my issue with marksman right now as a support main.

rubberduckie666·Jun 16, 2017·24 votes·1,839 views

at the moment it seems that theres no strategy to picking marksman. what i mean is i remeber there being reasons for picking a marksman besides "They do the most damage right now" at least outside of pro play.

if you needed some form of utility you had and the occasional ad

if you needed seige you would try to grab

lacking damage late game? try

what im getting at here is there needs to be a reason for someone to pick a marksman outside of "they're simply the best at doing damage right now"

i want people to actually have to think about their pick again.

37 Comments

Big LincolnJun 17, 201725 votes

if you want people to think about their pick, introduce non-marksmen to the bot lane position

one class having a guaranteed spot on a team will never be diverse

AirKingNeoJun 17, 20171 votes

Or just make more marksmen (and actually balance the game).

You need DPS from somewhere.

Big LincolnJun 17, 201714 votes

more marksmen justmeans more marksmen will be out of the spotlight when 3 or 4 stand above the rest

and we have DPS in other classes Azir Karthus Cassiopeia Ryze MasterYi Fiora Darius Aatrox etc. but none of them are mandatory because there's actually pros and cons to each and you need to think about comp for them unlike most marksmen

LordOfTheLeagueJun 17, 20173 votes

I main cassio bot and it's really strong.

LordGeovanniJun 17, 20171 votes

Fighters and assassins do dps along with most mages but one is currently an invalid class because riot trying to make tanks not tank and the other 2 have such low base cooldowns with easy access to cdr anyway their burst is constant with bearly any down time

Dasdi96Jun 17, 20176 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h4IM54tR,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-06-17T00:48:52.269+0000)

if you want people to think about their pick, introduce non-marksmen to the bot lane position

one class having a guaranteed spot on a team will never be diverse

We had it before with ziggs bot and other mages replacing marksmen. However, rito decided to buff adcs due to the ridiculous whining from adc mains saying "adc2k17 lul" when they try to go melee range of an assassin or diver.

Big LincolnJun 17, 20179 votes

the issue with those is that they showed up because they were just that powerful

mord bot was because of his XP mechanic, ziggs because he could jsut shove and shove and kill the weak bot tower, etc

We need VERY BIG changes to the game and ADCs if other classes are to dethrone them

Il Sten lIJun 17, 20171 votes

"adc2k17 lul"

You are obviously no adc. After the assassin rework adc's got constantly sh*t on until some nerfs/tweaks. Then arp-marksmen dominated until the changes of bork that brought back diversity (and made adc's the powerhouse again).

LordGeovanniJun 17, 20174 votes

Bullshit adcs got the most benefit out of the assassin rework. Same with the Juggernaut rework because any thing they can leverage adcs can leverage with more safety due to range

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 18, 20173 votes

same during tank update with item 3812 ... And could argue about item 3026 (if u couple this to item 3153 )

Il Sten lIJun 18, 20171 votes

Yes, I know this account is unranked but op.gg makes me question your game knowledge.

LordGeovanniJun 22, 20171 votes

So the meta happens in all ranks at the same time.

WingsofGulgazorJun 17, 20173 votes

the adc 2017 thing came from when the only viable adcs were jhin and varus and then about the only other decent pick was ziggs. Though people still said adc 2017 long after the problems were resolved and some idiots still use it now but adc was in a really shit spot for a while to the point that supports were playing mages to be the carries instead.

Il Sten lIJun 18, 20171 votes

^ this

AimléssJun 17, 20171 votes

So this post is about some marksmen being so much better than others that 3 high damage marksmen at a time will just dominate the meta. Your solution is not "Let's balance marksmen and give them all a serviceable niche to allow all of them to be useful in particular comps." But instead it's, "Let's try to replace them completely, so the meta ones get some competition, but the non meta ones fall so far into the Off-Meta pit that 75% of the class are Urgot and Azir."

It's hard to be an ADC main on these boards since they're hated so much, like its fine if other classes can play ADC, but you have to find a way to get the 10 marksmen that no one plays a chance to shine in other roles and as ADC before you can try to bring in other classes that will push them further into the off-meta pit.

Big LincolnJun 17, 20171 votes

marksmen has always been dominated by a few strongest picks. this hasn't changed since I started in season 4

"actual competition" =/= "replacement" don't put words in my mouth. you will never get good results only balancing one group of champs against each other.

Pommel KnightJun 17, 20171 votes

Try since season 2, ever since they figured the bot lane niche. Trust me only 2-3 adcs are viable at the time while the rest are meh or only hard core main material.

What adc's need is to be weak to something, like assassins before the rework. So for example if the enemy has zed, fizz or talon and they can insta gib your adc you go morde, fora or some more durable champion that can survive the burst. Get tanky assassin counters instead of nerfing them every time to suit the adcs, there is no reason to nerf a class just to make another viable.

Adc's need to lose favor and be seen as optional, one step would be for them not to be burst dmg like now and be sustained dmg over time that is beneficial against tanks or imobiles.

ChaosThiefJun 18, 20171 votes

Well the thing is, you can try that, but of course, being meta sheep, they will count it immediately as trolling unless a pro picked it. With the exception of Mordekaiser bot lane, which was a forced mechanic.

I have done Yasuo ADC and Gnar ADC, and they are quite fun, but when it comes down to it people always prefer a traditional marksmen because "that's how the meta goes."

Tobias BracknerJun 18, 20172 votes

This this this this this. There are plenty of people who can rock the botlane. The only reason they aren't being played there is MUH META

YaskamasandwichJun 17, 20171 votes

In my experience at the ass end of season 1 that was never the case. It was always the trinity of Marksmen, or ADC at the time. You had the main one whom was Meta, that main one's counter, than the counter to the counter. They also all had the same kit style like mobility or early game burst, or late game power house.

Edit: Damn auto-correct

chipndip1Jun 17, 20172 votes

...so nothing's changed since then?

QuickerBladeJun 17, 20171 votes

Draven

Bladerunner7777Jun 17, 20171 votes

ADC isn't fun unless the ADC you're playing is viable/strong.

There's a reason why ADC mains are rarely one-tricks.

But, the request "make the ADCs more diverse" is kinda impossible. There will ALWAYS be a handful of ADCs that are the strongest, and that's all people will play. All ADCs kinda do the same thing: AA enemies and turrets, so whoever does it best will be top tier.

In midlane you can have champs that are Assassins, good at roaming, good at teamfighting, good at supporting, etc. That diversity hardly exists in the ADC role where it is exclusively Marksman.

TóxicoChicoGuapoJun 17, 20171 votes

adcs are always going to be crowded out by whoever is the strongest. thats it.

its improved a lot, but still has a ways to go.

you see Ziggs in bot lane now, mordekaiser is still viable, and wildapsona says he can play ap sona in bot lane even in challenger. so that's 3 champs in theory that can go bot lane and replace a marksman. its not much but its a start.

and as for a reason to pick the adc? its just a playstyle preference to be honest. there can't be much of a strategic reason outside of pro play since really in solo queue its all up to you to carry your 4 potato teammates.

I think right now all of the adcs have a pretty unique playstyle and feel different compared to how they used to. they used to all feel the same. Caitlyn had literally no reason to pick her besides "i want to crush my lane) and did not feel unique in anyway. Corki was just your standard adc who went trinity force instead of the typical crit build. now that he's a magic damage based champ and has his passive he's way more unique. quinn had literally zero reason to play her before the marksman rework. now she has a unique split push and zoom zoom across the map playstyle.

i really don't think there's any way to make marksman have a strategic reason to pick them in solo queue as no one really picks for strategic reasons as you can't rely on your teammates. I mean are you going to pick malphite or wukong just because XxYasuoisDaddyXx locked in his main with a 43% win rate?

WingsofGulgazorJun 17, 20171 votes

what do you mean there's varus/ashe/caitlyn/twitch/draven are all strong now and pretty much all the other adc's are still good maybe even just slightly worse then them. There are games were ezreal or kogmaw can be the best choice and even things like sivir can be alright. But the thing is that people tend to pick carries so since everything is viable they pick the carries more often.

But the stronger adc's are strong because of Bork exept for Draven which has that one item he always builds.

chipndip1Jun 17, 20171 votes

There hasn't been real marksman balance since I've started playing.

Here's the deal: Bot lane is ALWAYS dominated by 3-4 marksmen. All others are off-meta. If Cait got nerfed out? One marksman would replace her and it'd be the same cycle all over again but with a new face. The marksman game play in and of itself needs an overhaul. As it is, there's never EVER a reason to pick more than those 3 or 4.

Either that or make it so that different marksmen do well in different lanes. Not just 1 or 2, but a few can go mid/top or a few can go jg, as well as making it so some other class types can do well bot. Either approach could mix things up a bit, but right now it's stat stick vs. stat stick every game.

KyunseiJun 17, 20171 votes

I feel the same way as you do. Marksmen feel mandatory, and I still don't know why it stays at such. (Ziggs bot)

Maybe Rune Reforged later this year will improve this.

SpecterVonBarenJun 17, 20171 votes

This has always been how picking marksmen has worked.

Riot tried to alleviate this problem with the marksman update but the fact of the matter is that as long as a marksman is mandatory for a team comp then people will always pick the ones that are the best. Anything unique about this or that marksman will always just be a bonus in addition to them being the general best pick.

Part of this is also because at the end of the day almost every ADC plays the same in terms of their main purpose which is auto attacking. The only exceptions to this are Graves and Jhin. If Riot wants people to pick different marksmen for different situations then they need to make more unique auto attack mechanics for them.

LordGeovanniJun 22, 20171 votes

Or make their utility (Cc and self buffs) More or less the same strength

LordGeovanniJun 17, 20171 votes

Out side of top play its always been who does most dps everything else was always extra but not important

Tobias BracknerJun 18, 20171 votes

Sounds like a problem with the players instead of the game.

Sounds like people aren't good at punishing the Marksmen who just do RAW DAMAGE.

LordGeovanniJun 22, 20171 votes

Question what is the best cc in the game?

Tobias BracknerJun 22, 20171 votes

Suppression, I believe.

LordGeovanniJun 23, 20171 votes

The correct answer is death. No its not just a meme it lasts longer than any other cc and has all the same features as suppression except you can still use item 3107 it has no bars on who can cause it and has other benifits. Naturally who ever can cause this to happen the fastest while also being the least likely to have it happen to them will be the strongest aka Marksmen. Not to mention most marksmen have slows and caitlyn with a slow and a root kalysta with slow and knock up. And most marksmen who have slows have heavier slows than most tanks and fighters. Not to mention other forms of utility mobility. Just punish marksmen when they are the hardest to punish class while being the strongest 'adc 2k17'. Easy to say but reality isnt so easy Ps stuns are objectively a stronger form of cc than suppression as you dont essentially stun your self for the durration you stun the enemy.

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20171 votes

It is just a meme.

Death is the most unreliable source of CC since it has a variable channel time and has a comedic amount of things that can stop it from successfully resolving.

Such as actual non-meme CC.

Also Stuns are not objectively stronger. Look up stuns vs suppression. The two options have different trade-offs but in terms of pure CC as in your ability to prevent a target from doing something then Suppression is the stronger option.

LordGeovanniJun 24, 20171 votes

Adcs can auto attack and kill things more reliably than most stuns get applied

Tobias BracknerJun 24, 20171 votes

Uuuuuh, you got data for that?