Boy oh boy nothing better than the Yi ulted by Ardent Kayle cheese

General Esdeath ·Jan 7, 2018·1 votes·793 views

I'm glad Riot isn't changing her ult to not count as a shield since it's been so problematic in the past, especially on a stat champ like Kayle.

23 Comments

Final Spark LuxJan 7, 20182 votes

Considering Kayle has a heal, it really wouldn't change much if her ult didn't count as a shield. I think the best thing you can do in these kinds of match-ups is stay grouped at all times after lane phase, and end the game as quickly as possible. Maybe focus on pushing one lane down rather than trying to take every single turret one by one, keep things well warded to see Yi coming and prevent him from getting fed, etc.

General Esdeath Jan 7, 20181 votes

The issue comes more from ardent proccing with the ult that makes someone immune to all damage, especially in this meta where there's enough burst damage to get a kill or 2 before the ult wears off.

We tried, doesn't work because Yi shreds our front line in 0.8 seconds. Even if we see him coming we back off and get pushed in.

SEKAIJan 7, 20181 votes

Isn't that just as terrifying as Kayle with any other champs who can do serious damage, like Riven, Yasuo, Trynd, Udyr, Vayne, or just like Kayle ulti as a whole? I can't see why having Yi in this combo is so special in this regard.

Nor do I approve of any "exception" driven balancing, you don't want a game where the rule is filled to the brim with exceptions.

If anything, if Kayle's ulti is in actuality too oppressive, change it instead. In fact, they're doing that right now anyways, given Kayle and Morg has been confirmed (I think??) for a duo rework or something along those lines that's gonna take place in the foreseeable future, just not right now.

General Esdeath Jan 8, 20181 votes

Yi is more problematic because the ideal way to deal with him is CC, which can't include slows because of his ult.

Not to mention Yi can utilize lifesteal better than most junglers with his double strike.

What's the counterplay to a Kayle ult? just run? oh wait...he's running at me at 700 movespeed.

LufistJan 8, 20181 votes

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General Esdeath Jan 8, 20181 votes

> in the game > shows diamond ranked stats

Hmm a champ who needs items is at a low winrate in a meta where games end in 20 minutes in the elo where snowballing is at its worst?

Couldn't be that in higher elo people snowball enough and a whole team knows how to deal with him instead of one person trying while the other 4 run around like headless chickens.

:thinking:

LufistJan 8, 20181 votes

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General Esdeath Jan 8, 20181 votes

I don't think you understand how that works. I can't make my team perform better. If I'm using my CC on him AND damaging him but my team won't CC the Kayle or use their CC, what can I do? Damn, I got outplayed hard, he got a better team. Matchmaking OP.

LufistJan 8, 20181 votes

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General Esdeath Jan 8, 20181 votes

The only constant in my game who actually TRIES to CC him or tries to defend a turret while the rest of them are splitting while 5 of them are pushing down mid. Yep it must be me my dude.

LufistJan 9, 20181 votes

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General Esdeath Jan 9, 20181 votes

You could flip that and say why are some unable to climb? Why are there people in silver who farm 10 cs a minute? But there are people in plat who go negative every game? Because it's a team game. As long as you get matched with someone good, pre-made or not, you can climb.

Being just as likely for anything doesn't change this fact. We're all just as likely to have the afk player, the inter, the guy who is tilted from last game and just yells racial slurs in chat, etc.

LufistJan 9, 20181 votes

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General Esdeath Jan 10, 20181 votes

I didn't deny that, but there are people who climb with a 50% and some luck. Last season I struggled for G5 and won in the last week because the enemy had a guy running down mid.

I'm not blaming, this is an annoying interaction that has been there for so long and keeps Kayle in the "nerf if ever doing good" bin. If one skill is such an issue, change it.

TheGoomyGamerJan 8, 20181 votes

Or... CC him like you just said?

General Esdeath Jan 8, 20181 votes

The problem comes from his being immune to all damage due to Kayle ult. You CC him and he gets ulted through it, and then you're back at square one but have no CC.

TheGoomyGamerJan 9, 20181 votes

True. If you have a low-CC team, then I can see it being a massive issue. If your team has a large amount of CC with a champion like Maokai or Alistar, then chaining CC together and using it should be effective, but off the top of my head I cannot think of a way around this with a low-CC team., assuming this is in a late-game teamfight. Constantly invading the Yi and trying to put him behind seems like the best course of action, and trying to not let the game reach the late game in which Kayle and Yi shine.

General Esdeath Jan 9, 20181 votes

Even with CC he just gets ulted so we can't burst him down during the time =/ why is this horrible idea still in the game? A shield take reduces ALL damage to zero? While boosting your damage due to ardent?

NemeBroJan 8, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Isn't that just as terrifying as Kayle with any other champs who can do serious damage, like Riven, Yasuo, Trynd, Udyr, Vayne, or just like Kayle ulti as a whole? I can't see why having Yi in this combo is so special in this regard.

Because Yi deals considerably more DPS than any other champion you just named, including Vayne. If he goes crit, he also has more burst than any of those champions. Yi also has much higher movement speed than any of those champions except Udyr, along with tools to get close to the enemy squishies quickly.

SEKAIJan 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

Because Yi deals considerably more DPS than any other champion you just named, including Vayne. If he goes crit, he also has more burst than any of those champions. Yi also has much higher movement speed than any of those champions except Udyr, along with tools to get close to the enemy squishies quickly.

I do not buy that Yi does "considerably more DPS" than Vayne. Nor do I buy that Yi has more bursts when he goes crits in this case.

Have you ever seen just how much damage Vayne does?

NemeBroJan 9, 20181 votes

{quoted}

I do not buy that Yi does "considerably more DPS" than Vayne. Nor do I buy that Yi has more bursts when he goes crits in this case.

Have you ever seen just how much damage Vayne does?

So using precision and domination runes for Vayne with fleet footwork on her has Vayne doing about 1,700 DPS against the target dummy with the practice tool, using a pretty meta build of item 3087 item 3006 item 3031 item 3094 item 3072 item 3139 .

Whoa, that sounds incredible right? But the thing is, Vayne's W sort of heavily skews her DPS upward, since the practice dummy has 10,000 health.

Now, a Yi with the exact same runes as that Vayne (though most Yi players take press the attack, so DPS will actually usually be higher), also does about 1,700 DPS, with the Silencee crit build: item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 item 3087 item 3036 item 3139

So they get about the same DPS total, despite Yi using a relatively lower DPS build than his normal on-hit and Vayne's DPS being skewed by her percent health true damage.

Oh, and Yi does about 2,400+ DPS with a fairly average on-hit build: item 1419 item 3153 item 3047 item 3124 item 3156 item 3026

Like Vayne, this build's DPS is skewed a bit by bloodrazor's percent health damage, but that percent health damage isn't nearly as significant as Vayne's (Vayne having the equivalent to 4% max health true damage per auto as opposed to Yi's 4% max health physical damage), and his damage also is skewed somewhat downward by bork's current health damage doing the minimum value since the dummy was at 1 hp when I took note of it.

So crit and on-hit Yi have the advantage in DPS on Vayne. A pretty sizable advantage frankly.

As for burst, have you ever played a full build crit Yi? He can legitimately Q>AA a squishy and immediately kill them. Vayne has to auto at least twice, which is slower.