@riot, please dont force ziggs out of botlane

rubberduckie666··119 votes·79,571 views

this is the first major meta shift we have seen in years and it happened **naturally **, as a direct result of this new botlane we could see entirely new (for the past 3 or 4 years anyways) botlanes to counter it. without having to make them batshit broken or forcing them into it (im looking at you Mordekaiser).

juggernauts with engage supports Darius+Thresh , assassins with sustain supportsTalon+Soraka , mages with dissengage supports Cassiopeia Janna

they're so many botlane combos that could become viable simply because of ziggs showing up botlane.

please dont nerf him into the ground because of this

173 Comments

RiotRiot Axes82 votes

Haven't discussed Ziggs with the team yet, but I don't see any reason why we'd try to force him out of bot lane. We'll of course need to ensure general game balance - if it's super overbearing in bot lane, it'll get nerfed for that reason. (I haven't looked at the data yet, so I'm not saying it is overbearing)

We've actually been tweaking rules to open up tower killing to more classes for a while - for example, putting armor/MR on towers and allowing penetration to work on it at midseason - in the hopes that something like this would eventually happen.

Zerenza24 votes

I personally actually really like the whole "Seige Mage/Artilary Mage" play style in Ziggs and Xerath and think that we don't have enough of it, i'd like to see another one of those champs be made cause those are the only two i can personally name as that class.

But the reason why Ziggs works is because bot lane is easier to take and gives more gold so an easy way to get that bot snowball rolling that usually results in a won game is simply by putting someone down there who can take it down faster. ( i really think this would be EASILY fixed by just removing first turret gold and shifting that over to Rift Herald maybe to remove the emphasis on bot.)

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Really don't know why they won't do more with rift herald.

Zerenza4 votes

It's out of fear that we'd see duo top lane and solo bot lane due to power shifting from one lane to another. But simply removing first turret blood and shifting it to a global gold value of Rift Herald would simply remove the emphasis on getting the weaker bot tower so early because you only get the kills and the normal turret gold instead of the kills, extra gold, then more extra gold.

Arakadia2 votes

Why doesn't Riot want duo top?

Takazaki6 votes

because farming top laners would abuse it

and baron/rift could be problematic

imagine a nasus who you cant zone or pressure without having to send at least 4 after

Illaoi who can now push you to tower and slap the shit out of you for free

Gangplank free farm

basically any scaling top laner would be able to curb stomp mid game making ADC's nearly obsolete outside of super safe jinx/cait/tristana mids

Arakadia2 votes

Wait but how does top laners going bot and adc+supp going top give farm top laners an advantage?

Pyrokineticmage4 votes

{quoted}

Wait but how does top laners going bot and adc+supp going top give farm top laners an advantage?

I didn't see who you replied to. But from the sound of it you don't understand this strat so I'll just say it like you are new to LCS strats.

When the bot lanes match up is bad and predicted to be a bad match up the Bot laners that are countered will switch with the top laner to avoid a predictable losing lane.

So in a Caitlyn vs Vayne match up, Caitlyn can theoritcally bully Vayne out of lane in the laning phase (FYI I am ignoring supports for now and the fact that Vayne is kind of broken right now). So to compensate the Vayne well go top to avoid the matchup entirely and outscale Caitlyn in the late game.

Though this strat is now not used because Riot buffed top towers too be more tanky to avoid these boring passive LCS games. So anyone who runs this strat runs the risk of losing first tower to the enemy.

Edit - The strat works for both bot and top in the laning phase (just reread your post)

Takazaki2 votes

The Op implied Top laner and support combos rather then the ADC support we are use to, some champions are balanced around the fact they can be ganked easily

TotalJerk6 votes

Shifting the bonus to Rift Herald would probably cause top and bot to switch sides for the first few minutes of the game.

Zerenza2 votes

I really don't think so, the thing with the bot lane dynamic is that it's good for everyone, so naturally taking bot lane was always better because dragon was always a better objective and killing bot is worth 2 kills as well so again, really good. Then we added the first turret blood and made bot tower weaker and people realized that bot lane is the lane to win if you want to snowball hard.

Overall the amount of gold pilled into botlane is immense compared to other lanes(about 1600 gold is in 4v2 bot dive) which makes it the prime target for 4v2 dives. But if we took the 400 gold away from first turret blood and put it on an objective that's on the exact other side of the map bot lane wouldn't have to be dived so often.

Also as a side note, the minions in top don't spawn as frequently as bot, ADC's need that extra gold but they'll miss out on much needed gold for their high cost items.

PlanetWarwick5 votes

They're the same aren't they

underscores22212 votes

Pretty sure minions spawn with the same frequency down all three lanes

Zerenza1 votes

No they don't, mid lane get's minion waves faster than the two side lanes. Bot lane get's seige minions first and top lane get's them last.

Votable Jester7 votes

You get the earlier mid because they have to travel a shorter distance, but they spawn and reach lanes at equal intervals. Top and bot get the same number of minions at the same time all game long.

Zerenza2 votes

I really don't think it will be an issue, i seriously don't think Top and Bot will completely flip just because rift herald get's extra gold. The buff isn't useful on most ADC's and it isn't a global buff either so it doesn't make any sense to put the bot laner's top for the sole purpose of getting a buff they can't use.

resumed3 votes

Velkoz Lux Varus Syndra all have a long range and can be played similarly to ziggs and xerath

Zerenza2 votes

I always forget about vel'koz, even though he's not bad i always forget him so your right. Varus is an AD Caster marksmen like corki but he has great range.

Lux and Syndra are assassins plain and simple(Burst Mages don't get triggered lol)

Sevixys7 votes

Varus is a hybrid artillery mage/marksman according to riot. Yes, his main role is a mage lol. Also, got triggered from syndra being an 'assassin' even tho it's kinda accurate. :D Assassin=/=burst.

The full list of champs considered at least half artillery mages is: Ziggs Xerath Velkoz Lux Nidalee Jayce Ezreal Varus

BlueBilberry5 votes

If turret-taking as a skill was the sole thing at play here, then Tristiana would be a more viable adc. But she has, arguably, become one of the least popular adcs.

TotalJerk27 votes

Just please don't target bot specifically. Ziggs mid is currently sporting a 54% winrate.

Meep Man8 votes

I think if they are going to nerf Ziggs (probably needs a small one), they should nerf the mana cost on his Q and/or the AP Ratio of his ultimate slightly. Like, 60/65/70/75/80 mana for Q (+10).

The Butt Fairy11 votes

Would rather not have the mana nerf, he's already one of those most mana-intensive characters in the game, who basically cannot lane without blue buff and HAS to go Morello or Tear first to do anything.

FantasySniper10 votes

Increase his weakness without forcing him to change builds.

Why is this a "bad idea"?

Raxistaicho3 votes

Wouldn't putting MR on towers make it harder for mages to take them?

Verxint20 votes

I really hope you read this reply

if it's super overbearing in bot lane, it'll get nerfed for that reason. (I haven't looked at the data yet, so I'm not saying it is overbearing)

This is the problem you guys always have. "Well see if it's overbearing".

Then you always conclude "we like new ideas and we aren't against thembut it was doing just a bit better than it should, yadda yadda" and you give a nerf that basically makes the original off-meta idea never seen again.

I really want you guys to understand something.

When a new strategy appears, people do not know how to counter it yet. It will naturally outperform traditional lanes until people learn how to play against it.

A lot of what the OP is trying to say here, I think, is that if you let it be how it is instead of trying to protect people who refuse to adapt, people will come up with lanes that do well against it. Give people the time to develop and learn to use effective counters before you conclude that the new strategy is performing too well.

Of course a new strategy is going to perform well. If it wasn't good, people wouldn't use it. Since it's something new, people won't know how to play against it and will lose in situations they could have won because they lacked experience. This doesn't mean the new strategy is too strong, it means people need time to learn.

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with Riot's balancing is knee-jerk nerfs and buffs based on populism swings and e-sports and never giving players time to learn and adapt.

rubberduckie6664 votes

{quoted}

I really hope you read this reply

This is the problem you guys always have. "Well see if it's overbearing".

Then you always conclude "we like new ideas and we aren't against thembut it was doing just a bit better than it should, yadda yadda" and you give a nerf that basically makes the original off-meta idea never seen again.

I really want you guys to understand something.

When a new strategy appears, people do not know how to counter it yet. It will naturally outperform traditional lanes until people learn how to play against it*.

A lot of what the OP is trying to say here, I think, is that if you let it be how it is instead of trying to protect people who refuse to adapt, people will come up with lanes that do well against it. Give people the time to develop and learn to use effective counters before you conclude that the new strategy is performing too well.

Of course a new strategy is going to perform well. If it wasn't good, people wouldn't use it. Since it's something new, people won't know how to play against it and will lose in situations they could have won because they lacked experience. This doesn't mean the new strategy is too strong, it means people need time to learn.

In my opinion, one of the biggest problems with Riot's balancing is knee-jerk nerfs and buffs based on populism swings and e-sports and never giving players time to learn and adapt.

hit the nail right on the head

Crimsonhaseo3 votes

Have been a Ziggs main mid for a while, and not tried bot lane but can understand the issue. Q has long reach with bounces but should be easy to dodge as well W has that nice hexplode on towers a 25/27.5/30/33.5/35% HP which gives people the scare that they can't hold a tower near death but this is mute fact as any good dmg adc can take that turret's HP down fast too, he just has a safe distance from it. It is his 1 OP skill and only works on Towers and not on Inhibs so I don't think it's worth nerfing without giving him a major buff elsewhere or else he's likely to not be picked hardly ever then. E is a nice slow but only if you get them to hit and too many champs have rolls, dashes, and charges that cancel them out, the ones QQing over it are the ones who don't have that. R is a nice ult, but has already had it's range reduced once before and it's not any more powerful than Lux's or EZ's long single line ult and yet it still got nerfed a few patches ago with how it only does max dmg if they are in the center so just moving 2 steps nullifies over half the dmg. If anything I'd call for a slightly large AOE and a 3 ring circle, Center being max dmg, middle for 2/3rd, and outer for 1/2 dmg. Since so many have dashes, like Yasuo, Jax, Zed, and Fiora who can exit it entirely as well as Flash, then maybe it's a nice idea to make it more of a good hit. Or lower the CD on it to give him more chances to hit since many of the other champs are getting where the CDs at 40% CDR on their ults are only about 25-35 seconds.

I do like the idea of Armor/MR on towers and letting penetration work as you already DO have some of that on them already without the pen working. And as far as him in bot lane being overbearing, it's only cause bot lane ADC/Support combos are use to fighting other ADC/Support combos, changing out for a mage/Support combo is giving them issues cause of his Q range, other mages are at a shorter range anyway usually or should be the more annoying ones that AREN'T getting mentioned that can CC and attack an ADC outside their range, like Ryze, Cass, or Syndra. However with his lack of healing and his already squishiness they shouldn't have a problem with him, it's just they are dealing with more AOE abilities and not knowing that they need to dodge until his mana is gone and then dive on him. His minion clearing shouldn't be any more than a Jinx clearing with Rockets or a Tris clearing with her E's? passive that explodes minions she kills with AA. His CD and mana consumption on his Q make it where if he uses it constantly to minion clear and push, he's opening himself to be oom when he gets up to tower and they can dive on him easily.

I've said this is some other posts about Ziggs, I personally think he needs a bit of a buff in the self healing department as he's getting beat out by Ahri, Akali, and Ryze as well as others, in that area who have scaling healing/shields in their abilities in addition to what items can give them. Also many seem to have higher mana regen or lower spell costs as I've seen them throwing spells as often as I am on Ziggs and they are at nearly full when I'm below 50%. This forces me to build specific items to compensate for that that usually get me fussed at by my team for what i'm building, Hextech Gunblade especially as it's the best healing I can get, only other option is Rod Of Ages which only heals on spell USE for a max of 25 per spell. HGB will still give 5% of the aoe dmg, and 15% on the single target dmg. It works but requires a high gold cost when compared to how an ADC can grab a Vamp Scepter early and get the full 10% Life Steal to heal and focus on their dmg and crit items before building it into BoRK, BT, HGB, or Ravenous (if melee) to get the same or a bit more LS. With his lack of Hard CC and Self healing all he has is his ranged dmg and his W hexplode on towers to make him a champ people will pick, many are still preferring Ahri, Lux, or Syndra in mid most commonly.

RiotRiot Axes6 votes

Just to clarify a couple things (saw a few comments here and on Reddit that indicated I wasn't as clear as I should have been):

As of today, we have no plans to nerf or change Ziggs at all. This could change very quickly if we get better data indicating that there's a problem, of course.


It is possible that bot lane Ziggs gets 'killed' at some point - all I'm saying here is that I don't believe we'd make that a specific goal.

It could end up being collateral damage to some set of Marksman buffs; it could end up being that Ziggs is OP at some point and nerfs that make him fair in mid lane make him not worth picking in bot lane; it could turn out it was just a transient fad that fades away with time. We're not committed to maintaining it permanently, we're just not setting out to remove it deliberately right now.

Mysticman8918 votes

As long as ziggs doesn't push all other bot lane options out of viability (which strikes me as very unlikely), riot is unlikely to do anything over it, as they like seeing creative champion uses. I could possibly see it causing them to look at trist for buffs though, as tower destruction was at one point supposed to be her thing.

It's only when champs turn out to be extremely lacking in counterplay with their 'new' role/build that Riot steps in and tweaks things, so I wouldn't worry too much in this case.

Remlap12233 votes

Never forget Janna and Raka mid.

Or Mordekaiser ADC.

Mysticman898 votes

Ah yes, janna mid. The exciting world of perfect waveclear, all without the need to leave the safety of under your tower. I can kindve make it work at low elo still, but it's so lackluster now compared to when her q had more than twice the ap ratio.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

Trist really needs to be looked at. She has two niches of being a good tower taker and being able to get a huge AA range but in both cases she's outclassed by other ADC's that don't give up what she does to have those niches. Caitlyn has more range than Tristana until level 16 and most games don't even reach that point while Jinx not only gets more range from leveling up her Q but she also takes towers faster without needing an ability to do it. On top of all this, Trisana is now the ONLY ADC that has no instant burst or an ability that effects enemies outside her auto range now that Twitch's W is a persistent AOE effect.

FourVsFive14 votes

being able to 1 shot a tower is kinda broken if you ask me.

Remlap12232 votes

I'm OK with his W doing that. I'm not ok with him building Lich Bane, pot of Sorcery, Deathcap, and then one shotting the tower with his passive. His passive getting the double damage on structures removed is one nerf I'm OK with.

RocketRelm14 votes

To be fair, the qtpie clip that everyone saw of him doing that had 500 ish True Damage on the Ziggs auto, so I think that was with 3 Earth Drakes.

You probably need at least a second Lich Bane Proc auto before throwing the W on the tower normally.

Remlap12233 votes

True, but the fact that he does magic damage scaling with AP on towers now, as well as an execute, but still gets the double damage from his passive just screams maximum overkill.

I'm speaking as someone who mains Ziggs. I think he's not too overbearing in of himself, but he's way too good at dunking towers with even just one mountain Drake.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

{quoted}

being able to 1 shot a tower is kinda broken if you ask me.

Nasus anyone?

FourVsFive7 votes

{quoted}

Nasus anyone?

sure if some how he gets 3.5k stacks which will never happen, but I literately mean ziggs can kill a full HP tower in 2 sec. Vs a stacked fed nasus which is like 8sec.

Asayake 5150glow4 votes

{quoted}

sure if some how he gets 3.5k stacks which will never happen, but I literately mean ziggs can kill a full HP tower in 2 sec. Vs a stacked fed nasus which is like 10sec.

Meh, he can get ~800 stacks in a good game, plus Triforce and the ~110 base damage. That's about 1.2k damage.

kirbyzama7 votes

I actually think more classes ought to be playable bot lane. One of the things that every other map position has is multiple roles. So if say dps mages are played bot over marksmen exclusively it will show either they are too strong or marksmen are too weak. As it stands no one can draw a consensus on if marksmen are strong or not because they have nothing to compare too. They are the only class that can play a duo lane and not be crippled and they are the only class that reliably siege a turret at range. So even if marksmen are weak you will have to use one. And if they are strong its hard to tell if its from team assistance or if they are just over tuned. Also bot just needs a bigger champ pool. Only playing marksmen is one thing but you can't even play most of them in any one meta. Top and Mid can play almost half of the cast without going down more than 3-4 tiers.

warpenguin5554 votes

I like having it too. But legit question, what support goes well with Ziggs bot?

50000000000000006 votes

Purely speculating, but I'd assume someone who can help clear and run away. Ziggs wants to siege and push in, so i think Karma is the ideal support. Maybe also Tahm Kench, Morgana, and Zilean.

Personally, i think Ziggs support coupled with a tower taking ADC might be better for taking towers, but laning may be difficult.

IcyPepper2 votes

How about a marksman support? :V

Ashe MissFortune

SmileInABox9 votes

Shiptur, the guy who kinda invented Ziggs adc, said supports who push well like Zyra and Karma so that Ziggs can use mana to poke enemies under tower.

rubberduckie6661 votes

{quoted}

I like having it too. But legit question, what support goes well with Ziggs bot?

Alistar Nami(sustain) Morgana Nautilus Leona (easy combo) Braum Janna TahmKench(peel) Karma Sona (???) if you're feeling cheesy Zyra Blitzcrank Lux Kennen Galio

The Loveless2 votes

I really like Zyra and Ziggs

DwarvenGiant2 votes

Rioters/Riot in general loves these kind of stuff. Unlikely that they'd intentionally force Ziggs out of Bot.

A Liberal9 votes

They ripped old zyra out of solo lanes so fast though. And malz out of the jungle.

Remlap12232 votes

Because Malz took no damage and Zyra was about as interactive in lane as Heimerdinger before her rework.

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