I'll be 100% honest here, I personally think CertainlyT's creativity and imagination is awesome.

Lao Fu the Tiger·Aug 11, 2015·164 votes·7,321 views

CertainlyT gets a champion to work on.

Said champion's kit is entirely unique, very thematic, includes many levers on which to balance the champion (although they may not be often used by the balance squad).

Each champion is super fun to play as.

Each champion DOES have measures of counterplay (whether by itemization or champion select).

Where is all the hate coming from? Okay, okay, YES. I CONCEDE. His champions may come out really powerful on release. Thresh, Darius, and Yasuo were crazy strong...... as was Azir, Kassadin, Leblonk, Xin Xiao, etc, but...we're talking CT here.

Most of his champions have a high skill cap. No, this does NOT mean they should be inherently more powerful than other champions. But I'm willing to argue that at least 1/2 the time, the complaints about CertainlyT's champions aren't about them being "OP," but as a refusal by the playerbase to even try to do anything about them.

His creativity and imagination are phenomenal. His champions may have a lot going on in them, but the guy honestly is a genius when it comes to ideas. Furthermore, all of his champions have TONS of levers to be balanced upon; after release, it's up to the Balance Team to handle making sure they come out in a fair manner. There is a reason, after all, why he's part of ChampUp and the Design team rather than the balance squad.

Give the guy some respect. He doesn't deserve all your hate.

You know what doesn't help him when talking about Mordekaiser (or any other champion)?

"Undo everything."
"This idea sucks period."
"God he's going to be so underpowered."
"gg you killed Mord forever."
"Why is he working here again?"
"Fire CT 2016"

And then after you guys make these comments, you make even MORE comments along the lines of...

"CertainlyT ignores us."
"He doesn't listen."
"He has his fingers in his ears screaming 'lalala'."

I honestly don't blame him for not replying to 85% of the crap people put him through. Do not make a claim that "This is simply a result of his behaviour" or "He is getting what he deserves."

NOBODY deserves to be treated with disrespect, no matter how poorly they do their job. Nobody. There is absolutely zero reason for you to take pot-shots (basically demeaning him as a person) at him or any other person for any reason, period.

As an avid Mordekaiser player, I have faith in you, CT, and I trust your judgment, even though at first glance I may question it. And I have faith that Riot will do their best to make Morde awesome for the community in the long run.

240 Comments

Troy242621Aug 11, 201583 votes

I don't hate CertainlyT as a person, but I greatly dislike his designer tendencies. He:

Ignores player feedback
Makes the same mistakes in every design
Values "it's fun to play" over "It's healthy for the game and isn't horrible to play against"
Overloads kits with things they don't need
Doesn't sufficiently consider counterplay when making designs (Goes back to being overloaded; he gives them every tool they could possibly want to work around their weaknesses)

ElJanitorFrankAug 11, 20155 votes

Can you give some examples?

Trash ADC BtwAug 12, 201535 votes

Certainly. Yasuo has unlimited short range dashes. Do you know who only had two short range dashes because it made her too sticky/able to escape before her rework? Fiora. Do you know who got that number taken down to one after her rework? Fiora. Yasuo, in a lane with enemy minions pushed cannot be caught. He cannot be hit with a skillshot at a semi-decent distance and even worse, on any kind of chase whatsoever he generates his resource, flow, which gives him automatic kiting potential since he has huge, fast skillshots, no mana consumption, and a regenerating shield that only requires him to keep moving, which with nigh-unlimited dashing is never a problem.

Thresh was designed from the ground up in concept, by CertainlyT's own admission to be a character that was "good in any role in any position". He was supposed to be a top, mid, marksman, support, tank, jungler. That design is in and of itself inherently unhealthy, since the ability to play one-role usually comes with its own weaknesses that need to be compensated for. With Thresh on release and even to this day, the weaknesses he has are usually fairly easy to prevent from being a problem, even having been heavily nerfed, his design still lacks in the counterplay department.

As for Ignored Player Feedback, one of the first questions he was asked on the Mordekaiser rework was "How are we going to avoid being kited in bot-lane?" to which he replied, "Find a teammate to help you". This is completely ignoring the question. In treating the question like it was going to be Mordekaiser and a support vs. a Solo bot lane, he completely and rather arrogantly dismissed the inherent problem with what he is saying, "How is your support supposed to outplay the range and CC of the enemy support and ranged marksman, who quite probably have double the CC of your own support?"

As you can see, there are some major, recurring issues with his designs, especially in the counterplay department, especially on release. As you can also see, he ignores crucial questions about what's coming up, and while I've only given you one example here, the pattern holds through at least as far back as the concerned questions he was getting at Yasuo's release. I've checked back a long way in the history of his replies and the pattern is quite solid.

ElJanitorFrankAug 12, 201516 votes

Thanks for replying with the examples, I appreciate it.

Going to have to disagree as far as Yasuo is concerned. He had everything you stated back when he was considered overpowered, and now that he is considered balanced, all of those characteristics exist (and are all easy to play against, as it happens, because of how specific they are).

I think Thresh has an overloaded kit, definitely, but it DOES have counter play. It's the age-old "dodge the hook" counterplay, which is extremely lazy design I grant, but if you can manage that all he can do it peel. It takes a combination of his skills that make him extremely versatile, you take one thing out and he loses the ability to do multiple things.

I don't follow Riot extensively, so ignoring player feedback isn't something I'm that aware of, however the example makes little sense to me. Players asked "How are we going to avoid being kited in bot-lane?" which is Mordekaiser's 1 weakness. He is INTENDED to be kited around for counter play; if he were to catch you, you would likely die. That just sounds like players trying to find flaws in his kit designs, not really ASKING a question. As for how it will pan out, I don't want to comment on morde until he is played extensively on live; judging something before you know how it works is dumb to me.

And again with Yasuo, he was quite balanced on release. He had an atrocious win rate because he was one of the most complex champions created up to that point and no one had learned how to effectively play him; the outcries you are describing were to buff Yasuo. And as it turns out, they did what the community asked, and paid for it multiple patches.

Trash ADC BtwAug 12, 201528 votes

My pleasure. Always important to actually respond to criticisms of your points. If this guy wasn't gonna, I certainly would.

Yasuo is still considered terrible to play against by the majority of the player-base from what I can tell. Most people were very happy when he was disabled a little while back, because while he may be fun to play WITH, and he may have SOME counterplay now, he still is extremely anti-fun. I can safely say from my own experience it's far more fun when Yasuo's not in the game, allied or enemy, and this is coming from a tank-main, who should love being able to protect a squishy like Yasuo.

Let me explain the problem with the "dodge the hook" counterplay. That's only defensive counterplay. When you try to attack into a thresh, he has an easy escape and kiting tool in Flay. You chase them, you get hit with flay, knocked back, slowed and generally lose the trade. You get hit with flay, good luck dodging the hook. You get hit with the hook, you're in the box. There's no way around it barring flash or a dash, which a good number of ADCs and ESPECIALLY supports don't have. It's important to remember that when a character has counterplay, it means they can be meaningfully attacked and defended against, NOT one or the other.

The problem is that the Mordekaiser rework is intent on shoving him exclusively into Botlane, since he's not allowed to use his W on anything but an allied champion. Not even a minion, anymore. While in botlane, you are going to be subject to kiting as Mordekaiser. As such, it's an important concern how that's not going to be an impossible scenario to play into. See the above "Flay" example. Mordekaiser has no tools for attacking into a lot of support/marksmen combos, and due to that, he's completely reliant on the ability of his own support to outplay TWO players at once, with him being completely unable to contribute anything to assist. Morde cannot safely farm, because he's melee in a ranged lane. Morde cannot safely defend turret, because he's melee in a ranged lane. Morde cannot safely approach, because he's melee in a CC lane, and Morde cannot rely on his support to out-CC the enemy, because he cannot provide anything to match the mobility, range or CC of any marksmen. That is the question. That is what CertainlyT ignored.

All champions have atrocious win-rates or free-elo win-rates on release. Yasuo's KIT is the problem. Once a sufficient amount of skill has been obtained with Yasuo, he's almost impossible to play into with a HUGE selection of champions. Try landing anything with Xerath. Try landing anything with Viktor.

Rew711Aug 12, 20154 votes

Let me take a turn at this...

Yasuo is not the easiest to face off against, especially if the opponent knows what they are doing and also just gets the usual critical and armor pen items that everyone agrees need to be nerfed because of the little counter play they had, have, and now can inflict with the armor item nerfs. His ultimate and Fiora's are different. Fiora could just point and click to deal Master Yi type damage to multiple enemies dealing tons of damage while also being able to take no damage for a longer period than Yasuo. True, as it is when a lot of champs now have knock-ups (as does Yasuo) but his ultimate has its drawback that it must have enemies in the air and in Yasuo's range to activate it. Then, there's the damage. When you focus on critical damage, you aren't able to even get a lot of AD. (This is also a reason I wish they'd just try and find a better Yasuo passive.) Even with 150% AD, you might only get up to 300 bonus damage (maybe at most 400) and with the base damage its just 800 at best. It takes a lot to get someone up in the air. I've also found that champs like Anivia or other mages have the best effect on him because they can bypass his windwall easily and inflict tons of damage from a good range.

Thresh (to me) is far better than a in bot lane. (And don't tell me otherwise.) His Q is more fair than Blitzcranks Q. Blitzcranks Q flies faster than Thresh's, it also comes back faster, it also doesn't stop halfway, and Thresh can't just activate a ability as he flings his Q. Also, Blitzcrank's E is yet another stun/knock-up that deal double his damage while Thresh just pushes a person back dealing some damage and slowing them for a moment. Blitzcrank's W gives him bonus AS and MS. He's a Tank, why does his need bonus MS and AS? At least Thresh just flings out a lantern that just shows a small area, its also only useful for his allies; doesn't do nothing to a enemy but watch a almost kill get away. Their passives are different; though Thresh gains bonus armor infinitely, he doesn't just automatically gain it, it takes every two souls, meanwhile, Blitzcrank gets a mana shield that activates on low health and can go to great lengths as one of the best shields in the game (beating Shen's ultimate that itself has drawbacks). And now, the R's; Thresh makes barriers that deal A LOT of damage when someone hits it (doesn't work a second time) and slows them a lot, meanwhile Blitzcrank passively deals tons of damage to nearby enemies and deals a lot of damage in a small area to enemies, also silencing them. To me, I'm glad he made Thresh, not crazy about his early release, but glad Thresh replaces Blitzcrank.

Mordekaiser is really fun right now. Could use some buffs to that W, at least allow monster kills to be given a W and/or allow minions to be given it as well. (The fact it doesn't work on monsters annoys me.)

Also, if I were to play against a Yasuo with myself as a Victor, I'd just poke him with my Q and wait for moments to trap him with my W to use my E. Also, if he gets too close, I'd W the ground and R him. If I were to be Xerath, I'd W to poke him, wait for good moments to use my E to stun and good moments to use my Q. Also, if he hides at Tower or I see him farming and I'm close enough, I believe I'd hit him with my R's, him or the minions. Either works for me.

ElJanitorFrankAug 12, 20157 votes

I'm a little sad that people are downvoting you, I'd rather the posts stayed neutral in a debate like this.

Now, I'm a Viktor main, he's got a few abilities blocked by wind wall, and he's an immobile mage. However, I have absolutely no trouble fighting Yasuo, I actually think it's quite fun. I don't see 'staying away from my minions' as an obnoxious product of his kit, I find baiting him into trying to harass me, and then harassing him back as a fun mini-game esque activity.

I might just concede on the point of Thresh. I do believe that his abilities are not strong enough on their own, however it is a bit too easy to land them in succession. I will say that Thresh takes skill to be used effectively, and the use of him effectively makes counter play very hard to do, but it CAN be done.

And I disagree on Mordekaiser. Right now, Riot (CertainlyT) is simply testing the waters, seeing if a bruiser can go bot lane with a support. And you know, Mordekaiser is easily the best melee champion to do so, courtesy of his passive shield. He is one of the few melee champions that doesn't care about auto attack harass at all; making him the perfect 'test-subject' if you will, to see how a bruiser/support combination works bot lane.

I skimmed most of the last paragraph, and am only now seeing the point of Viktor on the end :P. But with Xerath, actually, the ONLY ability blocked by his windwall is Xerath's E. Every thing else is reliant on Yasuo dodging and Xerath predicting. With Viktor, the first part of his Q and his E are blocked, however , you can place your E on the other side of his wall and hit him from that side. It makes landing it incredibly easy; even though you are a bit too close for comfort, his movement are extremely predictable and it'll make landing the laser easy.

Not to say that there are champion who do have poor match ups with Yasuo, what with their abilities getting blocked a lot, but if you take the wind wall out of the equation (it's got what, a 20 second cooldown?) then I don't think any champion would have troubles against him, if played correctly. It would result in some skill match ups, sure, but there aren't any STRONG counters at that point.

LeeDarkAug 12, 20154 votes

Yasuo: you have jack-all to back this up. Neither Yasuo's pick rate, ban rate, or win rates suggets people still have a huge problem with him. You can only state how you "FEEL." I have no problems playing against a Yasuo, no more than any other champion. Landing shit isn't as hard as you seem to think. Yasuo's dash is a fixed distance in a straight line.
Morde has ALWAYS had a problem against kiting, and yet plenty of Morde mains managed to do well in games where they got counterpicked in lane. Morde will ALWAYS outlevel his opponents in bot lane, and he still has his shield. Now, is the shield properly balanced to keep him alive enough in bot? I don't know; I haven't played the rework yet. Maybe it should be buffed. The fact remains, he still definitely has the tools to do well there without giving him a built in dash or CC. I would definitely say they shouldn't have nerfed his base move speed, at least not so heavily. Yeah, Thresh is probably a good counter to him... that can be said for almost every champion, because every champion is countered by something.

Trash ADC BtwAug 12, 20157 votes

How about the fact that if he's halfway smart, he can prevent your skillshot from hitting him. You aim for the end of the dash? He doesn't dash. you target him directly? He dashes. It's not like he can't see them coming. That's the point I was making. With decent amounts of skill, you can dodge just about anything just about anytime with Yasuo. That is a fact.

W. Cannot. Be. Used. On. Himself. Or. Minions. Anymore. Do you understand how that's completely unfair to any Morde player who enjoys solo lanes? I have spoken with dozens of players who have played the rework and they unanimously agree that it's hamfisted, backwards and completely unfun. I'm sorry, but you fail to realize that Morde has a fanbase. This fanbase is mad as HELL right now. I may not be a morde main, but I know at least a few people who are. They're disgusted.

TotalJerkAug 12, 20153 votes

{quoted}

Certainly. Yasuo has unlimited short range dashes. Do you know who only had two short range dashes because it made her too sticky/able to escape before her rework? Fiora. Do you know who got that number taken down to one after her rework? Fiora. Yasuo, in a lane with enemy minions pushed cannot be caught. He cannot be hit with a skillshot at a semi-decent distance and even worse, on any kind of chase whatsoever he generates his resource, flow, which gives him automatic kiting potential since he has huge, fast skillshots, no mana consumption, and a regenerating shield that only requires him to keep moving, which with nigh-unlimited dashing is never a problem.

Yasuo's "Unlimited dashes" are extremely circumstantial. If anything I'd say Yasuo is a frustrating champion for both himself and others because his mobility is reliant on something he has little control over: precise enemy minion positioning. We all remember times when an awkwardly or conveniently positioned minion either saved him or left him helpless.

Thresh was designed from the ground up in concept, by CertainlyT's own admission to be a character that was "good in any role in any position". He was supposed to be a top, mid, marksman, support, tank, jungler. That design is in and of itself inherently unhealthy, since the ability to play one-role usually comes with its own weaknesses that need to be compensated for. With Thresh on release and even to this day, the weaknesses he has are usually fairly easy to prevent from being a problem, even having been heavily nerfed, his design still lacks in the counterplay department.

Thresh has loads of counterplay and is a reasonably balanced champion by himself. His problem is that while there are reasons not to pick other champions, there is almost never a reason not to pick Thresh. He is the ultimate safe-pick.

As for Ignored Player Feedback, one of the first questions he was asked on the Mordekaiser rework was "How are we going to avoid being kited in bot-lane?" to which he replied, "Find a teammate to help you". This is completely ignoring the question. In treating the question like it was going to be Mordekaiser and a support vs. a Solo bot lane, he completely and rather arrogantly dismissed the inherent problem with what he is saying, "How is your support supposed to outplay the range and CC of the enemy support and ranged marksman, who quite probably have double the CC of your own support?"

If I had to guess, the shit they were giving him seems to have gotten to him and it's imparing his ability to accept the more constructive criticism. Fun fact: When you say something shitty to someone that gets to them, they begin to get irrational, and I'm suspecting as much because one of his responses was a subtly self-deprecating,

As you can see, there are some major, recurring issues with his designs, especially in the counterplay department, especially on release. As you can also see, he ignores crucial questions about what's coming up, and while I've only given you one example here, the pattern holds through at least as far back as the concerned questions he was getting at Yasuo's release. I've checked back a long way in the history of his replies and the pattern is quite solid.

He doesn't ignore them, he just immediately reverts to self-defense mode every time someone criticizes his decisions. While that definitely isn't always the correct way to respond to feedback, it's far from ignoring.

Trash ADC BtwAug 12, 20155 votes

Actually, a lot of the hate CertainlyT received for this came AFTER he started ignoring feedback, not the other way around. That's mostly the problem I have with him. Even when he was mostly being praised, as far back as the Yasuo launch, instead of responding to questions, he answers with "This is why I'm right and your potential criticism is wrong", even when the answer he gives is completely worthless.

Fair point on thresh, He doesn't have a dash, so on his own he is rather vulnerable, the problem therein lies in the fact that, as you said, there's no reason NOT to pick Thresh if he's not going to be alone.

"If I had to guess, the shit they were giving him seems to have gotten to him and it's imparing his ability to accept the more constructive criticism."

Sadly this is not the case, the hate he got over this started primarily as a reaction to the event that I said.

As for Yasuo, the dashes are only situational if they DON'T know how to position. Positioning well gives you exactly the dash you want when you need it, if you're smart. If you telegraph your attacks at all and he has any way to position a minion near him, he can dodge it. If he doesn't have a minion or a monster with him... why should he engage?

ElJanitorFrankAug 12, 20155 votes

I just want to quickly respond to this comment from the future, and like to point out that this whole thread spawned a bunch of very mature discussions.

Now go to a CertainlyT hate thread and find me some.

DengedenAug 12, 20152 votes

Read the post
& 3. It's League, champion-wise, a very simple game. It's hard not to make the same "mistakes" when you're going for a unique.
I beg to differ. At the very least, you have to admit that these abilities are necessary for the champion to do anything in certain situations (primarily the laning phase).
Meh, I'd blame the playerbase on that one. His champions usually have very obvious counterplay but if you are incapable of abusing them, their strengths become a bit overbearing. Yasuo cries you a river if you (start flask and) can CS under tower. So does Ekko if you can dodge his incredibly predictable skill shots. Thresh is a support and automatically inherits all their weaknesses (outside of the laning phase). Did he even make Zed? He's the only one I'd concede lack of weaknesses to. (When he was strong, ofc). He was one of the last true counters in the game. He countered a lot of stuff and got countered by just as much.

IcyPepperAug 11, 201536 votes

Where is all the hate coming from? Okay, okay, YES. I CONCEDE. His champions may come out really powerful on release.

It's not that they're powerful, they're just unfun to play against.

Look, I'm going to be honest. I don't hate the guy, nor do I hate the champions, but they get annoying at times.

Zed is annoying because of his poke, mobility, and passive, making his laning relatively safer than some assassins who excel post-six. Granted, he falls off late-game because of how energy works and his ult being single-target. My main gripe is that it feels like there's no counterplay to his ult (you can take exhaust, you can take QSS or zhonyas, but what do you do before you buy those items exactly? Flash away?).

I got nothing on Yasuo, since I don't really main mid all that much. I know his shield/windwall is a huge gripe, but I do like his ultimate's limiter (and the wombo combos make him a champion I enjoy having on my team, because then I know I can make a pick that will better influence teamfights like Malphite).

Thresh was the bane of my pre-30 games with Blitzcrank. I used to main Sona, who counters Thresh once you get your game knowledge down. He's got a lot in his kit. Engage and disengage on two spells, and an escape/shield for an ally on the lantern. And his ult is useful too. Ranged as well (which you can consider somewhat a weakness. It helps poke, but doesn't let him execute with relic shield, making it difficult in solo queue if your adc won't let you last-hit). Overplayed as well.

I like Zyra. She was OP on release I hear, but right now I don't have any issues with her.

I hope my opinion helps. Honestly, between you and me, I think CertainlyT has the right idea but his execution is just plain... flawed. I feel like if he was paired up with someone more experienced, like maybe RiotRepertoir I guess? He really gets the theme of a champion down, but he tends to cram a lot into a kit.

Zenthon PrimeAug 11, 20157 votes

I main mid, so I can hopefully shred some light on why Yasuo is BS. See, if you aren't the midlaner, Yasuo looks fine. However, his windwall is simply too powerful of a tool to give to a midlaner period, especially when combined with the shield.

Look at it this way: Windwall can block anywhere from 50% (Xerath E-W combo, Syndra E, Vel Q/E) to ALL (Ahri, Lux, Veigar, Ziggs) of a midlaner's damage depending on the champion. It's also nearly instant (and many mage spells have delays), making it hard to "outplay". In addition, Yasuo can dash 6-7 times per minion wave, so dodging skilshots for him is hilariously easy. And even when you do manage to get past the wall and actually hit him, the damned passive shield blocks most of what you hit him with. The shield is also good at helping him survive poke, which is the normal counterplay to melee assassins in mid. And then there's the fact that he snowballs hard because of his BS double-crit passive.

Oh, and you forgot the true BS, Kalista, but I don't think I need to explain to anyone at this point why this champion is so bad.

air tigerAug 12, 20151 votes

Hey, just one thing.

He doesn't block Veigar's W. That being said, Yasuo is a straight up counter to Veigar (as far as I've experienced), so yea.. kind of expect a hard lane. I certainly get pissed when his WW blocks my Ult.. I mean, that feels cancerous.

but then I think about real lane cancer fizz and realize yasuo is in a pretty decent place.

Agree with your post, though.

Zenthon PrimeAug 12, 20152 votes

It's not like Veigar will actually hit his W on a Yasuo. Ever.

Same deal with Lux, because even though Lux ult goes through windwall she needs her Q to set it up.

TheLegendaryZeroAug 12, 20153 votes

Yeah...there are people way more cancerous than Yasuo. Fizz's troll poll doesn't have anywhere near the cooldown of Yasuo's windwall. Especially late.

NarasimhaAug 12, 20153 votes

As for Yasuo, the thing is, thats ENTIRELY fair. That's why he's a melee carry. They always have atleast one fairly powerful defensive tool on their kit.

Tryndamere - Self heal, immunity to death Yi- Heal, damage reduction, slow immunity, untargetable Fiora - Heal, aoe heal, temporary cc and damage immunity Aatrox (debatable as a carry) - Self heal, revive passive Jax - AA dodge, defensive steroid.

Compared to them, Yasuo has pretty weak options. A shield that can be poked, then reengaged when its recharging. And a windwall with a massive cooldown.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 12, 20156 votes

Except none of them have mobility like Yasuo. None of them have damage like Yasuo. Sure, they have damage. Sure, they have some mobility. Sure, they can carry. But Yasuo has assassin-level damage, assassin-level mobility, and bruiser-level defenses. That isn't fair. He is a huge counter to most mages and doesn't have a lot of counters himself.

NarasimhaAug 12, 20151 votes

None of them have damage like Yasuo.

Well, yeah. They all have much higher. It'd be much more accurate to say none of them have the mobility of Yas because Yas doesn't have their damage.

Yi has higher mobility, damage, and survivability. Fiora has lower mobility but higher damage and equal survivability. Tryndamere has slightly lower mobility but much higher damage and survivability. Jax has low mobility but higher damage and survivability.

Out of all melee carries infact, Yasuo is one of, if not the weakest. Well, I'll give a little wiggle room for Fiora, but she's still new. He has high mobility because his damage is one of the lowest, and his survivability is nothing special.

And if its counters you're looking for, heres a few in midlane alone. Diana Fizz Kayle Malzahar Swain Zyra Viktor

Edit: Slight update, Yasuo beats out Jax in damage, but massively loses out in survivability.

TurquoiseYoshiAug 12, 20152 votes

Before taking account for damage, did you count crits? Because Yasuo crits all the freaking time. You also may have forgotten his armor penetration on his ult.

Diana, Swain, Zyra and Viktor all get a lot of their abilities blocked by Wind Wall.

NarasimhaAug 12, 20153 votes

Actually, yes. Confirmed it on Lolking too. Just having crits isn't enough if he doesn't survive long enough to use it. Also, its BONUS armor pentration. Only works against bonus armor.

Also, just having an ability blocked doesn't mean anything.

Yasuo can't outkite Diana, she has too much cc and enough gapclosers. And she outduels him with her shield. Swain outsustains him, and his Q and E aren't blocked by Windwall. Zyra's Q, W, and R bypass windwall, letting her poke him down easy. And even a missed E usually sets up plants, which hurts Yasuo just as much. And Viktor outtrades Yasuo. His Q allows him to trade better, especially in lane, and his W can't be blocked, usually forcing Yasuo to run or be stunned. Vik's ult can't be blocked either.

air tigerAug 12, 20152 votes

How about instead of your crying, you play Yasuo so that you'll know what you're up against. Buy armor. Buy pots. Use your auto to break his shield. Play safely, knowing he can dash around through minions.

So tired of shitty crybabies getting upvotes for they QQ circle jerks when they don't have the capability of LEARNING HOW TO COUNTER or at least learning how to play safe.

Enjoy your tears. I do.

Nameless VoiceAug 11, 201524 votes

(Warning: Long post)

CertainlyT didn't make Zed or Zyra, he did some small work on both but wasn't the main designer. They don't count as examples.

The problem with CertainlyT's champions (excluding Darius) is that they tend to do everything. They have no real weaknesses, or when they do, their kits have tools to allow them to negate those weaknesses.

I'm not going to mention Darius here because he doesn't follow the pattern of the other champions (plus, I don't personally play top so I'm not experienced enough to really analyse him.) That leaves Thresh, Yasuo and Kalista.

Thresh does everything. His Flay alone is one of the most powerful abilities in the game (though yes, it takes skill to use well), but he also has a "dodge or die" hook (not as good as Blitzcrank's, but still there), a shield, a free escape for anyone on his team, an ult with massive area control, and a shield. He literally has so much going on on his kit that even if they reduced all his numbers to nothing and removed the poke he gets on his Flay passive, he'd probably still be the most-picked and most-versatile support. This isn't a numbers issue, his design has too much in it and can never be truly balanced while keeping all of the tools he has in his kit. Other supports are good at one or two things, but Thresh does it all. And this probably the best of the three champions

Yasuo also has a lot going on in his kit, but his main problem isn't so much the overload but the fact that he has the tools to negate his weaknesses so well that he can effectively invalidate a lot of champions. He hard-counters many mage champions who are reliant on skillshots and use mana, while also having great damage, late-game scaling, and strong utility even if he's behind. Riot love to talk about how abilities (and champions) should have counterplay, and one of the things that are often used as an example of counterplay is skillshots - which is true in most cases, but a champion like Yasuo can dash so often for free that he becomes almost impossible to hit with skillshots, yet he doesn't pay anything for this strength. Take for example a Katarina using Shunpo to dodge a skillshot - she puts an important skill on a fairly long cooldown by doing so. Someone like Ezreal goes one farther and also has a significant mana cost added. These champions can use their skill, at a cost, to outplay a skillshot. Yasuo gets to do it for free, with no cost and almost no cooldown. Furthermore, if there is something he cannot dodge (a skillshot with no minions near, or a non-skillshot projectile) he can throw up his wind wall to block it. This does have a long cooldown, giving it some risk, but the effect is lessened when added to his crazy mobility. Finally, for what damage does get through his first two defences, he has a third defence - a free shield - to block even more damage. He basically has three tools that are each strong against poke mages, all for free (while the mage needs to use mana to do their thing), and combined together they make him an absolute nightmare to play against as any kind of ranged skillshot mage. He basically invalidates an entire subset of the champion pool, and you are forced to pick something else in order to have a chance to lane against him. Again, all of this does require skill on the part of the Yasuo player - but after a certain level of Yasuo's skill, his opponent's skill doesn't really matter any more, because the Yasuo can negate almost anything the opponent can do.

Finally, we get to Kalista. Again, she has a lot of things going on in her kit. She has a delayed damage pattern, a lot of utility, and works very well with a support. That alone would have made a viable champion, but in addition to that she has a passive that gives her unparalleled mobility when near targets to attack. This has all of the same issues as Yasuo's mobility - it makes her almost completely immune to skillshots. Since she is free to hop in any direction and not just through enemies like Yasuo, she's even better at evading skillshots, since she can change direction at random, or even once the skillshot projectile is already in-flight. Yes, this takes mechanical skill, but again after a certain level of mechanical skill she can completely negate an entire class of champion. Her infinite hops also make her almost completely immune to champions with a shorter range than her, unless those champions can gapclose to her and kill her instantly (or CC her long enough to kill her.) Again, this is a champion whose kit allows her to negate the skill of her opponent and to hard-counter a large subset of champions.

You'll notice that none of the things that I've complained about here are numbers or power levels. They are, instead, problems with the kit of the champions that make them almost impossible to balance, extremely frustrating to play against, and actually break several of Riot's own design philosophies (basically, having champions who hard-counter others to such an extent breaks Riot's goal that games should not be won in champion select.) The balance team is left to try to clean up the mess, but it's really difficult for them. They can try to either massively reduce the numbers to make the champion seem balanced (like Yasuo, who is "balanced", verging on weak, but still retains all of his problems and is still heavily hated by the people who have to play against him), or they can try to nerf/adjust basic parts of the game for that specific champion to try to bring their power level down (adjusting Kalista's autoattack ratios, which makes her closer to "balanced" but doesn't change any of her hard-countering issues), but none of these changes can really fix the champions because the design is too overloaded and impossible to balance. The champions really need reworks to bring them in line, despite only being recent releases.

As for CertainlyT, he designs champions who have great thematics, well-designed characters, unique mechanics, whose kits feel fluid and fit well together. He has a lot of good ideas, but the problem is that he puts too many of them into a single champion, resulting in an overloaded mess, instead of keeping the unique ideas and spreading them out more over different champions. This isn't entirely CertainlyT's fault, though, since the rest of Riot's design team approve and champions and allow them to get added to the game, and also help with the design and implementation. Also note that CertainlyT's champions aren't the only offenders; there are other champions with similar design issues. It's just that nearly all of his champions have them, and they are also more recent than most of the other offenders (where "Riot were new and didn't know any better back then" can be used an excuse.)

What I can't understand is how the designers can talk about Riot's design values, especially when talking about reworking or redesigning older champions, but the same rules are broken and ignored for (some) newer champions.

I don't really have anything to comment on the Morde rework. I'll wait until the changes settle a bit more and I see it on live before forming too much of an opinion.

IS1a442cd69a169ed293a39Aug 12, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LtVjfdL4,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-08-11T23:24:38.459+0000)

(Warning: Long post)

CertainlyT didn't make Zed or Zyra, he did some small work on both but wasn't the main designer. They don't count as examples.

The problem with CertainlyT's champions (excluding Darius) is that they tend to do everything. They have no real weaknesses, or when they do, their kits have tools to allow them to negate those weaknesses.

I'm not going to mention Darius here because he doesn't follow the pattern of the other champions (plus, I don't personally play top so I'm not experienced enough to really analyse him.) That leaves Thresh, Yasuo and Kalista.

Thresh does everything. His Flay alone is one of the most powerful abilities in the game (though yes, it takes skill to use well), but he also has a "dodge or die" hook (not as good as Blitzcrank's, but still there), a shield, a free escape for anyone on his team, an ult with massive area control, and a shield. He literally has so much going on on his kit that even if they reduced all his numbers to nothing and removed the poke he gets on his Flay passive, he'd probably still be the most-picked and most-versatile support. This isn't a numbers issue, his design has too much in it and can never be truly balanced while keeping all of the tools he has in his kit. Other supports are good at one or two things, but Thresh does it all. And this probably the best of the three champions

Yasuo also has a lot going on in his kit, but his main problem isn't so much the overload but the fact that he has the tools to negate his weaknesses so well that he can effectively invalidate a lot of champions. He hard-counters many mage champions who are reliant on skillshots and use mana, while also having great damage, late-game scaling, and strong utility even if he's behind. Riot love to talk about how abilities (and champions) should have counterplay, and one of the things that are often used as an example of counterplay is skillshots - which is true in most cases, but a champion like Yasuo can dash so often for free that he becomes almost impossible to hit with skillshots, yet he doesn't pay anything for this strength. Take for example a Katarina using Shunpo to dodge a skillshot - she puts an important skill on a fairly long cooldown by doing so. Someone like Ezreal goes one farther and also has a significant mana cost added. These champions can use their skill, at a cost, to outplay a skillshot. Yasuo gets to do it for free, with no cost and almost no cooldown. Furthermore, if there is something he cannot dodge (a skillshot with no minions near, or a non-skillshot projectile) he can throw up his wind wall to block it. This does have a long cooldown, giving it some risk, but the effect is lessened when added to his crazy mobility. Finally, for what damage does get through his first two defences, he has a third defence - a free shield - to block even more damage. He basically has three tools that are each strong against poke mages, all for free (while the mage needs to use mana to do their thing), and combined together they make him an absolute nightmare to play against as any kind of ranged skillshot mage. He basically invalidates an entire subset of the champion pool, and you are forced to pick something else in order to have a chance to lane against him. Again, all of this does require skill on the part of the Yasuo player - but after a certain level of Yasuo's skill, his opponent's skill doesn't really matter any more, because the Yasuo can negate almost anything the opponent can do.

Finally, we get to Kalista. Again, she has a lot of things going on in her kit. She has a delayed damage pattern, a lot of utility, and works very well with a support. That alone would have made a viable champion, but in addition to that she has a passive that gives her unparalleled mobility when near targets to attack. This has all of the same issues as Yasuo's mobility - it makes her almost completely immune to skillshots. Since she is free to hop in any direction and not just through enemies like Yasuo, she's even better at evading skillshots, since she can change direction at random, or even once the skillshot projectile is already in-flight. Yes, this takes mechanical skill, but again after a certain level of mechanical skill she can completely negate an entire class of champion. Her infinite hops also make her almost completely immune to champions with a shorter range than her, unless those champions can gapclose to her and kill her instantly (or CC her long enough to kill her.) Again, this is a champion whose kit allows her to negate the skill of her opponent and to hard-counter a large subset of champions.

You'll notice that none of the things that I've complained about here are numbers or power levels. They are, instead, problems with the kit of the champions that make them almost impossible to balance, extremely frustrating to play against, and actually break several of Riot's own design philosophies (basically, having champions who hard-counter others to such an extent breaks Riot's goal that games should not be won in champion select.) The balance team is left to try to clean up the mess, but it's really difficult for them. They can try to either massively reduce the numbers to make the champion seem balanced (like Yasuo, who is "balanced", verging on weak, but still retains all of his problems and is still heavily hated by the people who have to play against him), or they can try to nerf/adjust basic parts of the game for that specific champion to try to bring their power level down (adjusting Kalista's autoattack ratios, which makes her closer to "balanced" but doesn't change any of her hard-countering issues), but none of these changes can really fix the champions because the design is too overloaded and impossible to balance. The champions really need reworks to bring them in line, despite only being recent releases.

As for CertainlyT, he designs champions who have great thematics, well-designed characters, unique mechanics, whose kits feel fluid and fit well together. He has a lot of good ideas, but the problem is that he puts too many of them into a single champion, resulting in an overloaded mess, instead of keeping the unique ideas and spreading them out more over different champions. This isn't entirely CertainlyT's fault, though, since the rest of Riot's design team approve and champions and allow them to get added to the game, and also help with the design and implementation. Also note that CertainlyT's champions aren't the only offenders; there are other champions with similar design issues. It's just that nearly all of his champions have them, and they are also more recent than most of the other offenders (where "Riot were new and didn't know any better back then" can be used an excuse.)

What I can't understand is how the designers can talk about Riot's design values, especially when talking about reworking or redesigning older champions, but the same rules are broken and ignored for (some) newer champions.

I don't really have anything to comment on the Morde rework. I'll wait until the changes settle a bit more and I see it on live before forming too much of an opinion.

That pretty much covers every thing I have to say.

manbearswineAug 12, 20152 votes

A great post and exactly what I think about his champions,aside from this:

[{quoted}](name=Nameless Voice,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LtVjfdL4,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2015-08-11T23:24:38.459+0000)

He literally has so much going on on his kit that even if they reduced all his numbers to nothing and removed the poke he gets on his Flay passive, he'd probably still be the most-picked and most-versatile support.

You're wrong,if you nerf thresh's damage enough he won't be able to lane,and it wouldn't matter how much cc and utility he will bring to the lategame,because you won't have an adc.

This is a myth people love spreading,a support with no laning phase is shit,doesn't matter how overloaded their lategame is.

UrgotFantasyAug 12, 201511 votes

Every time that I think about CT's creativity, my mind comes back to this quote...

ZephyrDrakeAug 11, 201510 votes

and Zyra is left in such a state that she is basically worthless, Thresh has been crowding the support picks since forever and Zed and Yasuo is hated by most people. He might have unique ideas, doesn't mean they are good ideas

Big LincolnAug 11, 201510 votes

mordekaiser rework is even more binary now than it was before and most of his power budget is locked into Q and R. whether or not it's "more interesting" is completely subjective

are we going to keep pretending that the CertainlyT hate threads are the cause of his silence and not an aftereffect of it? because I'm pretty sure that if he did what other rioters did on all 3 of the other reworks, we might actually see some threads praising him like Repertoir has gotten (and for good reason)

GloriousKaiserAug 12, 20152 votes

are we going to keep pretending that the CertainlyT hate threads are the cause of his silence and not an aftereffect of it?

THANK YOU!!! Now this is someone who thought about this in the grande scheme of things.

redniwediSAug 11, 20159 votes

Well said, on all counts. Personally I wouldn't have any issue with any of his work if the champions were a bit more fun to play against, however there is also something positive about beating such a champion.

Akali is SO HOTAug 11, 20158 votes

The only one of his champions that I will really never forgive him for is Kalista. No amount of balancing will ever make her not cancer. Everyone else was op/cancer on release but they have been toned down since then. Kalista will always be cancer and I will hate him for making her. Rant over

VantoothAug 11, 20157 votes

Most champion are pretty much overloaded in the very essence of their kit. They simply do too much. That's why they are so hard to balance. Yasuo: Shield + Knock up + insane crit steroid + armor pen + projectile shield + mana less Zed: Wave clear + safety + huge burst + energy Thresh: Tons of CC + the ability to save his allies from pretty much anything + infinite scaling passive

I can keep going and I could probably find a lot more if I kept searching but I'll go to the main point; CertainlyT seems to suffer from a symptom I call "awesomeness dependency" everything he makes must be the most awesome of them all. He seems to try way too ward to make all his champion so unique, so interesting that he tries to incorporate all and every idea he gets in there kit. Well that's the impression I guess.

I acknowledged his creative ideas, that's why I believe he shouldn't work on a champion as the main designer for them, but go for more of a support role helping and pitching ideas everywhere and let others handle them.

There is also a tendency for his champ to very unfun to play against, no matter the argument that you can counter them it does not change the fact that playing against his champions just take away a lot of fun most of the time.

TL;DR: He needs more experience before creating things by himself or as a team leader. He needs to have someone watching over him to stop him from doing too much. Again, this is how it seems from my point of view, I don't know his actual process in creating those champion so I can't say anything about how he really think.

DrMarshSwampAug 11, 20155 votes

The only big issue I have with CertainlyT (aside from him deciding the numbers of champions because he has shown he cannot reliably do so without them being stupidly stronger than they should be) is that the man tends to ignore ALL feedback from players rather than the usual hate-mob or nonconstructive posts.

And when he does respond lately it feels like he has this sort of "I'm right and your wrong" attitude when all he does is explain why his vision/version of a change is right for the Champion he is working on rather than actually discussing and taking into account player's opinions and thoughts on the matter.

A big and recent example of this is the Mordekaiser rework, where aside from the hate-posts there are detailed posts from long-time Mordekaiser players trying to discuss the rework, only to be told that CertainlyT thinks Mordekaiser is too toxic to be balanced for the solo-lane or how you need to find a support to help his shortcomings.

I get that it must be tiring to get so much hate from the Community, but as a game designer you shouldn't shut out even the people who are earnestly wishing to have a discussion with you over something you're doing, especially if their people who have been playing a Champion since his release whose rework you are currently working on.

I respect CertainlyT as well, I think numbers aside he makes fairly interesting kits, but even I have to admit that he has certainly not acted like a little angel and is free of the (constructive) criticism he is currently getting.

DroogzyAug 11, 20155 votes

As others have pointed out, the problem isn't inherent the designs, I love his designs and I think they are amazing, its two other problems, his champions tend to be one of two things:

Overloaded to the point of being impossible to balance, see Yasuo or Thresh.

Or just being incredibly unfun to play against, see Kalista.

Truthfully told, I'm not sure why people bring up Zyra, Zyra's kit is fine, its just the numbers needed tuning, that's perfectly fine for a champion design. Yes she was insanely powerful on release, but she wasn't impossible to balance.

AnnapiiAug 12, 20155 votes

I love CertainlyT as a new champion designer. It may be difficult to balance his champions, but they're very creative and unique, and they each bring something cool and new to the table. But I think that its exactly because he has such a good imagination that he shouldn't be on champion rework teams. His ideas for Mordekaiser are phenomenal as ideas, but they aren't Mordekaiser. They should definitely be brought into the League- I mean, what's more badass then a champion that can make dragon his bitch? But not at the cost of replacing a champion that's already tried and true.

Tohoko the NekoAug 13, 20152 votes

Agreed. It'd be much simpler to add in the dragon passive and tweak numbers and attack animation/frams(which feel clunky as fuck on the PBE) as an update than a full blown rework that is half competant with someone else that has to do so much extra work to overcompensate that the morde player either feels superfluous and left behind or simply like a literal leash for the dragon to take a walk with every time it's up.

Thanks for making the distinction between new champion designer and rework team leader.

DisasterSolaAug 11, 20154 votes

... Whenever somebody brings up CT i always see kalista hate.

You sheep do realize that upon release, if you morons had clammored for the poise nerf (removal of boot scaling) kalista would have been brought in line with every other ADC in the meta, right?

Instead you beg for a gutting and the balance team nerfs her in all the wrong places... Now we still have a very powerful kalista, but one that is incredibly clunky and not fun to play as.

VDc0zCqe0wAug 11, 20154 votes

{quoted}

... Whenever somebody brings up CT i always see kalista hate.

You sheep do realize that upon release, if you morons had clammored for the poise nerf (removal of boot scaling) kalista would have been brought in line with every other ADC in the meta, right?

Instead you beg for a gutting and the balance team nerfs her in all the wrong places... Now we still have a very powerful kalista, but one that is incredibly clunky and not fun to play as.

needs to be deleted and that's it

bad manner kidAug 11, 20155 votes

[{quoted}](name=Puffball Reborn,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LtVjfdL4,comment-id=000c0000,timestamp=2015-08-11T23:08:22.520+0000)

needs to be deleted and that's it

Delete her passive, increase base MS by 10, let her jump on Q. Kalista balanced.

manbearswineAug 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=All Chat Referee,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=LtVjfdL4,comment-id=000c00000000,timestamp=2015-08-11T23:11:33.156+0000)

Delete her passive, increase base MS by 10, let her jump on Q. Kalista balanced.

Would work.

Issue is,her passive is her identity,deleting her passive=deleting who current kalista is.

Ofc I 100% support deleting that sack of shit(literally or thematically),but you aren't exactly disagreeing with him

Dextix LTAug 12, 20152 votes

Well i dont see a problem since CertainlyT certainly doesnt have a problem with destroying Mordekaiser, now does he?

I is IlliterateAug 12, 20153 votes

Regardless of how the community responds, it's his job and duty as a game/champion designer to communicate with the community and respond to feedback. Not doing so is a big problem and is 100% his fault, and is why so many people are frustrated with him.

Edit: Think, customer service or something like that. Ideally, the customer should show respect to the employee: but a good employee does his job whether or not the customers are courteous.

BijornAug 12, 20153 votes

Have you looked at the PBE thread on the Mord changes? You know, the one he made and got a lot of great feedback that was articulated well where no one flamed him but was just confused on the way to build/play/be successful with Mord in bot lane? The same one he responded to the first two days it was up and then began ignoring the thread because players did not like the new Mord?

In a certain aspect yes you are correct and he does not deserve much of the flaming. But the ignoring of well thought out feedback on HIS thread is upsetting. When he changes the identity and playstyle of a champion people that play said champ are going to be upset. THE biggest issue 90% of the player base that has played Mord on the PBE dislike his new W on how it can not be cast on anyone but ally champions. Gimping an already established champion to fit his needs without actually explaining why he did what he did is what aggravates people. His quote of "Mord will never be a marquee example of a healthy solo laner" is a tad ridiculous. Without giving any context all we Mord players feel is that he decided to change a champion completely, take away part of his identity (he can no longer push waves like before until late game), made him more easily gankable and made 1/4th of his kit unusable in any other lane, without any sort of context besides the quote above, is ridiculous. If he tried explaining why he did what he did I am sure most of the hate that he has been receiving would not be happening.

kcStrangerAug 13, 20153 votes

CertainlyT's designs are cool. But I think he may get caught up in "oh wow this champion is really cool" and not think hard enough about the question "Is this champion miserable to play with/against?" Just because something is cool in and of itself doesn't mean it leads to rewarding gameplay.

LaceUp23Aug 13, 20152 votes

Fun to play as, not fun to play against.

bad manner kidAug 11, 20151 votes

CertaintlyT should be given DPS/Burst damage limits on the champions he creates. He should be allowed to keep making interesting champs but allow the player base to decide to **buff **them or not on release.

Lao Fu the TigerAug 11, 20159 votes

No. The player base doesn't get to make those calls. They're not his judge. That's why Riot has a dedicated balance team.

I guarantee you that every single champion designed by anybody is OP when being conceptualised on paper. That's where they step in.