes

For your information, I did climb out of bronze last season, then got placed right back in it during placements. After all the awful preseason changes and how the balance is going ,well excuse me for not wanting to play ranked right now because climbing out is even harder than it was last year.

And excuse you for being a rude a**.

I know my skill, and nothing you can say will make me think otherwise. So maybe you should learn to not say anything if you don't have anything nice to say at all. Oh, and one last thing, don't try to turn the tables on me for calling you a rude a**, because you clearly deserve it for attacking someone about their rank.

BluePolarizer2 votes

you mean OP champs like Nid? She's OP outside of bronze. That's why the pros pick her. Not because she's "fun", but because the pros want to win.

Ultîma2 votes

Will a mana cost be ever considered on her Pounce? Hyper-mobility has, historically, always caused in League, especially on assassins. It seems like limiting her in some capacity in this area might help address some of her most overbearing issue (her absolutely insane roaming/damage potential).

sWeixin VinLeous1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h6H0bA7Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-13T20:08:51.836+0000)

We'll be taking a look at her for 6.11.

finally. fuck

JewZeus Christ2 votes

Yea, i heard this ~3 years ago, and nothing changes.

hyper-mobility, long range autos, longer range skill shots, insane gapcloser, extreme kite, hop walls, runs fastener in brush. Mana base champ, where skills dont use mana. did i mention heals and huge burst ANd tanky?

RIOT, I've lost faith in any ability to balance the game.

KazeNekochan2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h6H0bA7Z,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2016-05-13T20:08:51.836+0000)

We'll be taking a look at her for 6.11.

can you guys please try something that only hurts her jungle and not her already poor lanning? like try removing the hunt on monsters or reducing the damage she does vs monsters. Honestly jungle nidalee was do able before she even got the hunt changed to working on monsters, sure it wasnt #LCS pro strat but it worked

Mecha MaIphite9 votes

{quoted}

Nidalee is already annoying enough to play against in_ solo queue_

what's that? a new gamemode?

The Deckowner4 votes

Solo queue is gone...item 3070

Slamurai Jack2 votes

Her clear speed needs nerfs. It's absolutely ridiculous that she can do both her buffs and an extra camp to reach 3 and then invade me before I even finish my second buff even if it's my 3rd camp.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

They were already nerfed a couple times bud.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

{quoted}

They were already nerfed a couple times bud.

They clearly weren't nerfed enough because she still has the fastest clear in the game by a significant margin. She's still the second highest winrate jgler in Diamond+ and is still pick or ban in pro play. Gut this fucking champ already Rito.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Maybe learn to play against her then. She's been fine and doesn't need more nerfs. And no, stop asking for her gutting. It won't happen, and also makes you look like a butthurt hater who got his ass kicked.

Slamurai Jack1 votes

We don't play against Nidalee in high elo. We ban her. Frankly, we're tired of Kindred and Nid dominating the jungle for months on end and most of us would be happy to see both of them gutted simply so we can stop banning them all the time. There's a reason High Elo bans those champs at a far, far higher level than all the other elos: their brokeness only truly shines at the level where everyone is good.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

So you are basically saying everyone below you is bad? Wow, not cool.

Maybe Nidalee isn't played enough/people don't do well enough with her in lower elos because of her high skill floor, and because there are other OP champs besides her. I'm quite good with her actually, but prefer her mid lane over jungle, and the more you guys ask for nerfs the more it hits her mid laning, which ticks me off.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure a lot will not be happy with her gutting, especially those that love her as a champion. Maybe you haters need to stop QQing for your elo and look around at how the changes you want will affect the rest of the League community. Because honestly, it's fucking tiring having Riot listen and obey all the high elo people's wants and needs while it completely destroys the lower elos.

The rant over and beside, it's still not cool. Nidalee is FINE. Good Lord.

EDIT: I just looked into the ban rates. In Plat elo, Nid is at a 20% ban rate. Ekko is at FIFTY NINE PERCENT, Kindred in the high 40's. Zed in the 70s. Nid is not the problem in higher elos from what I am seeing.

BluePolarizer1 votes

lolwut? we are in high elo. You aren't. Who are you to tell us what is and what is not a problem in high elo when you haven't even seen it? it'll be like a couch point guard telling NBA players what to do or a high school dropout trying to lecture professors.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Who are you to attack me for my rank? That's mean.

BluePolarizer1 votes

a low elo Nidalee main commenting about the balance status of Nidalee is like a fur coat wearer insisting that cheetahs aren't endangered.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Reported. Get out of here you mean person. Using people's rank to be mean to them is not cool AT ALL.

Slamurai Jack3 votes

{quoted}

So you are basically saying everyone below you is bad? Wow, not cool.

And many of the people above me as well, as well as myself, yes.

Maybe Nidalee isn't played enough/people don't do well enough with her in lower elos because of her high skill floor, and because there are other OP champs besides her. I'm quite good with her actually, but prefer her mid lane over jungle, and the more you guys ask for nerfs the more it hits her mid laning, which ticks me off.

Mid Nidalee has a 40% winrate. Taking her mid lane into consideration when balancing is a waste of time at this point.

Furthermore, I'm pretty sure a lot will not be happy with her gutting, especially those that love her as a champion. Maybe you haters need to stop QQing for your elo and look around at how the changes you want will affect the rest of the League community. Because honestly, it's fucking tiring having Riot listen and obey all the high elo people's wants and needs while it completely destroys the lower elos.

Balancing around high elo is an absolute necessity because it's the one bracket of play where champion strength starts to seriously matter. In lower elo, differences in player skill are what determines games because the skill differences are massive there. You can win matchups you have absolutely no business winning in bronze and silver because people really don't know what they're doing. At that point, player skill trumps champion strength pretty much always. High elo, where everyone knows how to play, is where raw champion strength really starts to matter. There's a reason Diamond winrates range from 56% at the top all the way to 40% at the bottom while winrates only range from 55% to 44% in League as a whole: champion strength simply matters more the higher elo you go.

And regardless, your opinion on Nidalee is irrelevant. Riot themselves have also agreed that she needs looked into and it's quite rare that Riot responds to threads like these. The fact that they chose to do so here indicates that they find Nidalee problematic enough to be willing to give a definitive response here.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Mid Nidalee is a good consideration in my opinion. It's not a waste of time.

Not all low elo players are shit. Some actually know what the fuck they are doing, like me. So yes I think the game should be balanced more as a whole and not just the high elo.

Wow. You attacking me saying my opinion is irrelevant. Well, YOU are an irrelevant person for saying that. And no, it's not because she is a problem. I think its just because all the people who got butt kicked by her are crying out for nerfs is why they are even saying anything.

I'm done with you.

Spica Calibur2 votes

Dude, I peaked plat 2, which is not considered good, and I need to tell you, balancing should be taken into consideration utilizing statistics from Diamond 2+, lower elo should not be taken into account. I consider myself I know A LOT about league, but my skill isnt that good to get to high diamond. I main nidalee ffs lol, the problem with her is that she has INSANE clear speed (probably the fastest in the game), regular ganks, which if you land a spear is a free flash, and the most pressure a jungler can offer in the game. Clear + W spam + Speed in bushes, you can be top, gank, then go bot before the other jungler clears his freaking buff. Besides that, her early game is one of the strongest, and if she gets fed theres no stopping her, not just because shes gonna be a lot of items ahead, but she can probably be 3-4 levels ahead of everyone else (I've done it several times). And people saying she falls off, its true, but she can build bruisery (ROA, abyssal, zhonyas, rylais), go in, kill someone, zhonyas, have your rotation back, kill someone else, get back, heal, and go in again, and also, her heals are INSANE mid-late game, heals more than Soraka. I love nidalee, and trust me I wish they wouldnt nerf her, but she SCREAMS for a nerf dude, she just has too much in her kit that is prone to abuse other players easily. The thing is, in lower elo people cant use her as efficiently as in higher elo, and also, most people dont know jack about the game. I see people crying and complaining about ''why didnt you ban Yi/Darius, etc.. So yea, to sum it up, lower elo should NOT be taken into account to balance a champion. And im not even high elo.

SnugglePuggle941 votes

I know how she clears. I know her playstyle. I know that people build her damage or bruiser. SHE'S ALREADY BEEN NERFED twice this season for her jungler clears! Good God she doesn't need nerfed again.

I use her effectively, and I'm in a lower elo.

And yes, our elo should be taken into consideration in balance even if they don't choose to change anything.

What ticks me off is all these mean people are attacking me for my rank and think my thoughts are irrelevant just because I'm bronze but completely don't take into account that I play her well and am not complete shit like others in my rank.

Nb3isD5player2 votes

another bronze ranked league player calling himself "i'm better than what my elo tells me I am"

SnugglePuggle941 votes

Oh look, another high elo player spitting on someone lower than himself. Get out of here.

Caítlyn2 votes

Why are people always complaining about her? She has no cc, squishy as Sona and does pitiful damage if you step 2 inches to the right and dodge her spear (which has already been nerfed to shreds)

Nb3isD5player2 votes

I mean, Nidalee just needs dmg reduction vs monsters like other champions. like how we lessened the dmg on jungle monsters for leesin, elise and others. if that happens, nidalee jungle speed is going to be reduced and everyone will be happy, nidalee isn't suffering enough from the early jungler problems like others, her sustain/clear speed is better than udyr at his prime.

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