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I Find Tryndamere's kit extremely toxic

Diananmen Square··5 votes·1,667 views

First and foremost, please don't judge me from my ELO. I know I'm low ELO, but that does not make my argument in any way, shape or form unreasonable and unreliable.

Second, this is mostly a personal oppinion on MY ideas, so feel free to disagree if you want.

Ok, so.. Tryndamere.

I play against one every now and then and a lot of things bother me..

First, his base stats.

I was playing a match as Rengar in the late game (All level 18) and something bothered me so much that I even went to do my research: His insane amount of health.

Here are his base stats at level 18:

Health: 2292 AD: 116 Attack Speed: 0.67 + 49.3% Armor: 76.8 MR: 53.4 MS: 345

Ok, something looks weird to me here.

Why the bloody hell does he have 2300 HP at level 18? Just why? His main purpose is to be a "melee ADC" , yet he has this insanely high base health? For example, take Thresh . His base HP at level 18 is 2013, and he is a Tank-Support. To me , that doesn't make any sense.

Second of all, I want to talk about his Q and W.

His Q grants him flat AD + AD based on missing health + an active heal, which is nice for some lane sustain. That skill to me is balanced and should remain as it is.

My problem is that mixed with his W.

His W removes from 20 to 80 AD from all nearby enemies, and slows those who are with their backs turned for 4 seconds.

Four freaking seconds. I mean.. come on.. It barely has a cast time. You can't actually "counter" the slow and turn around as he is casting it, as you kind of can with Cassiopeia 's ultimate.

Now about his E.

It's good to have mobility to go in or go out, but the fact that it's passive is there is plain dumb. (Every critical hit reduces the cooldown of the skill by 1 second, DOUBLED against champions).

For it's somewhat low cooldown (13/12/11/10/9 seconds), does it really need a cooldown reduction mechanic? It is just plain stupid that he spins to you, crits you a bit, kills you in 3 hits if you're a squishy then guess what, he has his E back up again, after like 2-3 seconds.

But now about his R.

This skill is what makes Tryndamere so toxic. All he does through the game is splitpush , and if someone dares to go to try and defend the tower, he'll just tower dive you and ult and it's like nothing happened. Then he just repeats it 1 minute later.

I believe he really needs a rework, or some tweaks around his kit. He's the definition of "unfun to play against" as far as I'm concerned.

24 Comments

Worldferno5 votes

I don't take your arguments with a grain of salt because of your ELO. I take your arguments with a grain of salt because of your lack of Tryndamere. I've played hundreds of games with Tryndamere. I've played him mid, I've played him top, I've played him jungle, I've played him support. I've played him AD, I've played him AP, I've played him bruiser, I've played him tank. The only way I've never played him is as a marksman; not even I'm that crazy.

I have scratched out wins, I have punished mistakes, I've mastered timings, learned windows of vulnerability, and I have dominated games. But along with all of that I have had my ass handed to me in every possible way you can hand a tryndamere his ass. I have lived his weaknesses and his strengths and I have a damn good understanding of what it is that makes Tryndamere strong, and what it is that makes Tryndamere weak.

So... when you take a cursory look over his abilities on lolking and then rattle them off with a tone of outrage as if that in itself makes an argument... yes I will take them less seriously. That does not mean I disregard them entirely however. So let's go down the line.

Tryndamere's base health is "high" (200 health is a miniscule difference at level 18 when most people are hitting for 500 on all their abilities) because the only way he can be effective is to build damage. He doesn't have CC. He can't force a team to look at him the way Thresh can. The only way a tryndamere can get a team to stop looking at his carries and deal with him is by being a BIGGER THREAT. He isn't allowed to build health if he wants to be effective. The only way he can be succesful being tankey instead of damagey is if he uses the synergy between armor, AP, and his Q ratio because at least that way he'll still have some noticeable damage on his E.

Second point, his W. Yes his W removes AD. It's one of his major trading tools. When your only sources of damage are autos (some of those auto's get pretty damn mean I will admit) and a 12 second cd spell which doubles as your only escape tool you need SOME way to deal with quick trades. The way you ruin Tryndamere's day? Get in when he's used q to heal and his rage is at 0, punch him once, withdraw when he punches you and gets minion aggro, and then sit back and profit. If you duel with him he WILL fuck you up because extended dueling is what he is made to do. As for the slow (which admittedly you need an unreasonably high level of champion specific knowledge to dodge effectively) it is his major chasing tool. It's also one with a stupidly long cd. W allows him to increase his threat range so that he has some answer to ranged champions. You have to blow your E just to get close to them, but once you're there what do you do? Hit them once get cc'd and then cry because you have no way of getting back in range to do damage? Tryndamere has no way outside of his W to stick to champions. W is necessary so that everyone in the game can't just toss out a single slow when you e in and then walk away without any fear of you ever catching up to them.

Third point his E. Yes it gets it's cooldown reduced but that's only if you're fighting. Spin in, W, R when low, Spin out/to next target is his major play-pattern. The CD reduction functionality is a reward for effectively doing your job that also gives him an out so that he isn't just a free kill whenever he engages.

Finally his ult. Oh his ult. I see what you're trying to get at with his split-pushing but that's just not how it works. If tryndamere's massively fed or you're low and trying to defend a tower a.k.a. a bad idea when dealing with any champion at all, then yes he'll kill you and walk on his merry way, but almost any champ in the game (barring the marksman) should be able to fight a tryndamere under tower. He's squishy as can be and needs to be autoing you to do his damage. This only becomes even more egregious an argument if you're talking about defending inhibitor towers. You know that nice slow the inhibitor towers give you? Use it. It's free CC and guess what tryndamere's biggest weakness is? Honestly to deal with split-pushing in general you know what you do? You get WARDS. You ward your jungle's entry points so that you can always see when tryndamere is on his way to go split-push and force a 4v5 while you know he's halfway across the map but before he's actually knocking on your door.

There are two answers to dealing with tryndamere. Learn the champion and figure out his weak points or just get better at the game. Tryndamere preforms worse and worse the higher up in ELO you get because people know how to coordinate, they know how to kite, they know how ward the map, and in general have the game sense that lets them punish tryndamere so hard for his gaping weak-points that he's considered darn near unplayable.

TLDR: Git gud

Old Man Teeto1 votes

Curiosity... did you max W as support Tryndamere?

Also Face of the Mountain -> Statikk Shiv?

Worldferno1 votes

{quoted}

Curiosity... did you max W as support Tryndamere?

Also Face of the Mountain -> Statikk Shiv?

I would open targons (never bothered upping it to face until late, it gives an extra charge and a passive that I don't really need due to ult). Targon's was really nice because aside from the sustain, health, and regen, it also allows you to keep your rage up without pushing lane too hard. The ability that I maxed would honestly vary. If I was in a lane I could roll over I actually maxed E-Q-W to get extra burst during trades. If I needed sustain I'd go Q-E-W. If I felt they would try skirmishing us constantly I'd go W-Q-E so that we'd guaranteed win any trades.

Second item was normally shiv. Sometimes I'd get lucky and we'd roll over lane and I'd rush a cutlass for the slow to secure future kills and then go shiv before going back to finish BOTRK.

Note: This stops working around Silver 2/Silver 1. I caution anyone who would seek to try it past that point.

Second Note: You also have to be buying wards throughout the game. I did this pre yellow-trinket buff, so that's something nice future support tryndamere's can fall back on.

Diananmen Square1 votes

I've tried loads of different strategies, trust me.

I've tried kiting on ADC's with mobility (Mainly Lucian) and nop, he still gets to me , hits me twice and I die. Tried Vel'Koz, a natural kiter, do EWQW combo, he still gets to me and 2-3 shots me. It's no use. And If I managed to actually kite him enough to get him low and my teammates are coming to help, he just pops his ultimate and kills two of my teammates before I can do anything.

I could Ignite him, yes I could, but it might be on cooldown or I might be taking my heal. I could CC him, but another high-priority target could be coming (Let's say, a Zed), and I need that sliver of CC I have to defend myself from Zed. My teammates could CC him, but he lives too long to be permanently locked down.

I've tried hard CC, but it's almost impossible if they have an assassin and a Tryndamere on the same team. You CC one, the other one wrecks you completely either ways.

Also, saying "CC counters Tryndamere" isn't very valid, as CC counters every champion (Except maybe Irelia).

I make my effort to buy my share of wards, upgrade my trinket as soon as I can, but it doesn't seem enough. Either top laner forgot to call SS, or if I am the top laner and do call it, sometimes my teammates don't pay attention and feed my lane a kill.

And when I'm jungling (90% of the time as Rengar), I go into my ultimate to get a 1-shot on their ADC or APC and use the movement speed bonus to get away, but he just W's and I eventually die.

Worldferno1 votes

Tryndamere is SUPPOSED to catch up to you and kill you one v one (especially if you're an adc who are purposely designed with more limited mobility). It's the reason his W is there. When I say kite him I'm talking about team-fights. Second off "CC counters everybody" is a false argument. STUNS counter everybody. Most people can shake off a slow and still do their job. Tryndamere can't. If you're support is squishy have them grab either talisman OR claim and tryndamere will never be able to do anything. If they're tanky have em grab rands. Now not only can your support go head to head with trynd without exploding in seconds but they can also use the active right after his E to keep him from getting in AA range. Seriously man. Janna, Thresh, Nunu, Lulu, Braum, to a slight extend but not quite as well Taric. All supports who can SINGLEhandedly keep tryndamere from closing the distance and doing his job. Hell thresh does it with ease. Flay trynd mid spin and spam laugh. You don't even need to use Q or the box.

I straight up don't believe you were kiting effectively as velkoz and still getting caught. Tryndamere comes spinning in? You drop E (knockups interrupt tryndamere's spin and leave him shit out of luck). He w's you. You q and slow him right back. Sure his lasts 2 seconds longer but even at max level it's weaker than yours if you have a single point in it. The only way a tryndamere should be able to stay on a velkoz succesfully is if he comes out of fog of war and is directly on him before he starts getting cc'd. Even then it's a bitch to stick to velk without Bork active or Ghost.

Oh and fuck ignite. Don't talk to me about ignite. "Oh it's tryndamere I'll take ignite so that when he ults I can ignite him and get a kill." Exhaust is SO much more of a hard counter. Literally the only thing an exhausted trynd can do is go "Hmm.. welp I'm useless this fight, but at least next fight exhaust will be down."

Note that I'm not saying Tryndamere doesn't have toxic aspects to his kit that should be dealt with. Lanes are often won or lost in the hands of RNJesus and that needs changing. Tryndamere is a pain in the ass to win lane against if you're melee, but winning the game against him? That's as easy as playing smart and itemizing correctly.

Diananmen Square1 votes

Vel'Koz's slow decays, tryndamere's doesn't. That is a lot of difference, trust me.

And his E is too fast for me to actually stop it mid-cast. If Vel and Trynd both start casting their E's, by the time Vel's E is exploding , Trynd's E is finished. Also, Trynd's E is unpredictable.

Cosnirak1 votes

"Also, Trynd's E is unpredictable."

Actually just the opposite. It's highly predictable, especially at lower ranks. He's going to E to get in range to slow you or to get in range to auto attack you.

When kiting any champion you have to take into account their gap closers, including their slows. Kiting Tryndamere requires taking into account his E and his W and even his R.

I do agree with you somewhat that his overall playstyle is a little problematic in terms of fun, even for his own team. But you really should try playing as him some, you will learn how to beat him very well.

Diananmen Square1 votes

You know he is going to use it, you just don't know exactly WHEN he has it up or when he will use it.

Cosnirak1 votes

"He's going to E to get in range to slow you or to get in range to auto attack you." <- Learn that distance.

Look up the cooldown if you want the exact seconds. It's pretty short so most of the time you can just assume it's up unless you just saw him use it.

Irelia Bot1 votes

If you were complaining about his triple crits at level 2 making him win lane easily when they happen I would be agreeing with you on him being a BS champ.

But we agree he has some issues just not on what the issues are.

Diananmen Square1 votes

I forgot about that too.

BluePolarizer1 votes

being low elo means that you may lack the knowledge to formulate an argument.

would you say "I know I'm a high school dropout, but that makes my opinion just as valid as a PHD engineer's about rocket science" ?

Demonsolder211 votes

Please... As long as you are educated enough to formulate a argument then by all means its valid.

Kerrigan 4 Prez1 votes

Might I ask, what champs have you played against Tryndamere?

Diananmen Square1 votes

A lot. Trust me.

Loads of ADC's , Junglers and even tanky top laners.

Rushing thornmail didn't help at all. I rushed thornmail/frozen heart on stuff like Vi , Maokai and Nasus and sure enough, he's still critting me for 500 damage..

ChargeItDownMid1 votes

[deleted]

Diananmen Square1 votes

I feel like Frozen Heart might be better, as it doesn't actually depend on him attacking you. Does it work as well, or is Rand's better because of the health?

Cosnirak1 votes

Randiun's is better because of its active ability. Often the best way to deal with Tryndamere is to kite him and clear minions. Let the turret shots keep him back.

Kerrigan 4 Prez1 votes

I meant some specific examples.

Diananmen Square1 votes

Lucian, Rengar, Vi, Nasus, Irelia and so forth.

I either went for Thornmail as my defensive item on ADC's, or went straight for Thornmail / Frozen Heart on tankier top laners and junglers.

Old Man Teeto1 votes

My only complaint against Tryndamere is both "for and against" in that his innate crit is infuriating to play against and with.

Particularly since you get more rage for critting, meaning if you get one in your first couple auto's you tend to snowball that AA trade, but if you don't you ramp up slower.

Would love to see what they could do with a rework on him similar to Ashe.

Troy2426211 votes

The biggest reason I dislike Tryndamere can be summed up in a single acronym. RNG.

Beddlam1 votes

He's awful, but he's had basically the same kit for 5 years, so I don't see anything changing.

Omiwom1 votes

What's frustrating about Trynd is that you can't leave him alone for 30 seconds or he eats two of your towers. This means he punishes you SUPER hard for dying 1v1, or for going to interact with the other 8 players in the game. Other champs do this, but Trynd is probably the most relentless, unforgiving split pusher in the game.

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