You cannot look me straight in the eye and tell me that a champion like say. Annie, has the same “power budget” as someone like say ekko.
Ekko when played to even an acceptable level does EVERYTHING Annie does either just as well as her, or better than her, and then does more.
And no, before anyone says it, this is not a hit piece on ekko as much as I hate him, it’s just pointing out riots insane inconsistency when making champions.
Moody P5 votesekko does not drop an instant stun on anyone near him like Annie does and he takes a little longer to get all of his damage off
Annie is also a much older champion when the game has changed. Shouldn't you take an example of a more modern champion you think is good and compare them to Ekko rather than grabbing an original 40
AccurateYeet1 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-31T23:47:12.117+0000)
Annie is also a much older champion when the game has changed. Shouldn't you take an example of a more modern champion you think is good and compare them to Ekko rather than grabbing an original 40
Well no, it really shouldn't matter how old the champion is. If RIOT was doing their job around that sort of thing effectively the power budget a champion could have should've remained relatively consistent or old champions should've been brought up to the current standard well before now.
Kai Guy1 votesOld power budget had champions on point and click cc with 3 to 4 seconds of hard cc. This would not be healthy. Ram and fid for example are s1 champions and both have had power added to compensate the duration nerds on their cc.
The game shifted to skillshots really early and there are a minority of low floor champions from that era who have remained.
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-08-31T23:47:12.117+0000)
ekko does not drop an instant stun on anyone near him like Annie does and he takes a little longer to get all of his damage off
Annie is also a much older champion when the game has changed. Shouldn't you take an example of a more modern champion you think is good and compare them to Ekko rather than grabbing an original 40
New champion releases power levels should not increase. That causes power creep. Look at any mobile game ever. They want to make money, so if they don’t make EVERY new thing better they won’t make any money from it.
Moody P1 votesIt's a change in design philosophy. League is not the same game it was when it released.
That's what the Annie changes are helping to address; trading some of her raw damage off in exchange for being a MUCH better addition to a team.
Best Valor NA4 votesNewer champions will never be as simple and basic as older champions, such as annie, garen, old ww. So it's kind of hard to balance viability and nnot make newer champions just cast aside older ones, that's why they're generally more complicated to play.
Annie's got basically a point and click ult stun that can easily hit 3+ people, and it fights for you, pretty easy to use.
For Ekko if you want to stun, you need to time your W and plan for a bit to catch them when youre in. And for the damage from ult, you have to plan on your following shadow to be ontop of them, obviously taking more skill than Annies ult/kit.
But in return for being harder to use, you get more out of it.
WalkingInACircle3 votesIts a concept from a different dev lead, Morello, instead of the current one Meddler who places priority on winrates.
musixxal3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=,timestamp=2019-08-31T23:40:30.289+0000)
You cannot look me straight in the eye and tell me that a champion like say. Annie, has the same “power budget” as someone like say ekko.
Ekko when played to even an acceptable level does EVERYTHING Annie does either just as well as her, or better than her, and then does more.
And no, before anyone says it, this is not a hit piece on ekko as much as I hate him, it’s just pointing out riots insane inconsistency when making champions.
point and click stun Annie. stop it you don't know what you're talking about
Darkdemon6532 votesChampion X being stronger than champion Y doesn't mean there isn't a budget.
The thigh guy2 votesChampion X being stronger than champion Y doesn't mean there isn't a budget.
No. The fact that he does EVERYTHING she does but better it what shows power budget is a lie.
boricCentaur12 votesUmmm you are just flat out wrong. Annie does stuff better then ekko and ekko does stuff better then annie, You are comparing a burst mage to assassin, Like why not compare two champions in the same fucking class.
ekko has worst engage, less damage in team fights, can't peel for his team, less poke, I can keep going.
Power budget is not a lie, for annie to get a good size buff they have to take out power in her kit because of how much it has, that is why they are changing her next patch and not just flat out buffing her.
The thigh guy2 votesUmmm you are just flat out wrong. Annie does stuff better then ekko and ekko does stuff better then annie, You are comparing a burst mage to assassin, Like why not compare two champions in the same fucking class.
ekko has worst engage, less damage in team fights, can't peel for his team, less poke, I can keep going.
Power budget is not a lie, for annie to get a good size buff they have to take out power in her kit because of how much it has, that is why they are changing her next patch and not just flat out buffing her.
You sir are wrong. Ekko has a larger ape stun for a better engage. Has a aoe slow for peeling and more damage without question.
boricCentaur12 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-01T02:43:58.174+0000)
You sir are wrong. Ekko has a larger ape stun for a better engage. Has a aoe slow for peeling and more damage without question.
Yeah no. People can easily avoid ekko stun, and no he does have less damage then annie since she has much more aoe meaning she will always do more. Slows sucks vs a point and click stun like WHAT? annie can support for a reason.
Ekko is a single target champion he will rarely hit any more the one person with his stun, let alone to damage to a team with his kit.
Like guy you are just saying shit without any thought. AGAIN YOU ARE COMPARING A BURST MAGE TO A ASSASSIN you just lost the argument.
The thigh guy1 votesYeah no. People can easily avoid ekko stun, and no he does have less damage then annie since she has much more aoe meaning she will always do more. Slows sucks vs a point and click stun like WHAT? annie can support for a reason.
Ekko is a single target champion he will rarely hit any more the one person with his stun, let alone to damage to a team with his kit.
Like guy you are just saying shit without any thought. AGAIN YOU ARE COMPARING A BURST MAGE TO A ASSASSIN you just lost the argument.
I’m comparing a MIDLANER to another MIDLANER. But w/e. You don’t like anything that isn’t “har har har bruiser under powered har har har”
boricCentaur12 votesAnd you gave up your argument love it since you have no counter point meaning I am right.
Also no when talking about power you have to compare it to other champions in that class. Assassins play and need different things in there kits vs bust mages,tanks or any other class.
Divers have more mobility then juggernauts does that mean they have a bigger power budget NO, it means they play differently.
Also my most played classes are mages and tanks especially in ranked.
The thigh guy1 votesAnd you gave up your argument love it since you have no counter point meaning I am right.
Also no when talking about power you have to compare it to other champions in that class. Assassins play and need different things in there kits vs bust mages,tanks or any other class.
Divers have more mobility then juggernauts does that mean they have a bigger power budget NO, it means they play differently.
Also my most played classes are mages and tanks especially in ranked.
Except no you don’t. EVERY class is suppose to have an equal power budget for balancing reasons. If one has more then that class is the default best class in game. But okay dude fine.
Annie compares to Zoe. Zoe again. Does EVERYTHING Annie does. But better and from longer range.
boricCentaur13 votesGuy just stop you have been proven wrong and also you have done 0 thinking.
Zoe doesn't do everything annie does, like you are actually trolling? AGAIN THEY ARE PICKED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. Zoe has no engage, no aoe cc, weaker cc, is less safe.
How about you actually try to prove your point instead of saying bs like zoe or ekko does everything better WHEN YOU HAVE NO PROOF.
The thigh guy1 votesGuy just stop you have been proven wrong and also you have done 0 thinking.
Zoe doesn't do everything annie does, like you are actually trolling? AGAIN THEY ARE PICKED FOR DIFFERENT THINGS. Zoe has no engage, no aoe cc, weaker cc, is less safe.
How about you actually try to prove your point instead of saying bs like zoe or ekko does everything better WHEN YOU HAVE NO PROOF.
You haven’t “proven” anything. You’ve done nothing but spew falsities.
boricCentaur13 votes"Zoe has no engage, no aoe cc, weaker cc, is less safe." "Ekko is a single target champion he will rarely hit any more the one person with his stun, let alone to damage to a team with his kit."
All that is proof and I have much more.
Like yeah fuck off. You are just wrong you don't have a argument you can't support ANY OF YOUR CLAIMS. Like I have proven everyone of my points unlike you.
musixxal3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=00080000,timestamp=2019-09-01T02:43:58.174+0000)
You sir are wrong. Ekko has a larger ape stun for a better engage. Has a aoe slow for peeling and more damage without question.
he has to aim that slow/stun 3 (THREE) seconds in advance what are you talking about annie get's to point and click tibbers in an area, he comes out instantly and can stun a whole team. i hate that people like you with 0 (zero) understanding are making threads discussing balance.
Xavanic2 votesI see these posts and honestly, EVERY CHAMP SHOULD HAVE THE SAME BUDGET, this is how you balance a game, every champ having the same budget and budgeting for things such as mobility, difficulty to play, damage, utility, unfortunately riot does not do this anymore, this is why someone facerolly like kayn does more dmg then someone skill reliant like nidalee, riot doesn;t care about balancing the game anymore, they care about keeping certain champs stronger then others to keep making money off skins, this is why ahri got another fucking skin, even though ahri seriously needs nerfs, they won't nerf her, because her skins bring in the big bucks due to all the teens having a hard on for her due to the weird asf animal girl hype, meanwhile other champs like zoe are kept on the weaker end since people love to hate her, anyone who believes riot is balancing the game properly anymore is out of their minds and needs to seek psychiatric help, it's all about selling the skins now a days
Kai Guy2 votesReliability is part of that budget. Lower reliability and thus lower best cases are week-ish picks when the same best case is equivalent on a low complexity.
This has a smaller hit box a longer delay a visual tell and warning. Thats part of a budget.
The game is not ever going to be equal results from kits becuase that's not how games with individual kits function. Its made to have an ever shifting meta for replay value.
Xavanic1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=00090000,timestamp=2019-09-01T03:42:45.356+0000)
Reliability is part of that budget. Lower reliability and thus lower best cases are week-ish picks when the same best case is equivalent on a low complexity.
This has a smaller hit box a longer delay a visual tell and warning. Thats part of a budget.
The game is not ever going to be equal results from kits becuase that's not how games with individual kits function. Its made to have an ever shifting meta for replay value.
See this is why i believe power budget is no longer considered when they make champs, you get a champ like zoe who can do decent damage but has one of the most unreliable small hitboxes in the game for that dmg, then you get sylas, who just outright has a 1.0 ap ratio on his Q on top of having actual damage on the rest of his abilites and MOBILITY, AND A SHIELD, and having access to any ult on the enemy team, some being rather broken
Mordepool2 votesI mean why downvotes? OP is right.
Pika Fox2 votesExcept ekko does literally nothing annie does and vice versa.....
One is a burst mage, the other is a diver.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2019-09-01T04:48:24.716+0000)
Except ekko does literally nothing annie does and vice versa.....
One is a burst mage, the other is a diver.
They are both heavy burst mages with aoe cc. But w/e. Just throw random tags on everything. Because Darius isn’t a juggernaut. He’s a aoe burst fighter taco cook.
Pika Fox2 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e0000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:00:04.186+0000)
They are both heavy burst mages with aoe cc. But w/e. Just throw random tags on everything. Because Darius isn’t a juggernaut. He’s a aoe burst fighter taco cook.
Ekkos not a burst mage. He has no burst, and he has a powerful escape ult as well as a massive shield. Hes meant to go under towers, juggle agro and get out.
The thigh guy2 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e00000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:11:08.585+0000)
Ekkos not a burst mage. He has no burst, and he has a powerful escape ult as well as a massive shield. Hes meant to go under towers, juggle agro and get out.
If you are about to sit and argue that ekko has no burst then man. Idk what to tell you. You can argue it I guess? But you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
Pika Fox2 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:31:32.115+0000)
If you are about to sit and argue that ekko has no burst then man. Idk what to tell you. You can argue it I guess? But you’re so wrong it’s not even funny.
Unless he gets to ult offensively, he really doesnt unless hes exceptionally far ahead just due to his passive holding a lot of his damage and being a 3 proc.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e0000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:35:25.102+0000)
Unless he gets to ult offensively, he really doesnt unless hes exceptionally far ahead just due to his passive holding a lot of his damage and being a 3 proc.
Q apples his passive E applies his passive.
I’m going to say 40 ap.
At level 5 with 40 ap he has a burst of 361.
With 2 abilities.
That’s with 40 ap.
Pika Fox1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:45:45.022+0000)
Q apples his passive E applies his passive.
I’m going to say 40 ap.
At level 5 with 40 ap he has a burst of 361.
With 2 abilities.
That’s with 40 ap.
Thats one full passive proc. You need more than that to kill, and all your abilities are on CD.
Unless youre fed, q and e alone wont kill. Hes not a burst mage.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:49:36.175+0000)
Thats one full passive proc. You need more than that to kill, and all your abilities are on CD.
Unless youre fed, q and e alone wont kill. Hes not a burst mage.
There is no burst mage in the game 100-0 people without being fed
Pika Fox3 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e0000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T05:58:10.044+0000)
There is no burst mage in the game 100-0 people without being fed
Annie, syndra, brand... The list goes on.
All of them can 100-0 you as long as you are squishy (their prime targets are) and they arent behind. Thats the definition of a burst mage.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Pika Fox,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T14:40:30.390+0000)
Annie, syndra, brand... The list goes on.
All of them can 100-0 you as long as you are squishy (their prime targets are) and they arent behind. Thats the definition of a burst mage.
Except no. They don’t. They have to poke you down to maybe 60% if they aren’t fed out their asses then kill you.
Pika Fox1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=000e000000000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-09-01T17:46:03.758+0000)
Except no. They don’t. They have to poke you down to maybe 60% if they aren’t fed out their asses then kill you.
Lolno.
If you have no MR or tank abilities, QWER Ignite will kill. Hell, syndra can kill with JUST QR if she has all her balls out.
Ekko doesnt have access to a good offensive ult, so a lot of his damage is unable to be used unless the enemy mispositions severely.
Tr4shB4NSYST3M2 votesIf you had said Sylas Or Quiyana I would've agreed with you more so, but ekko is actually IMO an example of a well designed kit with a lot in it.
The thigh guy2 votesIf you had said Sylas Or Quiyana I would've agreed with you more so, but ekko is actually IMO an example of a well designed kit with a lot in it.
Ekko is when riot decided “let’s just jam 9 different things into each champions abilities because reasons.”~~~~
Metal Janna1 votesIf we're talking personal combat power then it's obvious champions like Zed and Orianna have vastly different sized power budgets... But if we add "usefulness in a teamfight" to our budget considerations then they actually don't.
All champions are balanced to have nearly 50% Win Rate, so champions like Zed whose kit is less useful in a teamfight tend to get absolutely overloaded with damage and mobility to the point that they can one combo squishies without using their ults... this is unavoidable so long as Riot's balance team wants non-teamwork-oriented champions to be on even footing (winrate-wise) with teamwork-oriented champs. This is also why Qiyana has far less damage than a typical assassin - if she had just as much then her WR would be sky high due to the large amount of teamfight utility her ult brings.
IMO the assassin playstyle is a selfish one that has more place in battle royale solos than a teamwork game like League of Legends... but I can see why Riot would cater to it from a business perspective. A broader player base means healthier queues and fatter paychecks.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Metal Janna,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2019-09-01T00:35:24.389+0000)
If we're talking personal combat power then it's obvious champions like Zed and Orianna have vastly different sized power budgets... But if we add "usefulness in a teamfight" to our budget considerations then they actually don't.
All champions are balanced to have nearly 50% Win Rate, so champions like Zed whose kit is less useful in a teamfight tend to get absolutely overloaded with damage and mobility to the point that they can one combo squishies without using their ults... this is unavoidable so long as Riot's balance team wants non-teamwork-oriented champions to be on even footing (winrate-wise) with teamwork-oriented champs. This is also why Qiyana has far less damage than a typical assassin - if she had just as much then her WR would be sky high due to the large amount of teamfight utility her ult brings.
IMO the assassin playstyle is a selfish one that has more place in battle royale solos than a teamwork game like League of Legends... but I can see why Riot would cater to it from a business perspective. A broader player base means healthier queues and fatter paychecks.
That’s why I compared two champions who are entirely combat oriented.
There is nothing Annie does better than ekko.
Metal Janna1 votes[{quoted}](name=The thigh guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-09-01T01:18:20.736+0000)
That’s why I compared two champions who are entirely combat oriented.
There is nothing Annie does better than ekko.
Gets her burst off faster in 1v1s and teamfight engages more reliably.
Kai Guy1 votesAnnie is less difficult to play at an acceptable level thou. And the values set are all arbitrary and subject to the whims of a developer.
I dont think riot does skips out on useing internal metrics for balance but if those values fluctuate it would be my expectation rather then a surprise.
The thigh guy1 votes[{quoted}](name=Kai Guy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=h3Jj5XXz,comment-id=0006,timestamp=2019-09-01T00:37:28.728+0000)
Annie is less difficult to play at an acceptable level thou. And the values set are all arbitrary and subject to the whims of a developer.
I dont think riot does skips out on useing internal metrics for balance but if those values fluctuate it would be my expectation rather then a surprise.
Except riot has made it very clear that difficulty does not equate to power. Examples being Elise. Lee sin. Azir. Kalista.
Kai Guy2 votesBy all means provide the Riot quote to support this.
Otherwise if its just an opinion just be clear on that. Then lets get on the same page. List the complexity/difficulty of the champions and whats relevant for their power. If you think they are strong or weak.
MagicFlyingLlama1 votesEkko does not instantly stun and 100-0 anything squishier than malphite. At lv6.
Power budget is a totally valid concept, and it tends to balance within a champion's kit, not vs other champions. If they have one really strong ability, their others need to be weaker; a huge simplification.
Kai Guy1 votes
MagicFlyingLlama1 votes[sg-lux-2]
Kai Guy1 votesIf they have one really strong ability, their others need to be weaker; a huge simplification.
Blitz has a massive amount of his power budgeted into his Q and the rest of the kit is weaker because of that. Sorry, was on my phone and failed to quote the relevant bit.
MagicFlyingLlama1 votesTIL blitz has multiple abilities
