Lee Sin has overcentalized jungle for years...

Cloud273·Dec 29, 2016·41 votes·2,231 views

And Thresh has overcentralized bot ever since he was released. If Lee Sin is going to get nerfed, does the king of supports also need to be nerfed a bit?

77 Comments

TurquoiseYoshiDec 29, 201610 votes

I know Thresh is coming back a little bit, but I really don't think he needs to be nerfed right now. He hasn't truly been meta for a while now (not fitting into the tank metas or the ranged bully metas), and comparing him to the currently slightly overtuned Lee Sin is a little off imo.

MunchCrunchLunchDec 29, 20164 votes

thresh is coming back a little bit? thresh has had 30% playate in bot lane since halfway in season 5 (thats when i started league. he probably has had that playrate for forever).

but its apparently fine for him to be by far the most picked support for years now.

TurquoiseYoshiDec 29, 20163 votes

I usually think of meta by their usage in pro play, as long-term Solo Queue pick rate doesn't really mean anything about the champ other than that they're popular among random players (which can mean something about the character's design rather than their actual strength). IEM was the only real recent tournament, and Thresh was played a moderate amount there, leading to my statement about him coming back a little bit.

vOmvbrawfUDec 29, 20162 votes

That's because he is actually fun to play, something most supports are simply not. Despite having the absolute highest average games played, he still doesn't even have a 50% win rate.

Geeze, you people bitch about the dumbest shit.

CFGnoahDec 29, 20167 votes

No since thresh is actually bad right now compared to other supports. Hes literally played only in low elo being plat or below and if you check his stats for diamond/masters/challenger hes rarely picked.

RatbertDec 29, 20161 votes

http://champion.gg/champion/Thresh (plat and up) http://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/stats/thresh/diamond Top pick rate, good win rate for the pick rate. According to league of graphs (dunno how reliable this is), thresh actually is picked and wins less as rank goes down. Thresh is actually picked twice as much as janna.

I checked the stats, and they handily disagree. Thresh has and continues to warp support in an almost unmatched way, with janna being a close competitor. Dunno how this meme that thresh is merely average came to be, but it's pretty wrong.

DunkinNoobsDec 29, 20163 votes

What supports can't you play just because Thresh is really popular? That's a serious question: what supports can you not pick because the enemy might pick Thresh? I honestly can't think of any. The Lee whiners annoy the shit out of me, but they are right in that Lee tends to force weak early farmers out of the meta due to his very strong invades and early game pressure. Thresh doesn't do that. A champion that can be extremely popular without making other champs unplayable is absolutely the kind of champ that should be allowed to be very popular. Thresh 30% pick rate is fine. Vayne or Kalista 30% pick makes immobile melee's unplayable.

RatbertDec 29, 20161 votes

It's not that you can't play someone, but he makes it miserable for so many supports. Like he has hard engage for the squishies, where 1 hook can kill you, great disengage for the divers, and arguably the best escape in the game with lantern for the "outplay" that you can do nothing against without fast hard cc. He has almost everything you want in small quantities so you simply can't go wrong with a thresh pick, which is how he warps the game. Why have diversity when you can pick thresh or janna (and nami I guess) and their respective counters?

Not to mention, his hook has 2 shitty gimmicks with his "quicktime event mind game" targeting and magnetic hitbox that if you're up against a good thresh you basically need a support with some pre-6 hard cc or passive play.

DunkinNoobsDec 29, 20162 votes

He's a good generalist pick that is pretty much never a bad choice and doesn't force other champions out of meta. What's the problem, exactly? I can't play champs like Garen or Mundo when Vayne is the meta adc. I can't play any slow clearing jungler when Nidalee is the meta jungler. Who does Thresh force out of the game? No one. You could remove Thresh from the game and the viable support choices would stay exactly the same as they are now.

RatbertDec 29, 20161 votes

I'm not saying that he's forcing others out, just that the person who started this thread is very wrong.

The problem is that thresh broke bot lane's rock paper scissors because you could just play thresh and have everything. He doesn't force anyone out because supports rarely hard counter each other, and there's always a little room to outplay one another because they don't usually have number games. Thresh coincidentally also reduces that room with his bs hook. Besides, overcentralizing != forcing others out.

SH AzykanDec 29, 20161 votes

thresh makes it pretty hard to play leona, sine he can flay your engage every time and outranges you

DunkinNoobsDec 30, 20161 votes

That's true; good threshs are really annoying as a Leona player. Just gotta get a little more creative in your approach.

Wiz the GreatDec 29, 20162 votes

You sure about that bud https://gyazo.com/c2eb3ec2490088437899eb5d0319b941

CFGnoahDec 29, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vanye W3st,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h4XBgmWE,comment-id=00050001,timestamp=2016-12-29T14:06:35.725+0000)

You sure about that bud https://gyazo.com/c2eb3ec2490088437899eb5d0319b941

can't tell if retarded or not.

Wiz the GreatDec 29, 20162 votes

? Oh and 36% pickrate in diamond and third most played support in master, but stay delusional

CFGnoahDec 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vanye W3st,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h4XBgmWE,comment-id=0005000100000000,timestamp=2016-12-29T23:53:15.831+0000)

? Oh and 36% pickrate in diamond and third most played support in master, but stay delusional

if you say so lmao

Wiz the GreatDec 30, 20162 votes

You ok man?You bring up the stats that you got out of your ass, i bring up the actual stats and you call me retarded.. :thinking:

CFGnoahDec 30, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vanye W3st,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h4XBgmWE,comment-id=000500010000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-30T00:18:46.905+0000)

You ok man?You bring up the stats that you got out of your ass, i bring up the actual stats and you call me retarded.. :thinking:

looking up a stat from a 3 day event is pretty sick. good job

Wiz the GreatDec 31, 20161 votes

Let's pretend that something would change if it was longer.But why are you ignoring all the other stats? :)

CFGnoahDec 31, 20161 votes

what other stats? the ones from below plat elo? also thresh winrate is awful lmao thresh is not even good you just suck ass at this game tbh.

Wiz the GreatDec 31, 20161 votes

His playrate in diamond and master?????Can you even read or is that too much to ask from a support player?

CFGnoahJan 1, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Vanye W3st,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h4XBgmWE,comment-id=0005000100000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2016-12-31T23:05:18.632+0000)

His playrate in diamond and master?????Can you even read or is that too much to ask from a support player?

you are dumb af lmao

Jaygo41Dec 29, 20166 votes

Good.

Honestly, the alternatives are WAY worse.

Elise? Sounds awful. Evelynn? Hecarim? You're seeing it now, not fun. Rengar? Ughh. Kindred? Notlikethis.

Pick a jungler, and make them the strongest. Sounds awful, honestly.

Lee at least has to hit stuff with Q and HE DOES ACTUALLY FALL OFF late in the game. It's simply a fact. Maybe he's overtuned, but having him as the jungler to balance around really is the best thing. It's a necessary evil.

DunkinNoobsDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Good.

Honestly, the alternatives are WAY worse.

Elise? Sounds awful. Evelynn? Hecarim? You're seeing it now, not fun. Rengar? Ughh. Kindred? Notlikethis.

Pick a jungler, and make them the strongest. Sounds awful, honestly.

Lee at least has to hit stuff with Q and HE DOES ACTUALLY FALL OFF late in the game. It's simply a fact. Maybe he's overtuned, but having him as the jungler to balance around really is the best thing. It's a necessary evil.

Let's add to the list, shall we? Nidalee kill me now. Gragas Appears on my screen, gotta flash. Shyvana How does she have 150 more CS than my jungler? MasterYi Yes, getting 1v5 penatkilled IS fun. Udyr Dear god WHY? Zac Glad to know my wards are useless. Kayle Remember how getting 1v5 pentakilled was fun?

SH AzykanDec 29, 20161 votes

Amumu oh geeze, wish my team could do anything at this point Diana and I died...again Fiddlesticks everyone first item sightstone? and ward everything nonstop, 1 ward falls and people die Fizz honestly kinda bs even now, but thankfully his clear is terrible atm JarvanIV gragas x2 because flash might not even get you enough range Jax and you thought Yi penta killing was annoying? Maokai GET HIM OFF ME JESUS FCK HE IS STICKY Nocturne oh no vision, someones about to..."enemy double kill" oh it was bot lane Nunu GET OUT OF MY JUNGLE...sorry I mean can I have some of your jungle? yes I mean the jungle closer to my nexus, you can share right q_q Pantheon 7 cs, 8 kills 12 assists currently highest level in the game hasn't cleared a camp since level 3 her ult up? Yes = 100% kills, no = if you don't flash her flash + Q you die anyways Warwick remember 4.20 weedwick? yeah... XinZhao ....

wait I found it Sejuani yes, she is tanky, yes she does damage BUT, she relies on a skill shot to initiate effectively, she doesn't actually have built in sustain so she isn't always prioritizing ganks and farm both, she actually has to manage it. for a tank she is fairly squishy actually, so she relies on her team to follow up, but did bring enough damage of her own to be worth following up on. Can we balance around Sejuani in the jungle?

DunkinNoobsDec 29, 20163 votes

I have mastery 7 on Sejuani, and she was my most played jungler in season 6. You do not want Sejuani to dictate the jungle. She does bruiser levels of damage to carries with tank levels of durability and above average mobility. Her clearspeed is nowhere near as bad as people think it is and her dueling is very underrated as well.

Jaygo41Dec 29, 20161 votes

She is tanky, and does some dmg... like J4

She requires a skillshot to initiate... like J4. Flash ulting is asking to get murdered and his ult sucks anyway

No sustain... like J4

Unlike Free Armor Sejuani, J4 IS ACTUALLY squishy.

The point of current health is to be followed up on. So J4

Problem is, when J4 is balanced around, all that happens is you get gank heavy junglers and invades happening all the time. When J4 is balanced around, he's a nightmare.

Same goes for Sejuani. RIP cinderhulk, you won't be missed

DHBGrimReaperDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Good.

Honestly, the alternatives are WAY worse.

Elise? Sounds awful. Evelynn? Hecarim? You're seeing it now, not fun. Rengar? Ughh. Kindred? Notlikethis.

Pick a jungler, and make them the strongest. Sounds awful, honestly.

Lee at least has to hit stuff with Q and HE DOES ACTUALLY FALL OFF late in the game. It's simply a fact. Maybe he's overtuned, but having him as the jungler to balance around really is the best thing. It's a necessary evil.

Yeah don't nerf him so that the garbage lee players i get keep thinking he's broken then go 4/13 and finished their hydra at 30 minutes but do less damage than our soraka because they couldn't hit a Q on a stationary 6 stack Chogath.

Jaygo41Dec 29, 20161 votes

Or just ignore where i stated he was overtuned. "slash ess"

DHBGrimReaperDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or just ignore where i stated he was overtuned. "slash ess"

Slash ess ECKS DEE

BakedLotionDec 29, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Good.

Honestly, the alternatives are WAY worse.

Elise? Sounds awful. Evelynn? Hecarim? You're seeing it now, not fun. Rengar? Ughh. Kindred? Notlikethis.

Pick a jungler, and make them the strongest. Sounds awful, honestly.

Lee at least has to hit stuff with Q and HE DOES ACTUALLY FALL OFF late in the game. It's simply a fact. Maybe he's overtuned, but having him as the jungler to balance around really is the best thing. It's a necessary evil.

Youre acting like an elise can kill you unless she lands cocoon. Also, if youre lee sin and you dont end the game by 25 minturs its your fault. I can confidently say 95% of the games right now end before the 35 minute mark. And to be quite frank, lee sin doesnt have to land jack shit when he can ward jump to you, kick you and stun you and then throw his q with 100% accuracy

Also, all of the champs u listed arent even as bad as lee excluding rengar and hec.

SH AzykanDec 29, 20161 votes

and then you get all these Lee's that still miss Q while the target cannot dodge it...

Kr1sysDec 29, 20164 votes

That's a big "IF" you put there. They'd have to do something other than his usual lovetaps. And Riot's already come out and said they're not going to do anything to him because of what he brings to competitive play.

Cloud273Dec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

That's a big "IF" you put there. They'd have to do something other than his usual lovetaps. And Riot's already come out and said they're not going to do anything to him because of what he brings to competitive play.

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure someone said Lee Sin is being nerfed next patch. But then again, stuff on pbe changes constantly, so who knows.

Kr1sysDec 29, 20166 votes

{quoted}

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure someone said Lee Sin is being nerfed next patch. But then again, stuff on pbe changes constantly, so who knows.

The only thing being nerfed is his R's base damage, 25% of the base on each rank. Which isn't what his problem is.

NoobTangerangDec 29, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I could be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure someone said Lee Sin is being nerfed next patch. But then again, stuff on pbe changes constantly, so who knows.

@FizzEnthusiast even stated they didn't want to nerf Lee Sin too hard because of his fla$hy play$. LC$ PLAY$

VesemirDec 29, 20164 votes

King of supports. Yeah right. Janna

Legacy HydralphaDec 29, 20165 votes

Thresh and Janna : King and Queen of supports.

VesemirDec 29, 20162 votes

true

Sagan ForeverDec 29, 20161 votes

People play thresh because he is fun even though he is balanced and if you do well he is the only lcs big play support. people play Janna because she is overpowered.

Pentium2Dec 30, 20161 votes

And who would be their child if they had one?

Legacy HydralphaDec 30, 20161 votes

Bard ?

PennsDec 29, 20163 votes

I mean, Thresh really isnt that good atm. I hate playing against him but he is 10x better than Janna or Soraka or Taric or shit like that.

datfatguyDec 29, 20164 votes

Being 10x better than Janna is just not possible.

JVP15Dec 29, 20163 votes

As in being better to play against.

IA9hRfpP5qDec 29, 20162 votes

I still dislike the fact that trinkets benefit Lee Sin. Like trinkets are a GLOBAL ADJUSTMENT, logic in balance should tell you that EVERYONE SHOULD BENEFIT EQUALLY FROM IT. But yeah, Indirect Buff to Lee Sin by letting him ward hop utilizing trinket wards...

They need to make it so that he cannot ward hop to wards placed by trinkets. It's completely ridiculous

"Let's make this global change so that all champions can benefit, but Lee Sin benefits way more since it enhances his mobility options. That's ok, we LOVE LEE SIN!" - Riot Balance Team.

Your will , my hands. LeeSin

Pentium2Dec 30, 20161 votes

The only problem with that logic is that there are no purchaseable stealth wards anymore, you could say, well you can buy a control ward now, but it is just way too expensive to be wasted on jumps, except if it is an emergency situation.

Before trinkets you had to buy stealth wards on him and if the game went longer than expected, then you could finish up a sightstone, right now we have the trinket and the jungle item wards.

Actually I would like the trinkets be removed and having those wards again, was way easier to protect lanes from ganks, well fk me, but I still hate the ward changes and the thing with the " you can only have 3 active wards and 1 control ward on the map"

IA9hRfpP5qDec 30, 20161 votes

{quoted}

The only problem with that logic is that there are no purchaseable stealth wards anymore, you could say, well you can buy a control ward now, but it is just way too expensive to be wasted on jumps, except if it is an emergency situation.

Before trinkets you had to buy stealth wards on him and if the game went longer than expected, then you could finish up a sightstone, right now we have the trinket and the jungle item wards.

Actually I would like the trinkets be removed and having those wards again, was way easier to protect lanes from ganks, well fk me, but I still hate the ward changes and the thing with the " you can only have 3 active wards and 1 control ward on the map"

buy a sightstone then.

DoktorKaiserDec 29, 20162 votes

Only thing that really bothers me with Thresh is the lantern because it can neutralize teammates who cant position for shit and instead of them getting caught they get saved and maybe even bait a few summs. I just want RIOT to add like a 1 second channel that is interupted by taking damage to it, to really balance it. Rest of his kit is fine and he has some counters. Lee however has 0 counters and weaknesses early game and is also quite easier to play so he defines the meta from the lowest elo to the pro play, while Thresh is great only at mid/high elo, sucks balls at low elo and is rarely the top pick for proplay last few seasons except for some comfort picks.