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Vayne's high play rate shows what a problem her overall design is

DeusVult··27 votes·11,112 views

Not even starting with % true damage. Vayne is a nightmare if you are a melee champion. Its night and day fighting Vayne if you are melee vs if you are ranged. She has a very low CD Q to reposition and empower autos, which gets massively buffed during her ult by having a 50% reduced CD and giving stealth. You cannot fight vayne 1v1 during her ult as 90% of the roster, even if she is behind. Move this up to 95% of the melee champs in the game. Vayne also has one of the greatest self peel abilities in the game, with a no windup skill that creates a gap, which can also double as a stun. So even if you can gapclose on the vayne, she can re-create that gap, and most champs dont have more than one gap-closer.

And once you find that you cannot win the fight against vayne, it is nearly impossible to disengage from vayne since she gets bonus MS when moving towards you.

For years, Vayne was considered a "niche" champ known for her strong late game and anti-tank synergy. except that since her last buff, Vayne has become pretty standard, with high pick/win/ban rates. Even seen play in pro, where they talk about how Vayne comes "online and a true late game monster" at 2 items.

% max health true damage being bullshit aside, and phantom hit being one of the most garbage item passive ideas to ever make it to live, Vayne needs nerfs.

Revert her ult changes from 9.1, give her E a 0.3 second windup so that players have the opportunity to play around it rather than Vayne instantly using it to disenage/deny engage (ie using it to instantly deny engage from a champ like Ali/Xin/etc. Then see how it goes from their. Because as it is Vayne is a champ that if played 100% correctly is untouchable by 90+% of the league roster.

Other thoughts would be making W deal % max health physical damage, then dealing true damage during her ult. Or making it deal % true damage based upon enemies bonus health, so that she is a true tank killer but doesnt get damage vs squishies

Or if you are truly never going to get rid of phantom hit, then code Vayne W in a way that it doesnt benefit from it. Ie the same way that you coded Shyvana Q to not proc multiple times when using item 3077 item 3074 item 3748 because the champ is balanced in such a way that taking 3 hits is balanced, but 2 is not

24 Comments

5StackUltOneShot9 votes

Its nice you know, taking 500 true damage every 2 hits. You start wondering what the fuck you build defensive items for when at the 20 minute mark Vayne is shoving her Rageblade 15 feet up your delicious tanky, tight toplaner ass.

Krys Star4 votes

They should revert her recent buff, change Silver Bolts to physical damage, converting to true damage during Final Hour, and voila. She's much less oppressive and bullshit to deal with... but she's still bullshit either way.

Anime Fizz3 votes

Vayne is supposed to be good against melees that cant 1 shot her instantly (assassins still destroy her for the most part) because shes bad against anything that outranges her (she cant even damage anyone beyond her 550 range), a mage can 100-0 combo her from 900~1000+ range before she even gets any damage off.

Its called tradeoffs, sorry that your champs have bad matchups, or you think it would be fair if i said that assassins should be able 100-0 tanks and bruisers too and that its bullshit i cant kill them in 1 combo?

I dont even play vayne btw.

Nyarlathοtep4 votes

Considering most mages have skillshots (especially those with high range) and skillshots get hard countered by mobility, something that vayne has in abudance, i highly doubt a mage can 100-0 so easily unless she has no reflexes at all. And if you think about it, her tradeoff seem more like, pseudo-tradeoffs. Like yeah they exist, but they are heavily minimized.

Sexy Jack Rabbit1 votes

This is kind of taking out any semblance of Prediction or skill from the mage players hand.

Nyarlathοtep

??????????????????????? ??

What are you talking about? Dodging a skillshot is a reaction at seeing one. Predicting a possible location usually ends up going for naught if the enemy has reflexes (and in our case on demand dash even a short one) since he can react accordingly to your prediction. And its easy to do it in long range spells like morgana's q, or lux's q, xerath's e etc because they are slow as fuck.

Syndra1ShotJFK2 votes

I mean if you have multiple skillshots like xerath. Just throw e. If she dodges you can just press w since she has no q now, and chunk her with q. Why do people always assume Vayne can dodge anything at any possible moment? It's not like her q is .25 second cooldown (aside from her 1sec CD q during ult, which IS bullshit).

Nyarlathοtep

This yes. However you cant 100-0 if you just hit two of your spells. However even then she can evade it because of her passive (i have enough games with xerath to have seen it happening).

Kyovulpes1 votes

{quoted}

Considering most mages have skillshots (especially those with high range) and skillshots get hard countered by mobility.

Malzahar :what can't hear you over me Ulting vanye Syndra :same Veigar :same

Nyarlathοtep2 votes

{quoted}

Malzahar :what can't hear you over me Ulting vanye Syndra :same Veigar :same

MOST

HàrrowR3 votes

Yeah her ''problem'' is you cant get a free kill while rolling your face on the keyboard.

I swear if I had a $ every time someone cried on these forums cause they lost a 1v1 against Vayne, oh no, she cant do that she is supposed to be free gold for me cause Im so bad that I cant kill anyone except an immobile adc without a support, hell forbid an adc can actually defend himself.

Melees have so much bullshit mechanics and get so much free shit that im really in awe when someone has the guts to cry about adcs needing nerfs when 90% of them literally depend on another player and their team in general to keep them alive.

Yes Vayne is strong, shes the Yasuo of adcs, but the game has so much op shit in it that you need to fight fire with fire.

Evelynn Fiora Fizz Irelia Jax Kayn LeeSin Riven Renekton Rengar RekSai MonkeyKing Yasuo Yorick Zed MasterYi

Just a handful of melee that can completely destroy vayne, and dont talk to me about cds when you have spear of shojin that turns champs like riven and jax into unkillable death machines

Nyarlathοtep2 votes

Eve, fizz, kayn (assuming you mean s.a.),rengar(maybe?) and zed are assassins. They are made to burst carries before they retaliate.

Jax and yi are duelists. Their existance is to duel others and both have tools to deal with someone like vayne.

Now, fiora, riven, renekton, yasuo, wu and lee is 50-50. There are a lot of variables to take into account.

Rek and yorick however i seriously doubt they can kill vayne in 1v1. Rek usually built 1 dmg item and then tank items. Vayne loves to fight champs that built defensive items. Yorick has no mobility whatsoever. Sure he can try to lock her down but it wont work because of vayne's ulti and q. And im pretty sure that vayne outdamage's him hard.

HàrrowR1 votes

{quoted}

Eve, fizz, kayn (assuming you mean s.a.),rengar(maybe?) and zed are assassins. They are made to burst carries before they retaliate.

Jax and yi are duelists. Their existance is to duel others and both have tools to deal with someone like vayne.

Now, fiora, riven, renekton, yasuo, wu and lee is 50-50. There are a lot of variables to take into account.

Rek and yorick however i seriously doubt they can kill vayne in 1v1. Rek usually built 1 dmg item and then tank items. Vayne loves to fight champs that built defensive items. Yorick has no mobility whatsoever. Sure he can try to lock her down but it wont work because of vayne's ulti and q. And im pretty sure that vayne outdamage's him hard.

So all of the melee assassins, duelists and slayers can kill her, while rest of them have a 50/50, this is my point exactly, oh the humanity, how dare she have a fighting chance, how dare she not die instantly when you look at her, how dare she makes an enemy think before jumping on her, he should be able to miss all combos and kill her obviously

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

So all of the melee assassins, duelists and slayers can kill her, while rest of them have a 50/50, this is my point exactly, oh the humanity, how dare she have a fighting chance, how dare she not die instantly when you look at her, how dare she makes an enemy think before jumping on her, he should be able to miss all combos and kill her obviously

Hey, can I just ask why u put Yorick in this list? Most of those other champions have a way to minimize Vaynes strengths, but I don't see it with yorick.

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. No one is saying that Vayne shouldn't be able to do what she does to a certain degree. Some just think its currently too easy for her to abuse how her kit and items work against melee champs too consistently. I don't think people want her to suck, its more like they want it to not suck when they play against her especially when they are NOT playing an assassin or skirmisher, because currently Vayne doesn't really have to put in the same amount of work to take out a melee champion as it does for a melee champ to either avoid her or take her out.

I don't believe anyone is saying vayne should be easy to take out at all

Heck most of the time I'm sure people just want to be able to avoid/ not die to her rather than straight up eliminate her, but the way she works makes that hard and it sucks even more for those who aren't Slayers, because both escaping or killing vayne aren't even viable choices and that makes it even easier for her when it was nvr hard 2 begin with.

HàrrowR1 votes

{quoted}

Hey, can I just ask why u put Yorick in this list? Most of those other champions have a way to minimize Vaynes strengths, but I don't see it with yorick.

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding. No one is saying that Vayne shouldn't be able to do what she does to a certain degree. Some just think its currently too easy for her to abuse how her kit and items work against melee champs too consistently. I don't think people want her to suck, its more like they want it to not suck when they play against her especially when they are NOT playing an assassin or skirmisher, because currently Vayne doesn't really have to put in the same amount of work to take out a melee champion as it does for a melee champ to either avoid her or take her out.

I don't believe anyone is saying vayne should be easy to take out at all

I put Yorick there cause I main Vayne and adcs, my side roll is top and Yorick is my main there, all he has to do to kill her is hit his E, he can literally let maiden and ghouls kill her 100-0, he gets crazy ms and can trap her in a cage, nevermind his one q deals half her hp, so yeah, when I was starting out with yorick I got a legit 1v5 quadra kill only to be taken down by the last guy, no one thinks thats broken, cause oh, he's melee, he's top, I guess he's supposed to do that.

The instant an adc isnt free gold, let alone strong, people on the boards lose their mind.

Some melees have it rough vs Vayne, guess what, most adcs, even mages have it even rougher against bruisers,slayers,assassins,juggernauts,divers etc.

You all of a sudden think its not fair that Vayne can kill you and you can do nothing about it, guess what, welcome to the other side, most carries,mages and supps just accept their fate when yasuo,zed,yi,fiora,rengar,kled,trynd whatever gets on top of them.

You see jinx get blasted by Hecarim and you never think,oh boy, how does that player feel, is it really fair, what is he supposed to do (heca is just an example, change him for any other melee and you still get a situation where you can miss literally everything and facetank all the damage just cause you have 2x the base stats, tank items, and more damage in your abilities than the carry)

Im always top of both teams with damage dealt while playing yorick, and I dont have to sacrifice any agency the way an adc does.

I just hate the double standards, Riven can 1v5 and the same people that play riven hate Vayne and cry op, its the reason I stopped playing league last month, too many op shit and the only way to play the game is playing the top 25 champs out of 140

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

I put Yorick there cause I main Vayne and adcs, my side roll is top and Yorick is my main there, all he has to do to kill her is hit his E, he can literally let maiden and ghouls kill her 100-0,

Really? That's funny, I guess u could do that, but only if u hit ur E on her

he gets crazy ms and can trap her in a cage,

But if u kno Yorick then, u kno the MS bonus isn't crazy, its just around 60 flat bonus MS, sure it tags on a slow but compared to vayne its not that much. Also not only does his E have a delay, but once it lands it also has to spread out so Vayne has 2 chances to dodge even if Yorick was able to predict her movements, we both know that E is hard 2 hit and even moreso against mobility, the same is said for his Cage which she can counter with Q or her AS.

nevermind his one q deals half her hp

If he can get in range 2 use it with her knock back and Dash.

The instant an adc isnt free gold, let alone strong, people on the boards lose their mind.

Ok maybe people say that kinda stuff in other threads, but that hasn't been brought up by anyone other than u. I'm suggesting it's a better idea to address the topic of this thread rather than bringing in other points that's not relevant to this thread. No one here is saying Vayne should be free gold, or that she shouldn't be strong, we are just saying we dont like the WAY she is strong right now, because we think its too easy for her to access her strengths without allowing any type of response from certain types of champions. So maybe people in other boards posts have lost thier minds, but most of us in this thread would like to discuss how Vayne could be adapted so she can still be strong but her strengths are gates by more than hitting 2-3 basic attacks. I for one would like to see her play more like the monster hunter her theme promises, but gameplay doesn't deliver, I think we of all champion player types and Vayne mains deserve a champion who is more engaging to play as and against. There's things u can do to achieve this like placing gating mechanics on her dmg to cause her to position differently, or wait, or ramp up over time, or collect things that strengthen her dmg vs a particular target, like how a monster hunter would play, and also gives opponents an opportunity to deny those strengths.

Some melees have it rough vs Vayne, guess what, most adcs, even mages have it even rougher against bruisers,slayers,assassins,juggernauts,divers etc.

You all of a sudden think its not fair that Vayne can kill you and you can do nothing about it, guess what, welcome to the other side, most carries,mages and supps just accept their fate when yasuo,zed,yi,fiora,rengar,kled,trynd whatever gets on top of them.

I dont think its good to try dri start pulling in all these other points to support a claim in this discussion, simply because they aren't relevant and distract from the main topic. But I'll humor u once to attempt to put an end to it: it's not like many people dont already AGREE that "not being able to do anything as X Champ kills you" sucks. The fact that other marksmen/mages have it rough against some melee champs still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. The fact that some slayers and divers kill marksmen/mages with little/less/no counter play still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. This isn't a double standard I would agree that many of those still have issues that need to be addressed, but that's NOT the topic of this discussion. We can discuss them in another thread, one at a time, but this threads topic is Vayne so let's stay focused on her for now

HàrrowR1 votes

{quoted}

Really? That's funny, I guess u could do that, but only if u hit ur E on her

But if u kno Yorick then, u kno the MS bonus isn't crazy, its just around 60 flat bonus MS, sure it tags on a slow but compared to vayne its not that much. Also not only does his E have a delay, but once it lands it also has to spread out so Vayne has 2 chances to dodge even if Yorick was able to predict her movements, we both know that E is hard 2 hit and even moreso against mobility, the same is said for his Cage which she can counter with Q or her AS.

If he can get in range 2 use it with her knock back and Dash.

Ok maybe people say that kinda stuff in other threads, but that hasn't been brought up by anyone other than u. I'm suggesting it's a better idea to address the topic of this thread rather than bringing in other points that's not relevant to this thread. No one here is saying Vayne should be free gold, or that she shouldn't be strong, we are just saying we dont like the WAY she is strong right now, because we think its too easy for her to access her strengths without allowing any type of response from certain types of champions. So maybe people in other boards posts have lost thier minds, but most of us in this thread would like to discuss how Vayne could be adapted so she can still be strong but her strengths are gates by more than hitting 2-3 basic attacks. I for one would like to see her play more like the monster hunter her theme promises, but gameplay doesn't deliver, I think we of all champion player types and Vayne mains deserve a champion who is more engaging to play as and against. There's things u can do to achieve this like placing gating mechanics on her dmg to cause her to position differently, or wait, or ramp up over time, or collect things that strengthen her dmg vs a particular target, like how a monster hunter would play, and also gives opponents an opportunity to deny those strengths.

I dont think its good to try dri start pulling in all these other points to support a claim in this discussion, simply because they aren't relevant and distract from the main topic. But I'll humor u once to attempt to put an end to it: it's not like many people dont already AGREE that "not being able to do anything as X Champ kills you" sucks. The fact that other marksmen/mages have it rough against some melee champs still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. The fact that some slayers and divers kill marksmen/mages with little/less/no counter play still isn't a valid excuse for Vayne. This isn't a double standard I would agree that many of those still have issues that need to be addressed, but that's NOT the topic of this discussion. We can discuss them in another thread, one at a time, but this threads topic is Vayne so let's stay focused on her for now

Tl;dr

Your excuses for yorrick vs vayne are still making my point, its unimaginable for you to actually need to land a skillshot to kill an adc, oh no, I have to be good to kill her I cant just right click on her, oh how could riot be so cruel

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

I'm struggling to understand your point to start, mainly how its relevant to this discussion. You seem to think that some of the people in this post just dislike Vayne for little reason other than "she's strong rn and a bother to deal with" when that's not really the case. It's not very conducive to a constructive conversation if a person keeps deviating from the topic at hand by interjecting adjacent topics that they believe others are trying to passively make.

I'm not saying its unimaginable to land a skillshot to kill anyone, those are combat requirements for many champs especially for important abilities. Same for using skill to be "good" and using more than right clicks, actually I really don't like it when all it takes to kill is right clicks.

I just wanted to address your placement of Yorick as a counter to Vayne, which I think he isn't a very reliable counter to her due to their kit interactions, I think she counters him.

unimaginable for you to actually need to land a skillshot to kill an adc, oh no, ... to kill her I cant just right click

But more than anything else I believe this statement shows just why Vayne could use some rethinking, because that's almost exactly how she works: no skillshots to kill anyone (even for important effects), and all right clicks to kill targets.

I'd appreciate it if u could attempt to refocus on the topic of Vayne and why u think she specifically is or isn't an issue based on the OP's post.

I think its possible to come up with some creative solutions to some of the issues that some people perceive she has

HàrrowR1 votes

{quoted}

I just wanted to address your placement of Yorick as a counter to Vayne, which I think he isn't a very reliable counter to her due to their kit interactions, I think she counters him.

Im not saying he's a hard counter, he can just kill her,like most other champions in the game.

Im extending the discussion from Vayne to other adcs and topics cause i've been on these boards for years and they are consisted of top and mage mains, every day for years there are posts complaining about adcs and its for the stupidest reasons. Mostly people get so upset whenever an adc gets any form of defense or a way to fend for himself, it leads me to believe people literally cannot imagine an adc as anything but a free gold bag that sometimes gets to carry, in which case if he's on the enemy team you can be sure that you'll see it on the boards complaining how adcs are super op and can 2 shot a full build tank while having only 2 items.

Im not saying Vayne is not strong, all im saying is some of these posts are completely unrealistic, i saw a post complaining about how "bot lane meta" is back on, looked at the game, Vayne had 24 kills by 25 minutes, oh no shit she's carrying, if Jax had 24 kills by 25 mins you wouldn't bat an eye if he 1v5d you, hell if soraka had 24 kills she could solo carry, i just hate the double standards.

One more very similar example, Ryze main crying that Vayne is op cause she killed him 1v1, you know the difference in kills? Ryze 3 kills, Vayne 20 kills, and he's crying that she killed him 1v1 lol, she was full build in 25 mins.

Vayne is just the hate flavor of the month, before that it was Lucian if you can recall, every damn day you come on the boards 4 Lucian hate threads, you wanna know why, cause you couldn't just jump him and delete him while missing all your skillshots.

Do you remember the Tristana hate era? Oh no she can self peel and escape, she fucks over melees so hard! No shit, and melees fuck over 90% of the adcs super hard but hey that's the way the game should be right.

The only adcs not many people are crying about are those that are super immobile and require you to have a proper support to work, which again leads me to believe that any adc that can fend for himself gets a dispropriate amount of hate, oh yeah, like Ezreal, now i remembered him.

Like i said i just hate the double standards, i've been playing this game since S1, and for some reason people utterly hate whenever an adc isnt a useless pile of garbage, usually by saying the same thing you're saying now, well they have undodgable damage and things like that, except i took a lot of time playing every class (except support) in the game and there are clear weaknesses and strengths to all of them, people complaining must've never played an adc in their life, i can easily be first on the damage charts with Ahri (which only has 2 easy to land skillshots) while also having more agency thanks to my charm while also being better at 1v1 thanks to my burst,cc and mobility and being also harder to kill thanks to my R and Zhonya, so tell me do all of these benefits come at the costs of having 2 skillshots?

People tend to forget that melees are heavily AA oriented with little to no skillshots, but Harrowr they are MELEE!!!! Yes, and they have so much shit in their kits that they might as well be ranged, Yasuo WW that blocks all ranged damage while having a shield and infinite dashes? Oh i feel so bad for him, Fiora that has a Q on a 1.5 cd while having MS boost from her ult while having crazy lifesteal, while having the ability to parry a Veigar ult if need be, nevermind her proccing her R.

There's countless examples of this, just look at Trynd, he perma crits with one crit item almost, his R is a cancer to deal with, look at Riven and Jax with Shojin, just look at these champs that are "melee" yet have enough cc and defense that they can outright facedive into 5 people and get off a couple of kills, nevermind them fighting 1v1 or 1v2, or god forbid knowing how to team fight properly and going in in the right moment.

FlameHalbrdOkido1 votes

{quoted}

ok

then make ur own boards post and stop flooding this one with comments that aren't relevant. Not only are u doin this thread a disservice, but more than anyone ur doing UR self a disservice, because im pretty sure im the only one reading ur comments, everyone else is gonna ignore them because they are long and completely irrelevent. If u want to make these specific points, and u want to be listened to in order to make a change and get people to change their positions on these issues u have, then u should make ur own OP and stop wasting time here.

Dracocrash3 votes

Apparently being 50% pick/ban in soloque on a "high skill cap champion" with a ~52% win-rate in plat + is balanced according to riot.

Craft Zeppelin2 votes

Oh I remember at least 3 incidents since i started playing this game from season 4. One incident was when they overbuffed bork, the other was adding Shiv/RFC into her item kit, the other was when they overbuffed her Q. And now its her ult.

She always goes top pick if she gets buffed in the slightest if done directly, and also if her related items are buffed. To keep vayne niche is to...

  1. Riot forgets that bork exists after they gut it.
  2. Remove special ADC item interactions. (Currently bork+guinsoo+silver bolts. Hell if they nerf Guinsoos, they would just go to Shojin.)
  3. Revert the Q and Ult buffs.
A Large Pepsi1 votes

I am still waiting for those skin sales to go down so they can remove that stupid fucking R/Q buff

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