The jungle finally has much more variety because of the double smite then...

YOU BEEN WARNED·Jan 23, 2015·79 votes·12,292 views

Increase first upgrade 100 gold ? Why ?

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/01/122-pbe-update.html

Many junglers get really low after killing blue & red so they B for to stay relevant in the game.

Increasing the price will encourage earlier ganks since the jungle hits so hard, and guess who has most success with that without the smite items?

The current patch is a big step forward towards jungle variety, we don't need to step back from this with the +100g change.

88 Comments

DrMarshSwampJan 23, 201524 votes

Personally I think with how hard the camps hit combined with the increased gold on jungler items the jungle is very unforgiving, and this new change hurts the weaker junglers far more than the stronger junglers out there.

BresnJan 23, 20152 votes

Evelynn buffed +5 armor, then Rito admits the problem (Sort of) and literally gives her more mana sustain rather than better scaling/more armor

Skia AsteriJan 23, 201512 votes

{quoted}

buffed +5 armor, then Rito admits the problem (Sort of) and literally gives her more mana sustain rather than better scaling/more armor

You mean they nerfed her mana sustain.

BresnJan 23, 20151 votes

I haven't given it much thought.

Eve has a really small mana pool so the regen based on missing mana might be a nerf.

Skia AsteriJan 23, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I haven't given it much thought.

Eve has a really small mana pool so the regen based on missing mana might be a nerf.

It cause her to be low far more often during a larger range of levels (centered around 9 when Q is maxed).

RaptameiJan 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I haven't given it much thought.

Eve has a really small mana pool so the regen based on missing mana might be a nerf.

It's faster at low mana but slower at high mana. From 100% to 0% mana it's the samel, but since you never fall to 0% mana, it's a nerf.

Skia AsteriJan 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It's faster at low mana but slower at high mana. From 100% to 0% mana it's the samel, but since you never fall to 0% mana, it's a nerf.

No. Going from zero to max mana takes longer now because base regen works against it now.

RiotRiot ReinboomJan 23, 201518 votes

First thing to note: The second tier of upgrades is being reduced by 100. Ideally, this shouldn't have much real change on the game except in ONE specific scenario... First blood.

The current upgrades are 350 up from Machete. If a level 1 fight breaks out and if a jungler gets the first blood (+400 gold), it can cause the game to snowball right out of the gate since they have access to an upgrade on their first clear and still have their consumable incidentals. The difference between an upgrade and no upgrade is stark. This change is intended to help alleviate that a little bit.

RaptameiJan 23, 201568 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3pRpPXs,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-01-23T21:04:23.653+0000)

First thing to note: The second tier of upgrades is being reduced by 100. Ideally, this shouldn't have much real change on the game except in ONE specific scenario... First blood.

And every jungler that dies in the jungle without an upgraded jungle item, ie every tank. They're already struggling until they have enough gold to upgrade machete, and you just forced them to do an extra camp.

But LeeSin can still do his #lcsbigplays as usual so who gives a shit right?

YfrappefortJan 24, 201513 votes

{quoted}

And every jungler that dies in the jungle without an upgraded jungle item, ie every tank. They're already struggling until they have enough gold to upgrade machete, and you just forced them to do an extra camp.

But can still do his #lcsbigplays as usual so who gives a shit right?

Seriously, I'm mad now. Riot just proved yet again that they don't give a shit about tanks jungler...as if they were not struggling enough already.

DUDE BROJan 24, 201512 votes

Yep, why cater to 99.9% of games where the junglers (especally tanks) need that early upgrade?

God forbid the 0.1% game where a Jungler gets first blood before the jungle even spawns.

blueberrypancakeJan 24, 20151 votes

Malphite Jungle is something I've tried and he actually has great clear speed and sustain due to his e reducing the attack speed of the camps allowing you to farm huge amounts (maybe not ww sustain but you get the point). Although Malphite does lack damage, but you have amazing engage (we love you too Yasuo) and late game you pretty much have 110% max health because of shield. Yes Malphite Jungle is low tier but he isn't affected by these changes that much, he can get hydra or frostborn for damage, and juggernaut from there.

Phil FlyJan 24, 20155 votes

Let's just get rid of all junglers and replace them with LeeSin

Colgate GatorJan 23, 201538 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Reinboom,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3pRpPXs,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2015-01-23T21:04:23.653+0000)

First thing to note: The second tier of upgrades is being reduced by 100. Ideally, this shouldn't have much real change on the game except in ONE specific scenario... First blood.

The current upgrades are 350 up from Machete. If a level 1 fight breaks out and if a jungler gets the first blood (+400 gold), it can cause the game to snowball right out of the gate since they have access to an upgrade on their first clear and still have their consumable incidentals. The difference between an upgrade and no upgrade is stark. This change is intended to help alleviate that a little bit.

The problem is that this changes address a non-existen problem, but creates a new one for those junglers that don't have Sustain or super efficient clears as the ones states by OP, so with that change the gap between these and the others widens even more.

If the jungler really gets a First blood before all that happens, which is a really rare scenario save for when your team wants to invade even if the enemy team comp is a stronger Lvl 1, then the enemy jungler by all means deserves that.

I suppose we need to test it out, but not fully on board with it.

coppinslingerJan 23, 20156 votes

To play Devil's Advocate, this may be a change aimed at competitive play where early leads in the Jungle are MUCH more important.

It may not be a problem in soloQ, but in the competitive scene, it could be an issue.

Just to give a counter-point. I don't like the change either.

DrCyanideJan 23, 201520 votes

I'm a little confused by this. It sounds like any jungler that was barely able to get 350 gold just by jungling is being forced to try and get first blood in order to compete in the jungle?

The charge system felt like it was already a nerf to jungler's early game (the only point of the game where you're likely to use smite right when it came off cooldown), and now this nerf, again to the early game of junglers.

With most junglers not starting Red/Blue, I haven't noticed as many invades. Where are are these first blood's coming from?

EDIT: Last night I had a game where the enemy team's jungler started as a second mid, then after he'd leveled up enough he went jungle. Do you think these changes will push that as the new meta?

Grand ElevenJan 23, 201511 votes

EDIT: Last night I had a game where the enemy team's jungler started as a second mid, then after he'd leveled up enough he went jungle. Do you think these changes will push that as the new meta?

Did the current mid rage with the burning hate of a thousands suns? Because I can't imagine trying that in solo Q without being reported every game.

DrCyanideJan 24, 20151 votes

It was blind normals, and I queued up with two friends. I assume the Renekton (mid) and Zed (mid/jungle) on the other team were friends as well, since no complaints came across all chat and they seemed to be having fun.

... There was also the fact that these guys were playing two manaless champions in mid, which made my life harder...

darkdillJan 23, 20154 votes

My jungle Leona will suffer from this change. Ideally, I want her to go Gromp, Wolves, Red, Raptors, Gromp, recall, and then I can afford Boots AND Ranger's. This change will leave me 100 gold short, and with too little health to take another camp.

T_T

cFlameJan 24, 20151 votes

You could play Nautilus. But you play a support jungle instead. Nautilus will end up outscaling your precious W with one to two health items.

Gear KittyJan 25, 20152 votes

Yes, but Leona has practically the same kit, with the added benefit of being able to jump (dash) a wall as part of an engage without using Flash.

AND doesn't go OOM nearly as often or hard.

DreadlocksJan 23, 201517 votes

I hope they drop this. I think the jungle is in a pretty damn good spot right now. At least compared to how it started in preseson. Nerfing it would just down right piss many jungle mains off.

Baron PerenoldeJan 23, 201511 votes

I hate to say it, Reinboom, but honestly your answer is horse-sh#t. Because certain types of junglers (ie LeeSin ) can snowball off first blood, even though EVERY other lane is capable of benefiting from first blood, you're going to punish other junglers? When is Nunu going to get first blood? Nautilus? Sej? ADC junglers? They don't have the ability to gank super early like Shaco, Lee or J4... Their first clear butchers them to the point that they HAVE to go back after wolves or risk death. And now they have to possibly hold back on getting their item even -longer-? I just don't get it.

EDIT: Nunu was a poor example, that mofo can clear and heal easily regardless of his item.

captainkaigerJan 23, 20155 votes

Yeah, this price change is going to have the exact opposite effect intended. The champs you've listed are easily the three biggest contenders for early ganks with their sustain, tankiness, and damage. They don't need to back after clearing the red and blue like other champs ( Nautilus , Sejuani , if Evelynn could survive even the first camp since people don't like to give a hard leash for her). While the pure sustain champs Fiddlesticks Warwick won't truly be that useful till they hit six and can get their respective ults.

I really wish Evelynn was useful again because the whole idea of a champ who relies on stealth and surprise is great. She could come from behind your lane and gank without you ever knowing, but then her Snake detection field got increased to the point that they'll see you well before you get in range. On top of this, her damage, kit identity, and general usefulness all need a huge overhaul. She's still listed as an assassin mage, but at this point the league of dashes outscale her MS buff. What's the point of having that speed boost, when half the champs have a much quicker escape making you waste your time.

All this said, I don't main Evelynn. I spend my days in the jungle more often than not sparring with since she has this personality, and playstyle that match me perfectly. Confident, brash, and tough; ready to fight but I don't spoil for it. "I'll get in your face and hit you hard if you step to me."

futuresight23Jan 24, 20155 votes

Well, the messenger has been thoroughly shot, beaten, set on fire and thrown to the vultures.

In any event, I guess it is up to the PBE as to whether this change creates more problems than it solves.

WullfJan 23, 20154 votes

they added 100 gold to first upgrade but lowered by 100 gold the second one.

Personally, I dont play jungle much, but when I do I have no problem getting gold for the first upgrade and have at least 100 gold left.

yukumariJan 23, 20151 votes

I feel l ike this is very important to note.... They didn't really increase anything, they jut shifted costs around. I wish OP included this part in the main post.

LeonixxiiiJan 23, 201511 votes

{quoted}

I feel l ike this is very important to note.... They didn't really increase anything, they jut shifted costs around. I wish OP included this part in the main post.

Irrelevant as the first clear before you can afford that first item is the issue, leaving you open to be picked of easy to any high tier champion.

TwitchInMyPantsJan 24, 20154 votes

Ok, so after reading that red post one thing is clear. If you aren't Lee Sin, Warwick, Shaco, or J4, pack your bags and get out of the jungle. Variety is toxic for the game.

Bears Dont CareJan 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Ok, so after reading that red post one thing is clear. If you aren't Lee Sin, Warwick, Shaco, or J4, pack your bags and get out of the jungle. Variety is toxic for the game.

Remove Warwick, he got gutted remember?

xJLx MCHammerJan 23, 20153 votes

It's exactly why they stopping this.

It's becoming a trend where you go -Golem to red, you have enough to purchase upgrade, then go to blue OR -Frog, Blue, Wolves, you go back and have enough to upgrade AND by 2 pots, then go to blue

people are by passing the idea that you should buy trailblazer to help you clear. Now people are just getting other jungle item because the first clear can become easy using these jungle paths

Eiskalt79Jan 23, 201512 votes

Some junglers like Evelynn and Nautilus like to buy the Trailblazer anyways and they would back after one side of the jungle cleared for more than just the item. They would clear their safe side of the jungle, go back and buy Trailblazer to help clear, and in the process would heal back up before going into a possible unsafe side of the jungle given the prevalence of Pantheon, Lee Sin, Rek'sai, Jarvan, and Vi who can easily kill them early.

If they're going to make the machete upgrade cost 100 more, they need to buff the early clear strength of some champions a bit more. This change just means easy pickins for those duelist/gank junglers as they know where you'll be after the first clear to come kill you while you have no health because you already get your face beat in by the jungle. Nautilus, Sejuani, and Evelynn were able to get through that first clear and go heal before entering their red side with a possible confrontation. Now, they're forced to try to fight another camp while already at low health and effectively putting a bullseye on their head. It will get exploited quickly.

What you'll end up with is those junglers clearing their side, backing, clearing another camp, backing, then finishing their clear. That's totally unnecessary when junglers are already XP starved.

RogueWillJan 23, 20151 votes

with sejuani I was using anther path that was much more hp efficient , I would start red side and do golems without smite (just pots and leash) go red and smite it (now I will either have a pot left or none depending on the leahs i had) then i will go grump and smite it and finally blue (if i finished red with an extra pot i can also clear wolves) then I woudl recall for machete upgrade a few pots and i would have some gold leftover. Is not the best route since you actually finish the camps with really low hp (around 100 hp) but since you finish your red side at full hp you have the opportunity to get an early gank if you see the enemy mid overextending.

OnegarionJan 23, 20153 votes

I'm giving Riot a little benefit of the doubt and they are doing this more on the experimentation lines. I've read comments where they say that they sometimes change things to see how they effect things. In this case how much of a change it has by increasing it and seeing how that effects later when they go to finish their items

My hope is that this isn't ever going to live or the jungle will be gated and restricted.

BeersteinJan 23, 20153 votes

JG is lacking variety because there's 160 gold in the rivers that fast clear champs have control over and slower ones don't.

Gank in ProgressJan 23, 20152 votes

100g wont stop me from changing my first item one time, so im ok with this. it actually hurts the ganking junglers more than the farming ones

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 23, 20156 votes

the fore-mentioned junglers have good sustain in the jungle while being able to gank if worse comes to worst.

Pantheon Passive

LeeSin W

JarvanIV W & E having armor

Passive

RekSai Passive

meanwhile guys like these who have improved in the new jungle will be weakened Aatrox Amumu DrMundo Sejuani Gangplank Nautilus Evelynn MonkeyKing

Skia AsteriJan 23, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3pRpPXs,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2015-01-23T16:50:23.353+0000) meanwhile guys like these who have improved in the new jungle will be weakened

Evelynn will be fine in terms of being able to clear, as long as you smite both krugs and red regardless of which side of the jungle you start in and you should easily be able to do four camps if not 5... getting all six is hard though. Avoid Gromp when starting blue side without a leash, and remember than neither blue nor wolves are worth smiting (start wolves).

It is likely though that she will be far easier to counter jungle though and duration on the second buff is wasted if you get it before backing.

TotalJerkJan 23, 20152 votes

I always manage to be healthy enough to get a gank off with Poppy after clearing both buffs, but I use the mastery for the extra 40 gold.

Also Fiddlesticks and Sion can farm without backing for much longer than most champions. I dunno why nobody ever mentions Sion's above average sustain in the new jungle, he CCs camps so hard that they barely have a chance to hurt him.

SquarefighterJan 23, 20151 votes

And that's part of the reason why I main Sion in the jungle. No one ever mentions him tho, they're too complaining about how the meta has shifted away from some of last season's champs.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 23, 20152 votes

Penguin EclipseJan 24, 20152 votes

So no more starting with an upgraded jungle item in Twisted Treeline. Just when the jungle in Twisted was getting interesting for the first time in years.

YOU BEEN WARNEDJan 25, 20151 votes

This is actually very important collateral damage to take care of, TT is completely dominated by a support meta right now and this change would be kicking a dead horse that is jungling in TT.

Penguin EclipseJan 28, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=YOU BEEN WARNED,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3pRpPXs,comment-id=00130000,timestamp=2015-01-25T22:38:58.913+0000)

This is actually very important collateral damage to take care of, TT is completely dominated by a support meta right now and this change would be kicking a dead horse that is jungling in TT.

Yup. No more lv 1 upgraded jungle items. This is just stupid. We were finally able to get some new working strategies and Riot completely took a shit on us.

NorthernDruidJan 24, 20151 votes

If they reduced the cost of the machete to match then I could see this being somewhat sensible. Give more money to buy potions with, meaning more champions have enough sustain to clear enough camps to get their tier 2 item and some extra pots/wards.

And if you manage to figure out a balance where you save some of your starting money to buy the upgrade earlier, then that's good for you and adds more diversity to jungle paths and gank times.

Or maybe they should nix machete and let us have just the smite variant and the enchantment. Just up the cost so that you can't buy any pots with it (without the +40 gold item).

If we need to kill the scuttler to stay relevant though, they better make it easier to kill, 'cause I can think of a lot of champions I don't want to have chasing it up and down the river while exposing myself at half health. Might make early river wards a solid strategy though, since knowing where the crab is and whether there's someone else around could be important early game.

On another note a couple of the survival tips I picked up around the initial changes were

Krugs/Gromp->Razors/Wolves->Red/Blue

should get you an extra smite to use on the buff, and just in general, planning your route properly helps.

Utility masteries are good things to have for junglers because of all the random little things it nets you (in particular the 40 extra gold one, and the gold per 10 masteries should give you an extra pot or two for your first back) If only they come to their senses and make the summoner spell CDR mastery interact with Smite's stack gain.

Not sure how apliccable they are, but I'm certain that the utility tree could be interesting if they fix the sillyness their stacking system got us.

Jesus is SaviorJan 24, 20152 votes

{quoted}

If only they come to their senses and make the summoner spell CDR mastery interact with Smite's stack gain.

I don't think they read the bug report forums unless they get like +100 upvotes.

And considering that most junglers go 21/9/0, and not 21/0/9, I don't think Riot even knows that summoner's insight mastery is broken with smite right now, because the threads only have like 3 upvotes.

It's kinda sad they don't have a proper way to report bugs due to this new reddit style layout.

Spiritflare868Jan 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Krugs/Gromp->Razors/Wolves->Red/Blue

You almost never want to do raptors until youve cleared almost every other jungle canp at least once. With the junglers I prefer to use, I can do a full clear by going krug>wolves>gromp>blue>raptors>red>krugs again. Smiting krug, gromp, and red. At this point I can either gank with about half health, or b with almost 1k gold and gank with my jungle upgrade after.

NorthernDruidJan 24, 20151 votes

Huh, gotta keep that path in mind.

I mainly do the raptors for when I need to smite red. Since the time it takes to clear is enough for my smite to recover from taking Krugs.

It's not that painful to do as second camp if you focus the little ones first.

Spiritflare868Jan 28, 20151 votes

Try doing raptors later in your clear and see how big a difference it makes to your hp. Its just never been very beneficial for me to do it

Liquid DarioJan 25, 20151 votes

ya i agree this idea is RETARDED. I think what riot did was just look at LeeSin and JarvanIV and there like. Well they have enough health to continue to clear the jungle after krugs / red so lets just make it 100 gold more so they are forced to do an extra camp or gank.

Yet every other jungler is at like 30 health after doing the same two camps.

TBH with you I dont ever think riot will touch LeeSin they coddle that champion more than any other champion I know of. They just REFUSE to nerf him or admit any faults in him and actually do something useful to make him weaker.

I kinda agree with some dude I heard on youtube who basically claimed riot's motto is IDGAF when it comes to players. They care in very specific scenarios that make the game look bad but other than that they really couldn't care less about what we think or feel.

PPL have been clamoring about lee for months now and all I see from riot is the IDGAF attitude. Btw wasnt last season run by j4 and lee for a good majority of the time too ? strategic diversity my ***.

What they are doing to mages and assasins is good but it took them a whole season of us yelling at them from the mountain tops for them to finally realise it was a problem. At 1st they were in the IDGAF position. But now that its having a negative impact on their game they decide to finally do something about it.

Players complaints rarely, if ever are heard. if it isnt having a direct impact on the game itself they could care less about our complaints.

Maybe LeeSin will get nerfed NEXT season, when they finally realise hes impacting the game.