Boards Hypocrisy: Support Singed

Meep Man··39 votes·2,423 views

I get tagged as AFK by the game as Teemo for trying to cheese some early kills with my Passive and no one on the Boards blinks an eye or cares. But a Support Singed gets banned for refusing to communicate with his teammates and then claims he was banned for being out of the meta and

http://reaction.club/r/hqg-418.gif

Seriously guys, it's just another person trying to justify what they did wrong. He didn't communicate with his team and, if what I am hearing is correct, he stole jungle camps from his Jungle. Move on.

91 Comments

CerealBoxOfDoom10 votes

support singed is a idea support teemo is a bad person

Meep Man4 votes

AFK Farming as MasterYi Jax XinZhao Shyvana Warwick is going to hurt your team Support Singed stealing camps from your Jungler is ok as long as it wins

trash sion6 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Toast Lord,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h5EuPmwM,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-11-15T13:43:32.553+0000)

He didn't communicate with his team and, if what I am hearing is correct, he stole jungle camps from his Jungle. Move on.

I mean, he does copy-paste a paragraph in draft to explain his intentions. What Riot meant in the ticket by "refusing to communicate" is when his team would tell him NOT to play Singed and he would do it anyway. We don't all need to do what our teammates say or risk being banned, or we'd be playing the shittiest game of all time. Imagine if your team didn't like the meta champion you wanted to play, and you had to conform to their desires or risk being banned...

...and stealing jungle camps? What is it my midlane does to my raptors and blue (without asking)? ...or my botlane taking my red and krugs? Should I be reporting my team every game if they take a camp, just like they should report me if I take a few minions when I come through their lane? No. He's playing a position where the only gold income is the Relic Shield he picks up after his first few camps. If he can't find an opening to take enemy camps, who gives a fuck if he grabs raptors or something?

Meep Man6 votes

Ok, but that isn't the Support's job. If you roll up into the Support role and go and farm from the Jungle while your ADC is alone, that's not what you signed up for. Jungle camps have a ton of value now and a Jungler is severely hurt when a camp is taken from him due to the 150 second respawn timers. If your ADC steals Krugs once, whatever. If your Middle Lane takes Blue, tell them not to. If they do it once then whatever. However, if they keep stealing camps and keep doing what I have specifically told them not to without responding, then yes, I am going to report them.

I mean, he does copy-paste a paragraph in draft to explain his intentions. What Riot meant in the ticket by "refusing to communicate" is when his team would tell him NOT to play Singed and he would do it anyway. We don't all need to do what our teammates say or risk being banned, or we'd be playing the shittiest game of all time. Imagine if your team didn't like the meta champion you wanted to play, and you had to conform to their desires or risk being banned...

"I'm gonna make this game unfun for other people, but it's ok because I warned them about it." And no, I'm PRETTY sure by refusing to communicate I think they meant when he pasted the paragraph and then refused to communicate.

Aptest5 votes

oh, the number of ADCs that went into a fit of rage when I helped them fight and got a kill.... ...or when i took a CS they would have anyway missed...

and now you're gonna tell me that im facing a ban for "KSing the ADC" too many times? or for playing Bard a champion who's entire point is to not be botlane's babysitter?

Once you start with the "making the game unfun for other people" slope, it's a downhill slope ending with "play my pick, the way I want it to be played, mon petite esclave"

OK sure. no more top lane Yasuo (= report, not communicating with team, making my game miserable). no more Vaynes (= report, not communicating with team, making my game miserable). You've gotta roam if you're playing mid (= report, not communicating with team, making my game miserable) and mr jungler, blue buff is MINE (= report, not communicating with team, making my game miserable).

All the guys against this shit ban agree - this is a slope. Everybody wants to experiment here and there and nobody wants the other guy to do it. That's just how it is but if you want the freedom to play the game differently on a fancy, you'd best defend other's right to do the same.

Being upset because you're playing double jungler once in a blue moon is the action that makes the game un-fun for everyone. Being the double jungler is the legitimate fine action. The rage, regardless of how common, is unwarranted and unjust.

Meep Man2 votes

You can do all that stuff, just be sure to communicate with your team! You could pick a meta pick and then refuse to communicate and still get banned. Just posting a copy-paste paragraph isn't communicating. If the ADC rages at you and you are communicating with them and playing the game BUT got a kill by accident (I would assume it is accident), then sure, report them for being toxic. However, if you REPEATEDLY (thats the big thing right there) do it and don't say a word, that sounds like a troll doesn't it. If you are Support Singed and act like a Top Singed and steal CS, kills, and monster camps from your team and then refuse to communicate, expect to be reported because you really appear to be a troll.

Aptest3 votes

sure.

I communicate with my team. they tell me: no, or we report.

my next action? don't make me laugh.

Meep Man3 votes

If you can find a game where someone communicated with their team, their team refused to let them play the champion they wanted to play, they played it anyways AND COMMUNICATED, then got banned AND the game was post-Tribunal era (god) then I will change my mind entirely.

Aptest2 votes

How much written communication actually happens normally after champ select?

not a whole lot.

I don't accept your assertion. normal people don't communicate a lot during a game.

Meep Man2 votes

Ok, but what about when their lack of communication becomes an issue in-game? Sure, if no one talks in-game, you can't ban them all for lack of communication. HOWEVER, if communication is happening and your team repeatedly tries to communicate with you and you refuse to communicate, then you will be banned.

Plus, in my own games, a LOT of communication happens post-champion select.

Aptest1 votes

A little thought experiment: What do YOU think the team is actually telling him?

Is it more or less "get cancer you noob troller stop AFKing in jungle and go help YOUR ADC, report report report"?

Meep Man2 votes

I doubt it started like that, but it might have descended into that simply because he didn't say a word. Probably started as "Please don't play Singed Support."

Then he got into the game and they were like "Whatever, gotta deal with this guy. See how it goes." Then after he stole Jungle CS and such without saying a word, it probably descended into chaos.

Aptest1 votes

Probably happened the way you describe it. but, assuming he had this long text already copy pasted in champ select explaining the whole deal,

What is left for him to say? sorry, need krugs?

Meep Man2 votes

Yes, explain why you need Krugs more than the Jungler instead of saying nothing

Aptest2 votes

To summarize:

if he, in champ select, says: "while we are loading here is a mobafire guide of what i am going to do and where i intend to be and what camps i need to take, read it while we load up"...

...than he's basically A ok yes?

Meep Man2 votes

That's a very grey area where you force someone else to read a guide just to understand what you are doing when you yourself could summarize in game. Thats more just really lazy. It would be best if you explained your actions as you did them in-game.

Aptest2 votes

yeah but who has the capacity to type walls of text in game while they need their keyboards to play with?

how much play by play do you require? at some point it becomes absurd.

Meep Man2 votes

Ex.:

"Hey Jungle, I need to get Krugs for "X Reason" so that I can do "Y Event"."

Simply saying what you are doing when you are doing something out of the ordinary helps teams a lot and should be expected if you are playing something so incredibly different as Singed Support (in the way he played it).

Elikain2 votes

So by that logic, if someone is about to break the law and he says openly to the authorities what he's about to do, it makes it OK?

Let's be clear here, i'm not equating playing off-meta to breaking the law but every role has guidelines that define it. This guy broke every guideline on the Support role and that isn't just Singed related. It was support Singed + Smite + duo jungling in solo environment + counter-jungling as a support + no Sightstone. The obvious things people already said he did. Doesn't matter if he was winning his games or not, the ends don't justify the means.

He queued up as a support and yet, he didn't do anything a support should be doing. He played like he wanted to play and his teammates, in any of his games, were not having it. The way he was announcing what he was about to do, does not excuse his behavior. He didn't want to discuss anything, he wasn't being cooperative with his team. It was common courtesy to tell them what he's about to do but he was the only one who made a decision. His team didn't have a say in this. They could either dodqe the queue and get penalized or play the game and see how it plays out. Both situations feel like cases of negative behavior.

Aptest3 votes

Let's be clear here, i'm not equating playing off-meta to breaking the law

Lets be clear here. you are equating playing off meta to breaking the common law in league. the TL;DR of your argument is: your team wants you to play X, you play X. you can "discuss" with them but they get to vote on it and you have to comply.

Lets be clear here. The guy wanted to play double jungle - not support. He queued to play double jungle - not support. The only "button" that allows double jungle to be realized has "support" text on it, therefore support must also mean any other style of play with non traditional lane assignments.

as for discussion. There is not enough common ground between his position and his team. Your view of "discussion" is complying with the team's demand and never playing double jungle ever. There is nothing to discuss and therefore any argument that discussion must occur is irrelevant. Either he is allowed to play a different style of game, or he is not, and in my view the idea that he is not is toxic.

Essentially, you are saying that 4 men are allowed to be just as toxic as 1, as long as they are in the majority.

As for him. There is no negative behavior on his part here - not at all. what exists is a whole lot of special snowflakes pretending that playing the game in a way that makes them put in some extra effort and maybe also stealing their thunder (oh, im the ADC, i need to be cottonballed so i can be strong and carry, oh, im the jungler, im supposed to do all the CJ stuff now i cant CJ because of singed and i can't gank either because botlane is 1v2), is an act of aggression and negativity.

whereas the reality is that they choose to be negative. And they pretend he is aggressive towards them.

Elikain3 votes

Firstly, I'm not equating breaking the law to playing off-meta in League, i'm making a comparison between the two situations.

Secondly, I don't really care if this guy wanted to play double jungle. You can ONLY play double jungle if:

  1. Your teammate agrees with your strategy (solo)
  2. You're playing with a friend that is in the jungle and he lets you do it

He played solo so the second option is out of the way. And the first one is also invalid as his jungling teammate did not agree with his strategy. So he asserted himself forcefully into his own teammate's lane, took exp and gold for him, definitely setting his teammate behind for his own benefit. He didn't communicate anything, He copy-pasted a template he prepared before the game about the strategy he will be using because he didn't want to communicate.

He obviously didn't want to support and he didn't even plan to. If he had this thing in mind, no matter which lane he got, he'd have probably done the same thing. So he probably didn't pick his positions at all, he chose Fill. I have no love or respect for this guy. This behavior is constituted as being netagive and he was being disruptive in multiple games. Otherwise, the reports wouldn't have triggered Riot to do a manual audit of his case and reach the same conclusion. The thing that got him suspended isn't his "masterful, decent w/l ratio" support Singed, it's the strategy he decided to employ, that was at the expense of his own teammates which became a routine.

If he made a decision about a strategy he will be using but it only affected how he plays his own lane, without stepping over someone from his team (like a proxy Singed that is literally running around laps around the enemy base), this would have been an entirely different matter.

Aptest2 votes

{quoted}

Secondly, I don't really care if this guy wanted to play double jungle. You can ONLY play double jungle if:

  1. Your teammate agrees with your strategy (solo)
  2. You're playing with a friend that is in the jungle and he lets you do it

With respect to this topic: what is right is my opinion and what is wrong is your opinion. the right thing is to disregard yours and accept mine.

He didn't communicate anything, He copy-pasted a template he prepared before the game about the strategy he will be using because he didn't want to communicate.

how does that even compute? He takes great effort to explain and you say that everything he writes is evidence of his lack of desire to communicate?

that idea is at odds with itself. completely ludicrous. Your logic is twisted here.

This behavior is constituted as being netagive and he was being disruptive in multiple games.

I do not believe this guy has been negative towards his team mates. His team mates don't like his actions so they pretend he is doing something to them. Whereas they choose to be offended over something that is legitimate.

Otherwise, the reports wouldn't have triggered Riot to do a manual audit of his case and reach the same conclusion.

So far, I have not concluded that the conclusion of riot has been justified. I can assume they had someone of your opinion do the audit, and thus my assumption is that the conclusion is the result of erroneous prejudice.

Elikain1 votes

I think you're under the impression that it's impossible for a person to be negative if he doesn't speak. Your actions are more than capable of conveying the negativity or your disinterest in a topic or in this case, what role you've been assigned to play as.

Secondly, copy-pasting a prepared sentence into the chat isn't communication. If he's repeating this, it's a process that saves him time from actually communicating with his teammates or having to bother explaining further. So he shuts down all channels of communications between himself and his teammates, after the courteous warning.

In a sense, his message to his teammates was: "This is what i'm doing and you have no say in this matter. Take it or leave it, your choice entirely". This is obviously a way to successful communication, is it not?

Also, refer to this post from Wuks (who is an Arbiter): http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/player-behavior-moderation/79aGu3wR-support-singed-isnt-banable-but-thats-not-the-point

Aptest1 votes

I think you're under the impression that it's impossible for a person to be negative if he doesn't speak.

I think that you are under the impression that disagreeing with your team mates - specifically when you know in advance that there is going to be a disagreement - is being negative.

I think you are under the impression that not playing the game in the way your team mate expect you to is being negative.

Like I replied to Wuk. Here we have an edge case where no agreement can be reached. And if no agreement can be reached, you can't consider non-compliance as being awful towards team.

Secondly, copy-pasting a prepared sentence into the chat isn't communication.

ofcourse it is. We don't know how much he talks after that, if at all. It is quite probable that after game starts the team goes all "noob support report report report get cancer" on him and in that case I do not fault him at all for just not talking anymore.

In a sense, his message to his teammates was:

We both know what his team mates are telling him on champ select. "Pls no sup singed", and "singed exh" i think are the choice lines.

I think you are under the impression that communication and compliance are the same thing which they are not. and in any case you are under the impression that compliance is mandatory which is absolutely bullshit.

Also, refer to this post from Wuks

Wuk who is wrong agrees with you ergo you are right? LOLNO.

Elikain1 votes

Your problem comes from the fact that you still believe he's reported because he didn't do what his team told him to do. His team didn't pressure him into anything or demanded that he plays something that suited their needs. He has a choice to pick a champion he wants but what he doesn't have a full choice with is to play the role he was assigned how he wants to play it, especially when that meant literally doing the exact opposite of what his role should be doing.

There are no supports who duo jungle and he isn't making up a new meta. I don't really care how you personally feel about his case, the bottom line is that he displayed negative behavior in the same fashion multiple times, which led to his two week suspension.

Copy-pasting things into the chat isn't communication. He didn't have multiple responses ready, he had only one, to cut himself the time from having to constantly tell people what his strategy is. And he didn't explain anything, he just told people that he's going to do it. He left it up to his team to adjust on their own or die trying. That's what was not being communicated at all. His choice of a support had nothing to do with his ban nor his teammates not being happy with his choice. His choice of a strategy that he didn't explain is the problem here. He also didn't do his job as a support and his strategy was executed on the expense of his teammates' gameplay.

Considering that Wuks is an arbiter, that's why i pointed you to his thread. Not because he agrees with me. I sent you to someone who is "higher up" than us players. But we all know that even if Rioter came and explained the situation, you wouldn't have cared. Because what you love the most is to go against the grain because of your own convictions while this game works as it works because there are rules of conduct. You can't blatantly ignore them or choose to ignore them in specific cases and then justify breaking the rules with "well it worked, didn't it" excuse.

Not every action in this game that doesn't follow the meta is considered off-meta. Because then i can also say that being AFK is off-meta, disrupting gameplay by invading my teammates' lane is off-meta, even if these actions are a clear violation of the Summoner's Code.

Aptest1 votes

Your problem comes from the fact that you still believe he's reported because he didn't do what his team told him to do.

He was reported because he did not comply with what the team wanted the support role to mean. He was reported for playing a style of play that was not acceptable by the other team.

His team didn't pressure him into anything or demanded that he plays something that suited their needs.

of course they did, we have their reports as proof.

but what he doesn't have a full choice with is to play the role he was assigned how he wants to play it, especially when that meant literally doing the exact opposite of what his role should be doing.

Who decides what the "support role should be doing"? You are acting with the idea that RIOT should determine this, or otherwise "the team" should determine this. In your view the function of the 5th player and his contribution is dictated to the 5th player by "the authorities".

What support should be doing, what the role of support is bringing to the game, the style of game-play that is used, the champions and summoner spells selected, the lane assignment and the supported player, if any, should ALL be ultimately determined by the support player. The team should be allowed to expect, and to ask, and to discuss... but NOT to coerce.

Like I said in my reply to Wuks. This is an edge case where there is no possible compromise. What you think is reasonable is that RIOT writes a play by play definition of how everybody should play, and then enforce it. Which is B.S.

There are no supports who duo jungle

Just like with the support MF case, There apparently is at least one. And soon, there will be more.

The bottom line is that his behavior was in no way negative. Despite that, it led to his two week, UNJUST suspension.

Copy-pasting things into the chat isn't communication.

You seem to not understand what communication is. Communication is not to run a Q&A session every game. It is to pass the necessary and useful information. Which is did. That is fact.

Considering most of us only say 2-3 words to the team in most cases, as far as I am concerned he has gone above and beyond.

this game works as it works because there are rules of conduct

There seems to have been an invisible and deplorable shift in what those rules of conduct are. I have played for years using the old, good version of the rules. As you can see by my Avatar.

The rules of conduct used to mean, you play the game. You try to reach a consensus on how to play but at the end of the game you as a player have the authority to determine how a role is played and what the responsibilities of the role are.

Now we are presented with a different, and much more toxic and negative set of rules: it is determined what the role of support are, by someone else, and that determination is enforced by a combination of people who are not you who agree among themselves what your role should be, and "the establishment" who which supports them with bans.

And while the summoner code clearly states that players must permit differing play styles and that the game should be played in the spirit of cooperation, the "Banning body" clearly twists it into a pretzel to appear legitimate in throwing innovative divergent players under the bus.

Not every action in this game that doesn't follow the meta is considered off-meta. Because then i can also say that being AFK is off-meta, disrupting gameplay by invading my teammates' lane is off-meta, even if these actions are a clear violation of the Summoner's Code.

not all of these actions are against the summoner's code. Invading your team mate's lane is LEGITIMATE.

Because what you love the most is to go against the grain because of your own convictions

My conviction is that people should be able to play this game in a variety of ways and have fun. Also, that one player does not get to coerce a style of play over another player, and failing that, argue that the other player is "ruining the fun for other people" though lack of compliance.

Elikain1 votes

He got reported because he was being an atheist who tried to prove the God doesn't exist in a church and didn't want to leave. People just didn't want to hear what he had to say or do and have showed him that he isn't welcome in that environment. He chose to ignore it and continue what he was doing and the authorities have been called to deal with the situation. But his explanation was "i wasn't being violent". Yes, he was. He was trying to force his opinions onto a group of people who weren't open to it.

Under the Summoner's Code, you're not obligated to foster the different playstyles. The EU meta existed for years (1 top (pref. tank), 1 mid (pref. mage), 1 jungler, 2 bot (pref. supp and marksman). So if a guy came rolling in solo queue environment and has decided that he should be supporting top or mid instead of bot (his team clearly not being up for that) but still tried to win, he has every right to disrupt the game like this? #No, he does not.

The majority may be wrong but they have the rights of a group to continue believing in what they want, without an outsider telling them otherwise. Which means that no player has the right to force anyone to think and do like they do.

His strategies are only wrong if he is forcing them on others. So the obvious solution here is not to play like this with random people but to make his own team that is open to his playstyle and preferably, play like him as well. He can even create a club of people like him so he'd always have people to play with. I don't see why his playstyle can't exist in League if his teammates are accepting of it but does not have the right to force his playstyle onto someone.

Just like with the support MF case, There apparently is at least one. And soon, there will be more. The bottom line is that his behavior was in no way negative. Despite that, it led to his two week, UNJUST suspension.

No, support MF only works in very specific cases (with specific champions and against specific supports). Which means that even if pros showcased it, it's still not a widely accepted support pick and if you're forcing it in every situation, you would be reported in those games.

Who decides what the "support role should be doing"?

The EU meta that existed for years and still hasn't changed "defines" guidelines on what each role should be doing. Every role has expectations and if you're not fulfilling those expectations, your team considers you as dead weight.

You can tell me all you want how this isn't fair but it is how it works. You, as a minority, don't have the right to impose yourselves by force into the majority and demand your rules to be accepted and applied. If you're not welcome in that environment, you then create your own.

You seem to not understand what communication is. Communication is not to run a Q&A session every game. It is to pass the necessary and useful information. Which is did. That is fact.

##WookieeCookie said exactly what i wanted to say, but i didn't know how to express it myself.

{quoted}

Communication is def key here. But keep in mind that there is a difference between communicating AT someone vs communicating WITH someone. In many games I reviewed you would inform your team mates of what your plan was but you failed to adapt to what was being said by your team mates in response.

You can craft an innovative strategy but half of any plan to win a match of League will involve your teammates. If the team isn’t able to adopt the strategy at hand needs your help to recover the pressure falls on you to evolve your tactics and support them.

This sounds exactly like this SInged guy. Singed was communicating AT his team. He didn't communicate well WITH his team. Copy-pasting a message in the chat is communicating AT his team while he didn't really care what they had to say about his strategy. Again, it was just a small act of courtesy.

Him: "Hey guys, i'm doing this". Team: "Hey, don't do it man, we're not ready". Him: [ignores the response and opposition]

Invading your team mate's lane is LEGITIMATE.

Forceful invasion of your teammate's lane is not legitimate. If your teammate asks you to leave his lane (if you're not designated by your role to his lane), then you have to comply.

There seems to have been an invisible and deplorable shift in what those rules of conduct are. I have played for years using the old, good version of the rules.

Maybe that's the case. But you alone don't have the right to force a change to happen. The majority needs naturally to shift, you can't have aggressors in that community forcing their opinions and playstyles on everyone else. That makes people shut down and revert back to the old system and the change you're trying to see gets delayed more and more.

Also, that one player does not get to coerce a style of play over another player, and failing that, argue that the other player is "ruining the fun for other people" though lack of compliance.

If you don't comply to the rules of the majority, you're not welcome in that community. You can be kicked out. So you either adjust your attitude or you make your own place where people like you are welcome.

Aptest1 votes

he was being an atheist who tried to prove the God doesn't exist in a church

exempt it was not a church it was hyde park and the guys he was trying to convert were just random people who had no more right to the park than he did, but they went about and put ribbons around his bench and declared it into a church and when they called the police they lied about "them being there first" and told the police the church has been there for 10 years when in reality it was there for about 30 seconds and in any way was an illegally appropriated public space.

He was trying to force his opinions onto a group of people who weren't open to it.

And they were trying to force theirs on him.

Under the Summoner's Code, you're not obligated to foster the different playstyles.... he has every right to disrupt the game like this?

His game to disrupt. So yes. The other players are not required to agree to his play style, but in any place where disagreement also means forcing their play style on him, they are not allowed to take coercive action - which they did, in direct violation of the reporting section of the code.

So the obvious solution here is not to play like this

You seem to believe that coercion here only works from Skyhart to his allies, and not both ways. That he is the coercive member, whereas the 4 slavers on his team are being led like lambs to the slaughter.

4 randoms do not have any rights over a 5th random. 4 randoms do not constitute any group that have its own, additional rights, and in any case no player or group of players have any kind of "right to the meta", regardless of how established it is.

if you're forcing it in every situation, you would be reported in those games.

and each of those reports would be a jerk move done by a jerk who should have his reporting privileges revoked and the report thrown to the trash.

You, as a minority, don't have the right to impose yourselves by force into the majority and demand your rules to be accepted and applied. If you're not welcome in that environment, you then create your own.

I do not force myself onto anybody. I will take my freedom to do my own thing and if other people have to adapt well that's on them its not me forcing them to do anything. You may miss-construed such a course of action as "coercion", but it is really not. the other way is simply me being everyone's bitch because they wanted it and "it is the meta".

And as for rules. I do demand the environment to be open for everybody to do their own thing. And if you argue otherwise, I will argue against you. A "safe space for expression" means people have to suck it up a bit. Deal with it.

Forceful invasion of your teammate's lane is not legitimate. If your teammate asks you to leave his lane (if you're not designated by your role to his lane), then you have to comply.

My team's lane is not my team's house. I own it, equally with him. It is not an invasion as it is using my own property.

If you don't comply to the rules of the majority, you're not welcome in that community. You can be kicked out. So you either adjust your attitude or you make your own place where people like you are welcome.

Ok. I make this place and this community into a place where people like Skyhart are welcome. you go yourself and find yourself some other place.

trash sion1 votes

"Secondly, I don't really care if this guy wanted to play double jungle. You can ONLY play double jungle if:

Your teammate agrees with your strategy (solo) You're playing with a friend that is in the jungle and he lets you do it"

I'm confused. Does my midlaner have to ask me if he can mid when I'm top, and if I say no, he's not allowed? Why is it any different for support?

Take notice; every other role selection has a lane applied to it. Top is top, Mid is mid, Bot is bot, Jungle is jungle. Those are locations that correspond to roles. That isn't to say that they have a specific role to fill, only gives them a location.

"Support" does not correspond to "ADC's bitch in botlane." Support is a role, not a location. It would be like queueing for Mage, Marksman, or Tank. If he's supporting his team, does it matter what his playstyle is? He's increasing his team's odds of a win. End of story.

Elikain1 votes

What are you even talking about?

Does my midlaner have to ask me if he can mid when I'm top, and if I say no, he's not allowed?

Why does your teammate need to ask you for permission to go on his designated lane and play a role he got, when you're playing a different role and on a different lane? Nowhere in my comments have i ever said Singed needed a permission from any of his teammates to play his own lane. The problem was that he had decided to play as a support and didn't even support his team in multiple games. Then he invaded his jungler's "lane" and took from him because that's what supports usually do, right?

This player played with a strategy that invalidated one of his teammates' contribution in the game, from a position that shouldn't even be involved in someone else's business unless the lane needs help to relieve the pressure.

trash sion1 votes

He does Support. He is playing his role. It's just in a different way than you're used to because it isn't a common pick. If Proxy Singed Top was played by only one person, people would throw just as much of a fit. Riot made the champion, he's making use of it.

Elikain1 votes

No, Proxy Singed is a strategy that i don't personally like but it's a strategy that involves one lane only and isn't being executed at the expense of my Marksman or the Jungler. So, i don't have to agree or like this strategy in particular but that doesn't give me a valid reason to report someone, just because i don't like it.

What does give me a valid reason to report someone is if the strategy the person chooses goes against the overall strategy of his team. Since he's playing with 4 other people and he's only one person, he doesn't get to do what he wants to do when it's diminishing his team's chances of winning the game because he himself is impacting other lanes by intentionally putting them at a disadvantage.

He doesn't support. He may play the role of a support but he doesn't play a support or does things that any support does. His choice of a support already makes him a worse lane partner but even in these cases, it could work. His strategy + his pick is what cemented him as a negative player. He duo jungled in games where his jungling teammate didn't want to share. His jungler has the right to say no to his duo jungle strategy, which Singed didn't respect. He also left his Marksman 1v2 in cases where he duo jungled and no, he wasn't roaming. Roaming is when you leave your lane in an appropriate time to do something valuable in the other lane or ward. Not when you take a break from laning to go ahead and steal your own jungler's camps.

trash sion1 votes

Again, I have a feeling that you're making assumptions based on what you've read. Guarantee you haven't spectated any games, because he does none of what you're saying. The only way he plays differently from a normal Support is that he starts the game by invading the enemy jungle. It's not like he's following his jungler around stealing camps. Only after laning phase is when he begins to splitpush and take the occasional allied or enemy jungle camp, which your other laners do anyway; there's no reason why he can't do it too.

Do your research before you try to argue for the permanent banning of someone who just wants to have fun playing League.

Elikain1 votes

You must have some reading comprehension problems because i never mentioned permanently banning the guy. I only said and stated that his two week suspension is justified.

If he continues his routine that got him suspended in the first place, he's definitely getting banned permanently. His problem is that he isn't telling his team what he's doing, if the strategy he's employing isn't well known. That leads to his entire team feeling like he plays against them or trolling. And if 4 out of 5 people complain about his strategy in multiple games and you're still on his side, you're implying that all of those people are wrong.

So either you're implying there's some conspiracy going on here to remove a player who's just playing off-meta picks in incompatible roles (and Riot is also involved) or he's actually guilty. The more assumptions you make to approve his actions, the more ridiculous your case is. The simplest solution is usually the correct one.

trash sion1 votes

I'm not making any assumptions? I'm spectating his games and giving you the facts about how he plays. You can see in replays that he pings often about where he's going, which Riot has stated is enough to constitute communication with your team.

...and yes, I am arguing that the 4 people reporting him are wrong. There are people out there who hate a certain champion on their team all the time. Just because I don't want a Yasuo on my team because I'm afraid he'll be bad doesn't justify a ban. This is that exact same effect on a larger scale, just that multiple team members are afraid he'll be bad because they haven't seen it before. If he wins, that's fine and people don't report him. But when he loses, which he's bound to as a LoL player, people use the fact that he's playing an off-meta role to blame the loss solely on him. In their minds, because they lost and the Singed Support is on their team, they must correlate which simply isn't true.

Aptest1 votes

you're implying that all of those people are wrong.

yes.

And we're not implying it. We're saying it in the open.

trash sion2 votes

This is your problem. You're under the assumption that a support HAS set responsibilites, and that there even has to be a support at all. Singed is still supporting his team, by pressuring the enemy jungler and all lanes, as well as performing the normal supportive things botlane. There is absolutely no ruling by Riot that requires that you conform to a player-enforced role system. He didn't break a rule, he broke a norm. It's a common thing in League, sorry.

Elikain1 votes

I am a support main and i know what my responsibilities are. Every role has responsibilities. What i expect from a player who supports me is no less than what i expect from myself, when i support someone else. This Singed player occupied the support position and he absolutely did not play a support nor in any way minimally contributed to a game as a support would do.

What i expect from an Marksman is to deal damage, not to sit back and support someone else. What i expect from a Mage is to be the burst damage our team needs, which is their forte. What i expect from an Assassin is to assassinate priority targets, not sleep behind our lines or attack tanks. These expectations aren't my convictions on how i personally define the roles. Each role has an expectation tied to it which is how you know of what each champion is capable of, even if you don't know exactly what their kit does.

This Singed player broke the norm but he also broke the Summoner's Code when he decided to play the game on his team's expense. That is what got him punished, not his freedom to choose a champion he wanted and play him on a position that isn't in the meta. But you seem to believe that his choice of a champion is what rubbed his team the wrong way and have completely decided to ignore his other actions that were clearly going against his team's chances of winning.

trash sion1 votes

You're wrong. You're comparing an ADC playing like a tank to a Support who is just supporting in a different fashion. He isn't taking on a carry role, he's pressuring the enemy team in unexpected ways and creating opportunities around the map to snowball his team, as well as supporting his ADC botlane. He's one of the few Singed support players, so he really does determine how Singed is played as a support. It's like comparing a Singed Top to any other Top laner. The playstyle is vastly different, but because it has a larger playerbase all on the same page, Singed Top is okay? What?

Elikain1 votes

he's pressuring the enemy team in unexpected ways and creating opportunities around the map to snowball his team, as well as supporting his ADC botlane.

Sabotaging his own team = disrupting the enemy team? Are you even serious right now? I don't think you understand what he actually did that got him suspended.

He employed a "duo jungle" strategy from a support position that requires that at least his jungler cooperation. His jungler didn't approve of the strategy nor did his Marksman (who didn't want to 1v2) but the Singed still did it. This isn't called roaming either. He intentionally disrupted two of his lanes for his own benefit, therefore he was negative. This overall strategy is a legitimate one but since no one in his team was willing to try it, he had no business in trying to force it down his team's throat. He didn't explain the strategy either, he simply said he was going to do it and that was the end of his communication with his team.

If i played a Marksman in any given game and any one of my teammates came to set up shop in my lane and take my CS (that i am entitled to because i am a bottom lane carry and i have a designated lane where i can collect the income from), it would be a disruption of my gameplay. Especially when i didn't agree with this strategy and i don't approve of it either. It's severely reducing the team's chances of victory.

None of my teammates cannot take my role away in the middle of the game because they feel like it. Because if the individual is ultimately putting his own benefit in front oh his team's benefit, the overall team experience is a negative one even if you manage to take that win. League isn't an environment where you are allowed to play in a team but ultimately, not give a shit if your team gets screwed by your own plans. This behavior breaks the Summoner's Code and it's punishable, no matter if you have a swell personality or not.

trash sion1 votes

You're acting as if he's just jungling with his jungler. Have you spectated any games? He barely touches allied camps. He starts by counterjungling an enemy buff, then recalls and goes botlane for the entire remainder of laning phase. Only after laning when he's splitpushing does he take more jungle camps (generally speaking)

You're making the assumption that he never goes to lane and just farms the allied jungle, which is simply not true.

Elikain1 votes

And he has to leave his lane to counter-jungle, from a support position. His Marksman doesn't have a laning partner once he's doing his routine, he has to concede the minions and he easily gets zoned out by smarter people and he loses exp and level advantage. If he isn't that smart, he donates a kill and then things to downhill from the first minute. Once he gets back (assuming Singed was even successful at stealing the buffs and doesn't die in the process), he's in a lane, useless with a Marksman who's already behind. Then he repeats the process.

It's not his job as a support to counter-jungle. It's his job to support his Marksman. Singed is already bad at supporting people, he's a pretty selfish champion. And this guy is going level above and employing a strategy that further sets his teammate behind. This isn't off-meta, this opposite of a meta. He isn't playing a role that has the luxury to do this. Even a jungler has to find a good timing and escape without getting caught.

I'd still find this guy guilty if he suddenly decided that his Marksman didn't need a support but that his top laner might, so he decided to switch things up a bit and see what comes of it. I'd still find him guilty if he decided to replace their mid laner from a support position (unless he needs to hold a lane if they have an AFK). Anything that you do that's outside your role and it directly influences the efficacy of your primary role is considered disruptive towards your team. If he picked a jungle Singed and went counter-jungling, that's his problem if it backfired, not also a problem of one of his laners that doesn't have a support from time to time.

trash sion1 votes

He doesn't leave his lane to counter jungle blindly. It's either before the laning actually starts, or when he sees and opening. If that opening happens to not be such a great one, it still isn't bannable. That would be like reporting your Malphite for making a questionable ulti. Just because he's playing offmeta doesn't mean he has to play perfectly.

You're also stating that he's putting his ADC behind while making himself useless as well? By that math, you're calling it a 3v5. Even if it were just the pick being useless and his ADC still managed to climb out of the hole from lane, his Singed winrate should still be much lower than 50%, likely even closer to 40%. You can't argue he's been carried for 54% of his 2500 games, the math just doesn't work that way. It may not be the way YOU like to see the position played, but it's not your job to call the shots. If he can win games, then why does there HAVE to be a Support? He's proven that his strategy works just as well, if not BETTER than the average laning setup, so I really don't see the problem. It doesn't matter that you don't like the pick if he still wins games.

Elikain1 votes

It doesn't matter if his strategy is working. The bottom line is that the most of the teams he's playing with aren't receptive of it. They just don't want to play with him. 80% of his teammates don't want to deal with him and his experiment and he himself (only 20%) forces the rest to take part in it.

The surrender system works in the same fashion. 3-2 is not going to trigger a surrender but a 4-1 is. The overwhelming majority has spoken and the game ends right then and there. An yet in this 1-4 situation, he wins the argument by force. This isn't correct.

He isn't the one leaving the queue, he either causes a dodge from someone else's side (one of his teammates gets penalized for that and he avoids the punishment) or the game continues because no one wants to leave and he's the focal point of all the frustrations and negativity that stems from that particular game.

So why do you think he gets a pass if he wins the game but that win came with a lot of frustration and negativity from his team's side? Seriously, people have a basic right to not be subjected to negativity and frustration. And this guy's causing it, in a "non toxic" way.

He can make his own team of people who agree with his strategy or think like him and play similarly. He can also make his own club of meta-breaking, mind-bending people of the same caliber and he can exclusively play with them. If his team accepts his way of playing the game and he's trying to win without causing frustration, then i don't see a reason why this guy needs to be banned or removed from League's community. Which means that he cannot play like this in solo queue because people just don't want to roll with it. And he has no right to make them roll with it either.

It doesn't matter that you don't like the pick if he still wins games.

#Yes, it does matter.

If the overwhelming majority says you can't do it, then you can't do it. You don't have the right to make a decision that impacts the entire team. If your team isn't having it and this happens again and again, whatever it is that you're doing is not being accepted as the right way of playing the game. Which means that in a solo queue environment, you're not going to be allowed to play like this.

Your only choice in this matter is to shape up and throw away your own "unique" style of play OR make a team of NOT RANDOM teammates that approve of your playstyle. Solo queue is just not the type of a place where you can run your experiments. No one wants to be a guinea pig.

trash sion1 votes

So, bottom line, you're arguing that if his teammates don't like the strategy, he can't play it?

If my team collectively decides that we don't want to play with a Yasuo and someone picks Yasuo, you'd argue he should be banned then? I mean, it's ruining 80% of the team's experience. Your logic is flawed, the fact that it's an offmeta pick shouldn't allow your logic to have an exception.

MaskedHeroman3 votes

So what about Bard? If hes playing for chimes the ADC is alone for a large majority of the laning phase. So how is singed going to get a camp different? Again when the refer to "Refusing to communicate with team" They are talking about him refusing to pick something he didn't want to pick and playing singed even though his adc was crying for a "Real" support

Malicious Metal10 votes

Good Bards know WHEN to roam and when to stick to their ADC. He's not MIA 24/7

Meep Man3 votes

No, by refusing to communicate, they meant he refused to communicate other than a macro paragraph explaining his strat.

Also, Bard doesn't take Gold and EXP from another one of his teammates when he roams to get chimes. Plus, any good Bard knows that chimes are only good during the laning phase for mana or when absolutely nothing is happening and nothing else is needed to be done.

Battlecast Sona2 votes

actually, they say they found "negative behavior" on his account (ie: toxicity, flaming, etc).

They manually audited his account. Go read the email again.

Zach Sandwhich2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azuk the Jungler,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h5EuPmwM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-11-15T14:03:27.797+0000)

I mean, he does copy-paste a paragraph in draft to explain his intentions. What Riot meant in the ticket by "refusing to communicate" is when his team would tell him NOT to play Singed and he would do it anyway. We don't all need to do what our teammates say or risk being banned, or we'd be playing the shittiest game of all time. Imagine if your team didn't like the meta champion you wanted to play, and you had to conform to their desires or risk being banned...

...and stealing jungle camps? What is it my midlane does to my raptors and blue (without asking)? ...or my botlane taking my red and krugs? Should I be reporting my team every game if they take a camp, just like they should report me if I take a few minions when I come through their lane? No. He's playing a position where the only gold income is the Relic Shield he picks up after his first few camps. If he can't find an opening to take enemy camps, who gives a fuck if he grabs raptors or something?

Hello welcome to League of Legends the TEAM game! You need to work together with your TEAM to win most of the time unless your just shutting on people in the shitstain that is bronze like myself! Having a macro ready for when your team politely ask you not to play support singed is not working with the team. It's just ruining your ADCs game.

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